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Roster Thoughts and Offseason Speculation for the 2012-2013 Season

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Old
06-17-2012, 09:19 PM
  #201
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I think Stoll resigns and I even think he takes a paycut. Stoll knows what he did and didn't do this season. I also believe Stoll really likes it in LA. I also think Stoll would like to remain on a team with Greene. I also think Stoll doesn't want to leave a team he just won a cup with.

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06-17-2012, 09:33 PM
  #202
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--I think the Kings should get one or two citizen nhl veterans serious to contend for the cup. This could be a subconscious motivator to wanna win one for your veteran teammate. Complacency C*** Block. A couple of people i think fit this bill, as well as work in with the BIG BODIED attitude is Shane Doan and Mike Knuble (6ft3).

--Sure i hate Shane Doan to, and the stuff he said after game 5 was inexcusable, but he did apologize for those comments and admitted to just being overly emotional. The guy is a flat out king killer, and this would eliminate having to face this guy 6 times a year. Doan is a flat out competitor and sure he's made no indication that he wants to leave PHOENIX but because he IS a competitor, drawing him to a CUP CONTENDOR becomes very enticing IMO. Production is still up and he's still in great shape. I say just do a one year deal to try to do it, if it does or does not work, he can sign back to PHX after the season and retire there.

--Knuble had a major statistical drop off in Washington, didn't really keep tabs of why that happened over there but it was significant, however his playoff stats were decent and last time he was a UFA the kings targeted him heavily. Don't think he's won a cup either and could fill out our bottom 6 nicely. I think Dean still likes this guy.

--i'm going to go on a limb and say that one of these guys gets signed. If not both

--I think we lose both Stoll and Penner, Teams overpay for stanley cup experience and i think the offers will just be too good for these guys to turn down. Both have made it known that they would like to stay, but i think the $$$ offered to them just becomes too good to turn down unfortunately.

Brown -- Kopitar -- Williams
Gagne -- Richards -- Doan
Lewis -- Carter -- Knuble
King -- Richardson -- Clifford/Nolan

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Old
06-17-2012, 09:34 PM
  #203
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After the WCF, I don't think Doan would even consider signing here.

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06-17-2012, 09:43 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by losingsand View Post
--I think the Kings should get one or two citizen nhl veterans serious to contend for the cup. This could be a subconscious motivator to wanna win one for your veteran teammate. Complacency C*** Block. A couple of people i think fit this bill, as well as work in with the BIG BODIED attitude is Shane Doan and Mike Knuble (6ft3).

--Sure i hate Shane Doan to, and the stuff he said after game 5 was inexcusable, but he did apologize for those comments and admitted to just being overly emotional. The guy is a flat out king killer, and this would eliminate having to face this guy 6 times a year. Doan is a flat out competitor and sure he's made no indication that he wants to leave PHOENIX but because he IS a competitor, drawing him to a CUP CONTENDOR becomes very enticing IMO. Production is still up and he's still in great shape. I say just do a one year deal to try to do it, if it does or does not work, he can sign back to PHX after the season and retire there.

--Knuble had a major statistical drop off in Washington, didn't really keep tabs of why that happened over there but it was significant, however his playoff stats were decent and last time he was a UFA the kings targeted him heavily. Don't think he's won a cup either and could fill out our bottom 6 nicely. I think Dean still likes this guy.

--i'm going to go on a limb and say that one of these guys gets signed. If not both

--I think we lose both Stoll and Penner, Teams overpay for stanley cup experience and i think the offers will just be too good for these guys to turn down. Both have made it known that they would like to stay, but i think the $$$ offered to them just becomes too good to turn down unfortunately.

Brown -- Kopitar -- Williams
Gagne -- Richards -- Doan
Lewis -- Carter -- Knuble
King -- Richardson -- Clifford/Nolan
Not trying to be rude but that lineup is awful.

Richardson is an awful Center, you saddle Carter with two guys that have ZERO play-making ability.

Carter needs to be set up, he is a shooter. Gagne has not played a full season in what Four years ? (hell he might even retire this year)

Doan is not coming to the Kings.

The first line is fine at least you left that alone.

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Old
06-17-2012, 09:50 PM
  #205
Rusty Batch
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Stoll will never a be a reason why the Kings can't sign someone. So that argument is not going to fly ever.

What exaclty are you some of guys thinking he is going to make ?

How is Stoll making 2.5 mill going to crush the Kings cap ? If the Kings sign Stoll and Penner both at 1 year, 2.5 mill THEY GAIN CAP SPACE>
I disagree completely. It is ALWAYS guys like Stoll that kill a teams Cap space. Over paying Bad players is exactly the reason why teams get in cap trouble. Stoll can be replaced by Lokti for about 2 mil less. That means we are adding 2 mil to our payroll for stoll.

Stoll at 2.5-3mil Has almost ZERO trade value. Lets say Hypothetically we were to overpay for a guy like Parise in order to get him. I would much rather overspend by 2 mil on a star then overspend by 2 mil on Stoll.

See Rick Nash he is (allegedly) overpaid and yet teams still are lining up to give up big time assets for the privalege of his contract.

Your cap is never negativeley impacted by star players, only by overpaying non contributors. If you cant sign a star player because you have too many star players then simply trade one of them for great young assets.

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06-17-2012, 09:53 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Rusty Batch View Post
I disagree completely. It is ALWAYS guys like Stoll that kill a teams Cap space. Over paying Bad players is exactly the reason why teams get in cap trouble. Stoll can be replaced by Lokti for about 2 mil less. That means we are adding 2 mil to our payroll for stoll.

Stoll at 2.5-3mil Has almost ZERO trade value. Lets say Hypothetically we were to overpay for a guy like Parise in order to get him. I would much rather overspend by 2 mil on a star then overspend by 2 mil on Stoll.

See Rick Nash he is (allegedly) overpaid and yet teams still are lining up to give up big time assets for the privalege of his contract.

Your cap is never negativeley impacted by star players, only by overpaying non contributors. If you cant sign a star player because you have too many star players then simply trade one of them for great young assets.
Stoll , Penner , Fraser will all COMBINED make less than what Parise gets. IF the Kings return them on fair contracts.

Signing a player like Nash to that awful contract is how you destroy your team.

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06-17-2012, 09:54 PM
  #207
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People seem to think Loki can step right in and be a quality 3C, I just don't see it. He has too much finesse to his game for that role, can't win board battles like Stoll does and can't win face-offs.

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06-17-2012, 09:56 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by KopitarFAN View Post
People seem to think Loki can step right in and be a quality 3C, I just don't see it. He has too much finesse to his game for that role, can't win board battles like Stoll does and can't win face-offs.
NAH we can just plug guys in ......Cause that worked sooooo well to start the season right ???

There is a reason Loki spent most of the Sutter tenure on the bench and in the AHL.... He is not ready.

Loki has a lot of work to do.


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Old
06-17-2012, 10:26 PM
  #209
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Just say no to Shane Doan. He will be another Blake or Smyth.

Iginla, would love to add, because the guy is just full of class and would love to see Brown hand him the Cup first next season, but that price tag is really high.

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06-17-2012, 10:32 PM
  #210
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Just say no to Shane Doan. He will be another Blake or Smyth.

Iginla, would love to add, because the guy is just full of class and would love to see Brown hand him the Cup first next season, but that price tag is really high.
On Iginla, when you say "price tag" are you talking about his cap hit, or what he would cost in a trade? If the latter, I would agree. If the former, he only has 1 year left.

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06-17-2012, 10:41 PM
  #211
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iginla's cap shouldn't be a problem since it's his last year. he's a nice plan b if the kigns strike out on suter or parise.

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06-17-2012, 11:10 PM
  #212
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As far as our main UFA's:

I believe Stoll re-signs.
I believe Fraser re-signs.

Fraser is a 4th line center with grit (and I can't think of anyone else in the org with Fraser's grit that could fill that 4th line center role (and no, Richardson is not the answer). He'll stay. Stoll as a 3rd line center is an ideal role for him. He's valuable in face-offs and on the PK even though he will continue to miss the net most of the time.

Penner is dependent on what happens early in July. If the Kings land Parise, Penner won't be re-signed.

I have no idea about Bernier in terms of time frame. He will get traded, but I'm not sure when... mainly because it's so unclear to me what Dean would be looking for in return. The Kings are deep enough now to win a Cup for the next several years.

I remember saying that this decade would be when the Kings window would be open to win a Cup, and here we are in 2012 and they've won it already. There is still 3-4 years left where this group as a whole will be in their prime and 8 years left where most of the team will be in their prime.

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Old
06-17-2012, 11:12 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by KopitarFAN View Post
People seem to think Loki can step right in and be a quality 3C, I just don't see it. He has too much finesse to his game for that role, can't win board battles like Stoll does and can't win face-offs.
completely agree, he has no place on our team because of Kopitar, Richards and Carter. Would rather have another defensively solid big body if possible,

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Old
06-17-2012, 11:21 PM
  #214
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iginla's cap shouldn't be a problem since it's his last year. he's a nice plan b if the kigns strike out on suter or parise.
I would love Iggy on this team. 1 year contract, long summer layoff and a thirst to get the cup. He adds scoring and size and is a solid locker room presence. The best thing is, like a Brown, he can change the course of a game with a goal, a play or a hit.

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06-17-2012, 11:22 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by bobafettish View Post
iginla's cap shouldn't be a problem since it's his last year. he's a nice plan b if the kigns strike out on suter or parise.
What are we going to give? They're going to want much more than just Bernier.

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06-17-2012, 11:29 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Stoll , Penner , Fraser will all COMBINED make less than what Parise gets. IF the Kings return them on fair contracts.

Signing a player like Nash to that awful contract is how you destroy your team.
You have to realize that you are wrong here. How is giving Nash that contract hurting Columbus, when they can get rid of it whenever they want and likeley get a kings ransom back for it?

And thats the whole point. If we sign Parise and later decide we dont want him we can (assuming he stays at a similar talent level) trade him for some teams best prospect+1st round pick+A solid NHL player.

So How could that possibly hurt us?

Again teams are never hurt by their best players contracts. Teams are however hurt by overpaying mediocre players. As a franchise you should always strive to have a good enough pipeline to fill the least important half of your roster with cheap young players. Which should free up the cap space to spend money on the Most importnt half of your roster.

Kings are in preciseley this spot,

Forwards
King-Nolan-Loti-Lewis-Clifford
then behind them
Toffoli-Vey-Cloche-Shore-Kozun-Holloway etc...

Defense

Same thing

Goalies

Same thing...

It would be a mistake to sign guys like Stoll and Fraser, same thing with Scuderi next year.

Penner is a different story if we sign him we are assuming he will be a top 6 player for us going forward. Makes sense to sign a guy like that if we truly believe he is capable of a roll like that.

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06-17-2012, 11:32 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by KopitarFAN View Post
People seem to think Loki can step right in and be a quality 3C, I just don't see it. He has too much finesse to his game for that role, can't win board battles like Stoll does and can't win face-offs.
And what are these faceoffs and board victories doing for us? They sure as hell arent resulting in goals...

People exagerate the impact of faceoffs, especcially when you are winning them to bottom six players.

All of his minor penalties and his inability to put points on the board negate his faceoffs, board battles, and intangibles.

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06-17-2012, 11:32 PM
  #218
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What are we going to give? They're going to want much more than just Bernier.
That's the problem. Only prospects we have that are worth a damn are Loki, Bernier, Toffoli and Forbort.

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06-17-2012, 11:38 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Rusty Batch View Post
And what are these faceoffs and board victories doing for us? They sure as hell arent resulting in goals...

People exagerate the impact of faceoffs, especcially when you are winning them to bottom six players.

All of his minor penalties and his inability to put points on the board negate his faceoffs, board battles, and intangibles.
So what's Loktionov going to bring if he's not producing as a third line center and can't win faceoffs or play physically? Lewis and Richardson are better wingers than they are centers, so then the Kings will be left with a big hole to fill on the 3rd line.

It's also nice to have a defensively responsible center who can match up well against any line the opposing team ices and gives the Kings an option to rest their top two centers. As unproductive as Stoll was during the regular season, he was one of the more physical players on the team. Unfortunately, that type of intense and physical game is going to result into penalties from time to time.

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06-17-2012, 11:51 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
So what's Loktionov going to bring if he's not producing as a third line center and can't win faceoffs or play physically? Lewis and Richardson are better wingers than they are centers, so then the Kings will be left with a big hole to fill on the 3rd line.
Well we could easily play Kopitar, Carter, and Richards at Center. To be Honest it probably makes the mot sense Philly did it in a similar situation.

All three of them are more then capable of carrying a line and it doesnt get much better then Richards as far as a "ideal 3rd line center" is concerne. He's just that a 3rd line center on steroids.

Even wihout signing anoter wing Im sure that we could use these 6 forwards: Williams, Brown, Penner, Gagne, King, Lokti. In some combination to ill out the rest of ourtop 9. If you add Parise tothat group then it is stacked. And we still have guys like Clifford, Nolan, Lewis, etc... behind them to fill in a top 9 spot if neeed.

The point is we have zero need for a 3rd line cener. Especcially one that puts up a point every 4 games.

We have one of the best second line centers in the league playing Wing(Cater).And if we want to keep him there we have a top 50 prospect in the NHL (Lokti) who is a 22 year old center that has already more then proven himself in he AHL.

We also have Lewis behind all of this center talent.

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06-17-2012, 11:56 PM
  #221
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How is giving Nash that contract hurting Columbus?
Are you serious? Are you for real?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Batch View Post
It would be a mistake to sign guys like Stoll and Fraser, same thing with Scuderi next year.
Ok so you are serious. Good grief.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Batch View Post
And what are these faceoffs and board victories doing for us? They sure as hell arent resulting in goals...

People exagerate the impact of faceoffs, especcially when you are winning them to bottom six players.
Dude, you need to quit while you're already behind.

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Old
06-18-2012, 12:15 AM
  #222
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Are you serious? Are you for real?

.
lol... You think Nash is the reason Columbus is terrible??? He is the lone bright spot on the team. So in your opinion it would be better just to have let him go in FA then to sign him?

So get nothing for him, instead of keeping him until you want to trade him and then trading him for a ridiculous amount of talent...

Remember a couple months ago when many of us were willing to give up Brown-Bernier-and a draft pick for that contract? Or basically everyone here was willing to give up Bernier, Lokti, Slava, and a first round pick for him?

So yeah I can't imagine how having an asset like Nash can hurt a franchise...

If you dont want him then trade him... End of story.

My rebuttal to the rest of your post is simple. You cant keep everyone... Guys like Scuderi, Stoll, Fraser, etc... at some point need to be replaced by cheap young players within your franchsie, in order to keep and/or add elite talent.

It's just the way a good franchise is run, if you value poor production but great intangibles on a declining 30 year old center too much then you might regret it later when it is time to resign your Star captain or your Conn Smythe/Vezina Goalie.

It's reality.

Any perceived loss of production when replacing Stoll with Lokti is not worth 2 mil. Stolls role is just not important enough even if your right and I'm wrong about Stoll.

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06-18-2012, 12:53 AM
  #223
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What would be a good offer for E. Kane? Bernier, Toffoli, Martinez, 1st rounder? Too much? Not enough?

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Old
06-18-2012, 12:58 AM
  #224
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Stoll's season was terrible but he shone in the playoffs.

Face-offs are important (extremely important) and to use that aspect as a bargaining chip to dump Stoll is really a bad idea. Just look at New Jersey's forecheck throughout the entire series (okay, forget periods 2 and 3 in the final game, when their spirit was already crushed)...winning faceoffs enabled that forechecking and cost us at least three goals in the series that I am aware of.

Although I argued for dumping Stoll and Lewis (and even Penner) during the regular season, I now say keep Stoll, Penner, and Fraser as well.

I still think Lewis is expendable. He did well in game 6 (great game), but there is no better bet in hockey that this guy will flub a breakaway anytime he has the chance. Hands of stone.

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06-18-2012, 01:00 AM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Rusty Batch View Post

My rebuttal to the rest of your post is simple. You cant keep everyone... Guys like Scuderi, Stoll, Fraser, etc... at some point need to be replaced by cheap young players within your franchsie, in order to keep and/or add elite talent.
I think it's probably best to keep these guys if possible. I wouldn't overpay for them but they were very important. You need these veteran players. Providing they don't prevent the resigning of our stars. Fraser has pulled the 4th line together, Scuderi has been a rock and Stoll is a useful glue player.
There is no point promoting junior players if they aren't as good if we can still afford to carry our current roster.

We have a young team as it is, especially with Nolan and King being promoted.

About the only thing i'd do other than resign our current crew, is try and pry Kane out of winnipeg. He would solve our LW for years.

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