HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Should we tank for MacKinnon?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-18-2012, 12:18 AM
  #101
Stradale
Registered User
 
Stradale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,000
vCash: 500
This getting ridiculous.. we are like 4 months before the season starts and we already have a thread about tanking the season. Seriously, where's the pride. One of the greatest sports team in history is talking about forfeiting the season before it even starts.

Stradale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 12:55 AM
  #102
NotProkofievian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
Semin and Radulov are not winners. They can be lazy at times. These players will bring bad attitudes into the team. I don't want the Habs to offer any thing to these players.
I think Radulov's a good bet actually: I think he'll come quite undervalued because of the "Russian" thing and the oh so public "missed curfew."

I think he could come cheap for his production: an undervalued asset.

NotProkofievian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 01:06 AM
  #103
NotProkofievian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Well Boston is a case of how you bring in firepower - opportunism. They lucked out with some very good draft picks (Bergeron, Lucic, Krejci), gambled on high reward free agents (Chara), sticking with an identity instead of making panic trades, and pulling the trigger on a good trade when it comes up. Every so often, like all teams, they screw up and use it to draft a high end prospect, yet the two most notable ones were traded away.

Of course they had luck winning the cup - Tim Thomas - but they are usually competitive.

I agree with you that you need a plan, but you need to take things as they come too. Panicing and throwing everything out isn't a plan, it's just another way to gamble. I'd much rather trust the team to draft well, go for in for bringing a free agent or available player who could really make a difference offensively - Semin or Radulov for instance, and then start selling for draft picks if that doesn't work.
Well, it's not panicking and throwing everything out, though. It's trading pleks while is value is quite high. It's getting a return on your asset.

I think there's room for both opportunism, and "tanking." Which is the fundamental reason why Edmonton is always doing so poorly. Steve Tambellini has made no effort whatsoever to do anything to improve his team's present capability. It's not because they're getting all these great prospects that the idea of drafting high is "bad."

While I think that Radulov may be an undervalued asset come July 1st, I don't think that's really a move for the future, and I don't think it's really addressing the need for go to "showtime" fire power up front.

NotProkofievian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 05:00 AM
  #104
Agnostic
11 Stanley Cups
 
Agnostic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,413
vCash: 500
This team will be near the bottom regardless of any conscious decision made to "tank".

Agnostic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 05:56 AM
  #105
WhiskeySeven
H0CKEYY1NS1DERR
 
WhiskeySeven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 16,233
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
This team will be near the bottom regardless of any conscious decision made to "tank".
Your contributions over the past howevermanymonths have been the same sentence in so many words. Quite a skill you've got there - to predict how this team will look next season with a GM who's been at helm for less than 8 weeks, a coach with 0 face-time with any of the players and a 3rd overall pick and tons of capspace coming up.


WhiskeySeven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 06:36 AM
  #106
Kriss E
HFB Partner
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 25,425
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
Well, it's not panicking and throwing everything out, though. It's trading pleks while is value is quite high. It's getting a return on your asset.

I think there's room for both opportunism, and "tanking." Which is the fundamental reason why Edmonton is always doing so poorly. Steve Tambellini has made no effort whatsoever to do anything to improve his team's present capability. It's not because they're getting all these great prospects that the idea of drafting high is "bad."

While I think that Radulov may be an undervalued asset come July 1st, I don't think that's really a move for the future, and I don't think it's really addressing the need for go to "showtime" fire power up front.
Not sure how you don't see signing Radulov a move for the future. The guy won't sign here for a year or two, or anywhere else for that matter.

As for trading Plekanec, the return better be really high to the point where we come out a a clear winner of that trade. Plekanec is a solid center, one of the better 2way ones in the NHL, he is a great example for the kids. You need guys like him. So unless the offer is too good to refuse, you keep him here.
Tambellini didn't do a great job in Edmonton because his defensive squad hasn't been addressed.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 09:46 AM
  #107
Davebo
BeepBeep!
 
Davebo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,910
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YourBuddy View Post
I don't like the new way of thinking on hockey in Montreal.

So the Kings didn't inspire you in any way shape or form right ?

Maurice Richard would be turning in his grave listening to the newer generation of hockey fans in our city.
Well said. You like tanking? Move to ****ing pittsburgh...

Davebo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 10:59 AM
  #108
NotProkofievian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Not sure how you don't see signing Radulov a move for the future. The guy won't sign here for a year or two, or anywhere else for that matter.
I don't see him as part of a "core." I see him as a hired gun who can score some goals for us, like a Ryder in Boston. I think he's a good bet, as I said before, but signing Radulov doesn't make me think "oh thank goodness, now that we've got that done..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
As for trading Plekanec, the return better be really high to the point where we come out a a clear winner of that trade. Plekanec is a solid center, one of the better 2way ones in the NHL, he is a great example for the kids. You need guys like him. So unless the offer is too good to refuse, you keep him here.
Tambellini didn't do a great job in Edmonton because his defensive squad hasn't been addressed.
The return would be pretty awesome, I'd have to think, and I don't think his value's going to be any higher than what it is now. The decision would have to be predicated on two things:

1.) By the time we are going for the cup, Plekanec won't be who he is today.

2.) At this point, Plekanec's value is likely to get us assets which will prove very valuable for when we are going for the cup.

I think both are very likely true. If you accept these things to be true, you have a choice to make: move to get value for Plekanec, increase the value of next years draft pick, or disregard this, and hold Plekanec until he retires, hoping we end up getting the offensive 'gamebreaker' or two somehow else ie. signing Radulov.

NotProkofievian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 11:02 AM
  #109
NotProkofievian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davebo View Post
Well said. You like tanking? Move to ****ing pittsburgh...
Yeah, except at this point you may as well say "you like having a legitimate shot at the cup every year? MOVE TO PITTSBURGH!"

NotProkofievian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 11:10 AM
  #110
BobbyFischer*
 
BobbyFischer*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,864
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davebo View Post
Well said. You like tanking? Move to ****ing pittsburgh...
Or rather... move to Edmonton.

BobbyFischer* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 11:32 AM
  #111
CHfan1
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Sherwood Park, Ab
Posts: 323
vCash: 500
I don't think Montreal was as bad as their 3rd worst record last year and will bounce back. I can't seem them 'tanking' unless they start trading away established players, ie. Plekanec and Subban, for picks/prospects.

Last year of the bottom 10 teams they had the best goals for/goals against at -14.

They had a terrible shootout record, and went 7-16 in OT/shootout games.

They had over 400 games lost to injury

They had a horrible GM in PG.

I see them improving next year, maybe not enough to make the play-offs, but I can't see them finishing last, unless injuries creep up on them.

CHfan1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 11:34 AM
  #112
Et le But
Moderator
 
Et le But's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York
Country: Argentina
Posts: 18,171
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
This team will be near the bottom regardless of any conscious decision made to "tank".
8th is indeed the new 1st.

Et le But is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 11:35 AM
  #113
Strokes
Registered User
 
Strokes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 40
vCash: 500
People it's just a question. Is the brightest question, maybe not. But there's no reason for you to bash the kid for it.

Let's just see what happens this offseason, will Bergie make deals to help out the roster immediately? Or will Bergie make long term cautious deals throughout his reign in Montreal?

As for myself I'm not a fan off tanking for the sake of tanking, yes you'll get a great chance of getting a stud, but teaching the young guys on your team that losing is acceptable is the wrong way to handle your organization. In the end if the team is playing the **** like last season, then it won't be that hard to end up with a top 5 pick.

Strokes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 11:42 AM
  #114
Teufelsdreck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 15,001
vCash: 500
The notion of tanking is preposterous. If the players were told to take it easy, someone with any pride at all would leak the news and create a scandal.

Teufelsdreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 11:44 AM
  #115
beowulf
Not a nice guy.
 
beowulf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 39,425
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to beowulf
I rather have a winning team, one that makes the playoffs with room to spare. Only way I hope to get him is via a smart trade or if it is another injury riddled season and the team ends up at the bottom of the standings again.

beowulf is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 11:48 AM
  #116
MTL-rules
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,502
vCash: 500
Let's have this conversation near trade deadline next year, shall we ?

MTL-rules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 04:34 PM
  #117
SouthernHab
Not a Fanboy
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 12,238
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
This getting ridiculous.. we are like 4 months before the season starts and we already have a thread about tanking the season. Seriously, where's the pride. One of the greatest sports team in history is talking about forfeiting the season before it even starts.
I agree 100%.

Too many people are still thinking with the mindset of Pierre Gauthier.

We have an entire new mindset in management that is a complete 180 of what we have seen for so many years from Gainey and Gauthier.

But tanking is an option for some.......

SouthernHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 04:39 PM
  #118
Andros777
Registered User
 
Andros777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 693
vCash: 500
The players would never tank. To them, every healthy season is a blessing, they only have a limited amount of time to play in this league, most of them. Why would they fart around for a year so that we can draft a bunch of kids to come in and take their roster spots and their contracts.

Andros777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 04:42 PM
  #119
SouthernHab
Not a Fanboy
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 12,238
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHfan1 View Post
I don't think Montreal was as bad as their 3rd worst record last year and will bounce back. I can't seem them 'tanking' unless they start trading away established players, ie. Plekanec and Subban, for picks/prospects.

Last year of the bottom 10 teams they had the best goals for/goals against at -14.

They had a terrible shootout record, and went 7-16 in OT/shootout games.

They had over 400 games lost to injury

They had a horrible GM in PG.

I see them improving next year, maybe not enough to make the play-offs, but I can't see them finishing last, unless injuries creep up on them.
Also agree.

What hurt the Habs the most last season was PG not getting strong NHL defensemen (Weber/Campoli/Diaz/Kaberle just dont cut it) and having a very soft team playing a passive defense and a dump and chase offense compliments of Martin.

All this team needs is one or two more forwards who can score, one forward who is tough to skate on the 4th line with White and Staubitz and two BIG and tough DMen capable of clearing out the crease and fight.

We dont need a rebuild. Just a few more parts to be successful.

SouthernHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 04:51 PM
  #120
beowulf
Not a nice guy.
 
beowulf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 39,425
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to beowulf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
I don't know about 'tanking' but I'd be open to selling off some of the veteran players:
Gomez (to minors after a final chance during preseason)
Kaberle (trade after a final chance during preseason)
Bourque (trade after a final chance during preseason)
Gionta (nothing against the player but with Gallagher and Desharnais we can't have 3 sub <5'8 guys in the top 9)
Cole (if the right offer comes along, but might be more useful on the team.)
Markov (if the right offer comes along, need to make sure he can return to form)

IMO trading majority of the guys above wouldn't be considered 'tanking' type trades. It's just shedding cap and getting younger. We can then give extended looks to Palushaj/Geoffrion/Dumont ect who have played in the AHL a while and looking to take the next step. Perhaps add a couple younger mid/late 20s UFAs as roster filler like the Panthers did. If this makes us lose, so be it.
This would definitively be tanking. First 3 maybe not but once you add Gionta, Cole and Markov and you talk about shedding cap etc then yes this would be tanking.

beowulf is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 04:53 PM
  #121
JustAHabFan
Registered User
 
JustAHabFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
All this team needs is one or two more forwards who can score, one forward who is tough to skate on the 4th line with White and Staubitz and two BIG and tough DMen capable of clearing out the crease and fight.

We dont need a rebuild. Just a few more parts to be successful.
That's a lot of parts for us to get.

JustAHabFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 04:55 PM
  #122
Haaabs
Registered User
 
Haaabs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal
Posts: 461
vCash: 500
Tanking is a waste of time. Edmonton's Stanley Cup has apparently become getting the #1 overall pick in the draft.

Haaabs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 05:12 PM
  #123
WeThreeKings
DJ Nikita
 
WeThreeKings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 38,334
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Honestly though, we go in to this season with our best foot forward, if we are on the outside looking in come trade deadline, we have to make a decision..

Our two biggest commodities would be Plekanec and Markov. Safe to say we can get a top prospect and a 1st round pick for each of them.
Bourque could maybe net us a 3rd round pick and a mid-range prospect.
Gionta a 2nd rounder and a decent prospect.
Kaberle might net us a pick.
Moen would net us a 3rd round selection.

Imagine going into the 2013 draft with a lottery pick, 2 extra firsts, and 5 second round picks. You could easily trade into any spot you wanted to with that amount of ammunition.

Farfetched and completely improbable, but its fun to salivate at the thought before reality kicks you in the ass again.

WeThreeKings is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 06:28 PM
  #124
Kimota
Nation of Poutine
 
Kimota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: La Vieille Capitale
Country: France
Posts: 22,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
I don't know about 'tanking' but I'd be open to selling off some of the veteran players:
Gomez (to minors after a final chance during preseason)
Kaberle (trade after a final chance during preseason)
Bourque (trade after a final chance during preseason)
Gionta (nothing against the player but with Gallagher and Desharnais we can't have 3 sub <5'8 guys in the top 9)
Cole (if the right offer comes along, but might be more useful on the team.)
Markov (if the right offer comes along, need to make sure he can return to form)

IMO trading majority of the guys above wouldn't be considered 'tanking' type trades. It's just shedding cap and getting younger. We can then give extended looks to Palushaj/Geoffrion/Dumont ect who have played in the AHL a while and looking to take the next step. Perhaps add a couple younger mid/late 20s UFAs as roster filler like the Panthers did. If this makes us lose, so be it.
In your list, Habs should keep Cole and DD and lose the rest.

Kimota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-18-2012, 06:29 PM
  #125
Agnostic
11 Stanley Cups
 
Agnostic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,413
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Your contributions over the past howevermanymonths have been the same sentence in so many words. Quite a skill you've got there - to predict how this team will look next season with a GM who's been at helm for less than 8 weeks, a coach with 0 face-time with any of the players and a 3rd overall pick and tons of capspace coming up.

Reality must be hard for you, but predicting based on the known situation is much more reliable than predicting based on a fantasy world that has all the best free agents coming to the 28th place team, an unknown draft pick being a game changer as a young teenager, and thinking every player on the roster is a victim of bad luck and bad coaching.

This team is bad, just as you are as an assessor of talent or anything for that matter. But I guess you'd rather say all the trite and stupid things over being seen as a downer on a hockey board.

Agnostic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:58 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.