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Should we tank for MacKinnon?

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Old
06-17-2012, 07:37 PM
  #76
groovejuice
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
The idea is that we'll get picked apart without Pleks' tough minutes, and that'll increase the value of our first pick. I think.
Thanks. This is a 'let's get rid of our captain and best centre to move up in the draft'.

Yes that would work. Would also set the team back 5 years.

I hate tankers. Just look at the Oilers.

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06-17-2012, 07:45 PM
  #77
Chris Pronger
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How can we even tank with the team we have? Decent solid 1st,2nd line, one of the best goalie in the league, Solid top 4 D pairs with Gorges,Subban,Markov,Kaberle( replace him with a stay at home D like Sarich if we can sign him)

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06-17-2012, 07:53 PM
  #78
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Thanks. This is a 'let's get rid of our captain and best centre to move up in the draft'.

Yes that would work. Would also set the team back 5 years.

I hate tankers. Just look at the Oilers.
I really really want legit offensive threats on this team. I'm too young to have seen Lafleur, or Mahovlic, or Shutt, or Lemaire. Let alone Beliveau, or Richard. I'm pretty ****ing sick of our top scorers getting 60-70 points.

If we could sign an oft injured shop-worker on an amateur try out and have him be the next 50 in 50 scorer, or buy a whole league just to sign the next 6'4 center and penultimate leader, I'd do it.

But, who's scored 50 in the last few years? It's been Evgeni Malkin, Steven Stamkos, Sidney Crosby, Alexander Ovechkin, Ilya Kovalchuk, Vincent Lecavalier, and Dany Heatley. In that mix are Corey Perry and Jarome Iginla. 8 are top 2 picks, 2, are not.

It becomes clear that unless you're willing to place your bets on there being another class of 2003, and us not ****ing it up this time, or wild Datsyukian out of nowhere homeruns, that in order to get one of these players, you need to get one of these draft picks. One way or the other.

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06-17-2012, 07:57 PM
  #79
Impossible Glory
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That would be the worst possible option.

We can't plan on losing when the season haven't even started yet. Hell, we're not even at the draft... That's a loser mentality. I mean, if there's 20 games or so and you're cleary out of the playoffs, losing is not that bad. But when we are 3 months and half before the season stars? Come on.

It's not like if our team is really bad. Habs are far from contending, but we have a good core, some nice young guys that are developping well and a top 3 pick in less than a week. Plus, a new GM that has the whole summer to fill the holes in the line up.

If we give away enough of our vets to drop low enough to grab Mackinnon, it will set us back by 2-3 years. I think we waited enough not to try to lose for the following years.

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06-17-2012, 07:58 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Impossible Glory View Post
That would be the worst possible option.

We can't plan on losing when the season haven't even started yet. Hell, we're not even at the draft... That's a loser mentality. I mean, if there's 20 games or so and you're cleary out of the playoffs, losing is not that bad. But when we are 3 months and half before the season stars? Come on.

It's not like if our team is really bad. Habs are far from contending, but we have a good core, some nice young guys that are developping well and a top 3 pick in less than a week. Plus, a new GM that has the whole summer to fill the holes in the line up.

If we give away enough of our vets to drop low enough to grab Mackinnon, it will set us back by 2-3 years. I think we waited enough not to try to lose for the following years.
Cammi? Is that you?

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06-17-2012, 07:59 PM
  #81
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Tanking is so stupid. So overused. Instead of tanking, The management should focus more on development of prospects.

As a fan, i want the habs to make the playoffs every year, even if it means 8th seed again.

YOU JUST NEVER KNOW.
Tanking> Denial.

As an equal participant in the NHL why shouldn't we get a 1st overall, 2nd overall and 3rd overall once every 30 years. Why should just let the other teams get the primo players because we have higher moral standards than them, to me that is silly.

If we need and we are entitled, we should allow it to happen.

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06-17-2012, 08:03 PM
  #82
Impossible Glory
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
Cammi? Is that you?
Is that all you have to say to defend your point of view, sir?

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06-17-2012, 08:20 PM
  #83
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Thanks. This is a 'let's get rid of our captain and best centre to move up in the draft'.

Yes that would work. Would also set the team back 5 years.

I hate tankers. Just look at the Oilers.
The Oilers does not have Price nor Subban. They have Hall,RNH,Eberle but they do not have any good pieces in defense and goaltending. It will get worst for them when they drafted Yakupov this year. We already have Price/Subban. On defebse, we already have Tinordi/Beaulieu/Ellis/Dietz who look really imperessing. A couple of elite forward and we will be contender for years. I would rather suffer for one or two more years and then becoming contender for many year to come. We have been looking for 8th place for many years now and it is getting us to nowhere.

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06-17-2012, 08:31 PM
  #84
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Is that all you have to say to defend your point of view, sir?
Lol, I had no idea you responded to any of my posts in the first place?

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06-17-2012, 08:57 PM
  #85
Kimota
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Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
Recipe for MacKinnon/Seth Jones (I like Seth Jones, a future Pronger):

1) Trade Pleks + Nashville 2nd to get Duck's 6th overall pick
2) Trade Gionta at trade deadlines for a 15-20 picks of 2013.

We got both Galchenyuk + Grigorenko and our fanbase will stop fighting about which center should we pick. We got an amazing player in MacKinnon/Seth Jones. We will be a Cup contender in 2/3 years.
I would gadly do those things even if we don't tank. In my opinion we should get another high draft pick(between 4 and 6) and I would use Plek for it. It would make use deep with our young forwards, something we are seriously lacking. All we have is Eller, Leblanc and Galagher.

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06-17-2012, 08:59 PM
  #86
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So you get a full new staff and the idea is to actually tank to get a top 5? Seriously? Only way Habs will tank is by a scenario like we've seen this year. Everything works badly, yet, we never admit we're falling, but we do. But it won't happen this year. At best, prepare yourself by looking at what's coming in year 3 of Therrien and then, maybe you'll have your tanking. Until then, not gonna happen, unless the injuries keeps coming hard.

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06-17-2012, 09:02 PM
  #87
Impossible Glory
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
Lol, I had no idea you responded to any of my posts in the first place?
I just thought that you were saying that because you were disagreeing with what I said, that's why I asked your opinion. Sorry if I misunderstood your joke.

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06-17-2012, 09:07 PM
  #88
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Simply put. Tanking can happen by selling at deadline and admitting defeat but this thread should come up later. You don't tank before season even started. See where we are at after.


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06-17-2012, 09:08 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
Tanking> Denial.

As an equal participant in the NHL why shouldn't we get a 1st overall, 2nd overall and 3rd overall once every 30 years. Why should just let the other teams get the primo players because we have higher moral standards than them, to me that is silly.

If we need and we are entitled, we should allow it to happen.
Denial for thinking that intentionally trading your vets in hopes that you luck your way into getting a 17 year old to bet the entire franchise on is not a good way to build a team?

I mean if we end up being bad again next season becoming a seller makes sense, but to want to be terrible ahead of time is just pathetic and takes away all joy of watching the game.

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06-17-2012, 09:22 PM
  #90
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Denial for thinking that intentionally trading your vets in hopes that you luck your way into getting a 17 year old to bet the entire franchise on is not a good way to build a team?

I mean if we end up being bad again next season becoming a seller makes sense, but to want to be terrible ahead of time is just pathetic and takes away all joy of watching the game.
No, more denial in not recognizing that this team needs some real firepower and it is highly unlikely to come from anything but a draft pick.

It should be priority for our management to add to this element of our franchise: We decided to build from the net out, and we've done that. We have a good crop of D prospects, an excellent goalie who will be entering his prime in another couple of years, and a strong supporting cast of forwards. But lets be honest, we don't have a single forward yet who can change the game.

It remains to be seen if our draft pick this year will be that forward for us, or if he is, will that be enough?

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06-17-2012, 09:31 PM
  #91
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No, more denial in not recognizing that this team needs some real firepower and it is highly unlikely to come from anything but a draft pick.

It should be priority for our management to add to this element of our franchise: We decided to build from the net out, and we've done that. We have a good crop of D prospects, an excellent goalie who will be entering his prime in another couple of years, and a strong supporting cast of forwards. But lets be honest, we don't have a single forward yet who can change the game.

It remains to be seen if our draft pick this year will be that forward for us, or if he is, will that be enough?
And trading all your veterans before the season start to give up might get you that mythical 100 point savior in the draft. Or it might not, when you have as you said, an excellent goalie and good case of defenders, you tend to steal enough games that being the worst team in the league isn't guaranteed.

And if it is, it usually is nothing to be excited about, because it means you are terrible and will need more than one guy to save you. Ask Edmonton, ask the Islanders, the Blue Jackets.

When you build a team to suck, you get more than you bargain for.

I don't think you will find anyone happy with our forward squad right now. I'm not very optimistic about the next season, but I refuse to think we are this bad and need to have another year of this.

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06-17-2012, 09:33 PM
  #92
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The season didn't even start yet, and there's already talks about tanking
Worse, the playoffs just ended a week ago.

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06-17-2012, 09:36 PM
  #93
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I don't know about 'tanking' but I'd be open to selling off some of the veteran players:
Gomez (to minors after a final chance during preseason)
Kaberle (trade after a final chance during preseason)
Bourque (trade after a final chance during preseason)
Gionta (nothing against the player but with Gallagher and Desharnais we can't have 3 sub <5'8 guys in the top 9)
Cole (if the right offer comes along, but might be more useful on the team.)
Markov (if the right offer comes along, need to make sure he can return to form)

IMO trading majority of the guys above wouldn't be considered 'tanking' type trades. It's just shedding cap and getting younger. We can then give extended looks to Palushaj/Geoffrion/Dumont ect who have played in the AHL a while and looking to take the next step. Perhaps add a couple younger mid/late 20s UFAs as roster filler like the Panthers did. If this makes us lose, so be it.

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06-17-2012, 09:40 PM
  #94
Impossible Glory
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I don't know about 'tanking' but I'd be open to selling off some of the veteran players:
Gomez (to minors after a final chance during preseason)
Kaberle (cap dump type trade after a final chance during preseason)
Bourque (cap dump type trade after a final chance during preseason)
Gionta (nothing against the player but with Gallagher and Desharnais we can't have 3 sub <5'8 guys in the top 9)
Cole (if the right offer comes along, but might be more useful on the team.)
Markov (if the right offer comes along, need to make sure he can return to form)

IMO trading majority of the guys above wouldn't be considered 'tanking' type trades. It's just shedding cap and getting younger. We can then give extended looks to Palushaj/Geoffrion/Dumont ect who have played in the AHL a while and looking to take the next step. If this makes us lose, so be it.
This would be a good option to consider if we're not winning by say, december. That'd be perfect. But in June? I don't think that giving up on something that hasn't even started is the best strategy imo.

You never know what can happen in the 3 months we have before the season. And if the injury plague will strike againt...

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06-17-2012, 09:44 PM
  #95
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And trading all your veterans before the season start to give up might get you that mythical 100 point savior in the draft. Or it might not, when you have as you said, an excellent goalie and good case of defenders, you tend to steal enough games that being the worst team in the league isn't guaranteed.

And if it is, it usually is nothing to be excited about, because it means you are terrible and will need more than one guy to save you. Ask Edmonton, ask the Islanders, the Blue Jackets.

When you build a team to suck, you get more than you bargain for.

I don't think you will find anyone happy with our forward squad right now. I'm not very optimistic about the next season, but I refuse to think we are this bad and need to have another year of this.
Half of our better defenseman won't be available until 1/2/3 years from now. We need elite forwards this year and next year. We are not like Edmonton because our best forwards and best defensemen will be ready almost at the same time and we already have elite goaltending.

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06-17-2012, 09:45 PM
  #96
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This would be a good option to consider if we're not winning by say, december. That'd be perfect. But in June? I don't think that giving up on something that hasn't even started is the best strategy imo.

You never know what can happen in the 3 months we have before the season. And if the injury plague will strike againt...
If injury plague hits, we will have trouble trading guys though. I'm taking a page out of Tallon's retool last offseason of the Panthers. I don't agree with everything he did, but I like the concept. We have a better core in place too so I wouldn't be surprised if it works out better.

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06-17-2012, 09:50 PM
  #97
Impossible Glory
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If injury plague hits, we will have trouble trading guys though. I'm taking a page out of Tallon's retool last offseason of the Panthers. I don't agree with everything he did, but I like the concept. We have a better core in place too so I wouldn't be surprised if it works out better.
Good point, it will surely be harder. But still, I'd prefer giving a shot at a new season than selling our vets now. Our at least, if we do, we have to keep some of them to be able to develop our youngster properly, for them to be well surrounded.

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06-17-2012, 09:52 PM
  #98
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And trading all your veterans before the season start to give up might get you that mythical 100 point savior in the draft. Or it might not, when you have as you said, an excellent goalie and good case of defenders, you tend to steal enough games that being the worst team in the league isn't guaranteed.

And if it is, it usually is nothing to be excited about, because it means you are terrible and will need more than one guy to save you. Ask Edmonton, ask the Islanders, the Blue Jackets.

When you build a team to suck, you get more than you bargain for.

I don't think you will find anyone happy with our forward squad right now. I'm not very optimistic about the next season, but I refuse to think we are this bad and need to have another year of this.
Well, I don't think one forward is enough to "save" us either, i.e. bring us the cup, and I addressed this earlier.

It's not so much that we have to tank, it's that we have to address the need for offensive firepower, and this is just one way of addressing the need. There is no sure-fire way of going about addressing this need, but our management should be considering all of them.

What we absolutely cannot do, is go forward without a plan of addressing this need, and we cannot consider options and their prices in isolation from each other.

And, by no means is this the be-all-end-all of moving the team forward: I consider Boston to have built through the draft, even though many of their contributing players in their cup run were second and later round picks. So, obviously with Timmins, this is a big part of the equation too...but **** me, man, we need firepower!

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06-17-2012, 10:54 PM
  #99
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Well, I don't think one forward is enough to "save" us either, i.e. bring us the cup, and I addressed this earlier.

It's not so much that we have to tank, it's that we have to address the need for offensive firepower, and this is just one way of addressing the need. There is no sure-fire way of going about addressing this need, but our management should be considering all of them.

What we absolutely cannot do, is go forward without a plan of addressing this need, and we cannot consider options and their prices in isolation from each other.

And, by no means is this the be-all-end-all of moving the team forward: I consider Boston to have built through the draft, even though many of their contributing players in their cup run were second and later round picks. So, obviously with Timmins, this is a big part of the equation too...but **** me, man, we need firepower!
Well Boston is a case of how you bring in firepower - opportunism. They lucked out with some very good draft picks (Bergeron, Lucic, Krejci), gambled on high reward free agents (Chara), sticking with an identity instead of making panic trades, and pulling the trigger on a good trade when it comes up. Every so often, like all teams, they screw up and use it to draft a high end prospect, yet the two most notable ones were traded away.

Of course they had luck winning the cup - Tim Thomas - but they are usually competitive.

I agree with you that you need a plan, but you need to take things as they come too. Panicing and throwing everything out isn't a plan, it's just another way to gamble. I'd much rather trust the team to draft well, go for in for bringing a free agent or available player who could really make a difference offensively - Semin or Radulov for instance, and then start selling for draft picks if that doesn't work.

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06-17-2012, 11:05 PM
  #100
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I agree with you that you need a plan, but you need to take things as they come too. Panicing and throwing everything out isn't a plan, it's just another way to gamble. I'd much rather trust the team to draft well, go for in for bringing a free agent or available player who could really make a difference offensively - Semin or Radulov for instance, and then start selling for draft picks if that doesn't work.
Semin and Radulov are not winners. They can be lazy at times. These players will bring bad attitudes into the team. I don't want the Habs to offer any thing to these players.

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