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Old
06-18-2012, 10:28 AM
  #51
hawksfan50
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1. JJ's assertion Smith is some kind of face-off great is absurd--he was a slight bit short of 50% ...

2. Ottawa indicated it is shopping the 15th overall for immediate help ..why not something like Hammer + our 2nd rounder this year the 15th +SMITH and our 2014 3rd rounder?


With the 15th and the 18th we could get one of the 3 big centre prospects (Faksa,Hertl,or Jankowski) and either Subban or Vasilevski for a blue chip goalie prospect ...

It would be a gamble for immdiate d- help in that Stan must be certain he can land Suter OR he'd need a pLAN "B" to get some other experienced d-help for the 2nd pairing..BUT with such a deal STAN could make his DRAFT SPLASH...

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06-18-2012, 10:30 AM
  #52
coldsteelonice84
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Stan's made enough draft splashes, it's time to start dealing the high picks away for immediate help.

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06-18-2012, 10:54 AM
  #53
Paul Allen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawksfan50 View Post
1. JJ's assertion Smith is some kind of face-off great is absurd--he was a slight bit short of 50% ...

2. Ottawa indicated it is shopping the 15th overall for immediate help ..why not something like Hammer + our 2nd rounder this year the 15th +SMITH and our 2014 3rd rounder?


With the 15th and the 18th we could get one of the 3 big centre prospects (Faksa,Hertl,or Jankowski) and either Subban or Vasilevski for a blue chip goalie prospect ...

It would be a gamble for immdiate d- help in that Stan must be certain he can land Suter OR he'd need a pLAN "B" to get some other experienced d-help for the 2nd pairing..BUT with such a deal STAN could make his DRAFT SPLASH...
Or package the 15th and 18th to move up to the top 10 and snag grigorenko. Then sign Suter.

Saad-Toews-Kane
Sharp-Grigorenko-Hossa
Stalberg-Bolland-Shaw
Mayers-Smith-Carcillo

Keith-Seabrook
Suter-Leddy
Oduya-Monty

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Old
06-18-2012, 11:26 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Paul Allen View Post
Or package the 15th and 18th to move up to the top 10 and snag grigorenko. Then sign Suter.

Saad-Toews-Kane
Sharp-Grigorenko-Hossa
Stalberg-Bolland-Shaw
Mayers-Smith-Carcillo

Keith-Seabrook
Suter-Leddy
Oduya-Monty
Because packaging the 15th and 18th wont get grigorenko and we would have to risk that on the fact that we might not be able to get Suter...Since free agency starts june 1st

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06-18-2012, 11:41 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by ChiHawk21 View Post
Because packaging the 15th and 18th wont get grigorenko and we would have to risk that on the fact that we might not be able to get Suter...Since free agency starts june 1st
Why would they not get grigs if they move to the top 10? People are thinking he will drop a bit.

Fa starts july 1st btw. Either way, if hammer is traded there would be a risk for finding a replacement anyway

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Old
06-18-2012, 12:14 PM
  #56
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If they can use 15 and 18 and prospects to grab a top tier defenseman in a trade, then sure.

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Old
06-18-2012, 12:44 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Oduya >> Hjalmarsson

Oduya blocks shots like Hammer
Oduya is far better offensively and moving the puck
Oduya hits just as little as Hammer does
Hammer is only slightly better defensively, if at all

And I like Hammer.
im baffled by this post

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Old
06-18-2012, 12:46 PM
  #58
coldsteelonice84
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Originally Posted by madgoat33 View Post
im baffled by this post
Oduya is signed longterm. Hammer is involved in trade rumors. Hence, player more likely to stay with the Blackhawks = better because we love our Blackhawks oh so much!!!! Get it?

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06-18-2012, 02:07 PM
  #59
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So what is Hjalmarsson better at exactly?

blocks a couple more shots....probably .2 more per game... wippty do.

Oduya is a better skater with the puck
Oduya get's more points
Oduya fits our system far better, whether you like the system or not.
Oduya is a better passer
Oduya makes less money
Giveaways Oduya 36, Hjalmarsson 50 in less games

Hammer is better at the defensive side of the game, and even that is arguable based off of his play last year.

..and like I said, I like Hammer.


Last edited by Hawkaholic: 06-18-2012 at 02:14 PM.
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Old
06-18-2012, 02:08 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
I like the way they play but I firmly believe we are a worse team after that 2 for 2 trade. Hammer cannot go, periord. I don't even like our D that much with him still here. Take him out of the equation and it is a major weakness that we will not overcome and it could cost us a playoff spot. We should be giving up our 1st + another pick and/or prospect for those two from Ottawa, not subtracting vital pieces from the roster.
I also like the way Smith and Foligno play. Like he said, they are needed on the lines. Both have enough skill, too, especially Foligno. As far as another D-man goes, we could sign another one no problem. They might not be as good as Nik, but can be solid #5 guys. We would be stronger up front on the forecheck and applying more pressure in the o-zone which would help us with the d-zone

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Old
06-18-2012, 02:36 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Oduya is signed longterm. Hammer is involved in trade rumors. Hence, player more likely to stay with the Blackhawks = better because we love our Blackhawks oh so much!!!! Get it?
Remember kids, if you don't agree with coldsteel, you're obviously a blind homer.

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Old
06-18-2012, 02:39 PM
  #62
coldsteelonice84
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
Remember kids, if you don't agree with coldsteel, you're obviously a blind homer.
Give me a break, he said Oduya was better than Hammer and broke down every aspect of their game and concluded Oduya was better in every facet. I think he may have said it was debatable if Hammer was better in the defensive zone, but otherwise, a clean sweep for Oduya, and oh yeah, gets paid less too.

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Old
06-18-2012, 02:47 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
You really believe that?
there is some truth behind that. I'd keep both unless we get Parise and need the Cap Dump.

Other than that, Hjammer = Oduya with Oduya looking to be a better fit for Qs System

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Old
06-18-2012, 03:24 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
Remember kids, if you don't agree with coldsteel, you're obviously a blind homer.
Too true. Him and Bobby.

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Old
06-18-2012, 03:27 PM
  #65
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If you're talking out of your ass like a blind homer, you get called out on it. Jackman and Hammer are crushing Oduya at the polls. So I think it is more like, back the Hawks up on their moves or we don't want to hear what you have to say, isn't it?

That may work fine for you when you snuggle up with your Tommy Hawk doll at night but in the real world, we need to be objective about the team.

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Old
06-18-2012, 03:31 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
If you're talking out of your ass like a blind homer, you get called out on it. Jackman and Hammer are crushing Oduya at the polls. So I think it is more like, back the Hawks up on their moves or we don't want to hear what you have to say, isn't it?
OMG! HFBoards thinks Jackman is better than Oduya?? That makes it soo truuuue.

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06-18-2012, 03:34 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
If you're talking out of your ass like a blind homer, you get called out on it. Jackman and Hammer are crushing Oduya at the polls. So I think it is more like, back the Hawks up on their moves or we don't want to hear what you have to say, isn't it?

That may work fine for you when you snuggle up with your Tommy Hawk doll at night but in the real world, we need to be objective about the team.
Objectively, Oduya is better than Jackman and objectively, Oduya does alot of things better than Hammer or just as well as him.

The majority of HFBoards doesn't watch the St.Louis Blues or Chicago Blackhawks play.. but, if enough posters say somethings true, it must be.. right?

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Old
06-18-2012, 03:57 PM
  #68
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Let's see what each does well and poorly...

Oduya...
+= Has a good breakout pass, good skater, decent poise along the blueline, average at best positional D skills
-= Not good along the defensive boards, doesn't clear the crease, no physical game, prone to bad turnovers, crumbles under pressure
Summary= Decent puck mover who is prone to bad turnovers, no PP or PK ability, bad in his own zone

Jackman...
+= Very sound along the boards and in front of his own net, willing to engage physically and stand up for his team, excellent PKer
-= Prone to mental lapses, not much offensive game
Summary= Very solid SAH d man who will eat big minutes on the PK, needs a PMD as a partner to be effective

Hjalmarsson...
+= Excellent positional d man, sound but not great along the boards, underdeveloped offensive tool set, is willing to play the body but has backed off it recently, young
-= Seems to struggle with NA game still, has not developed his game since 2010, lacks awareness in the offensive end
Summary= Still developing SAH d man who is very good in his own end and a solid 2nd pairing guy, needs more work on his transition and offensive game.

So, in terms of aspects of their game...
Oduya: Offensive- Average, Defensive- Below average, Transition- Average
Jackman: Offensive- Below Average, Defensive- Above Average, Transition- Below Average
Hjalmarsson: Offensive- Below Average, Defensive- Above Average, Transition- Below Average

What does this say? Basically that Hjalmarsson are both very good 2nd pairing stay at home d men, Hjalmarsson further has potential to develop his game and become a solid 2 way player. Oduya is an average at best PMD who is bad in his own end.

What does this team need? Well we have three better PMD than Oduya already (Keith, Leddy, Seabrook) and have only one better SAH d man than either Jackman or Hjalmarsson (Seabrook). SO it's safe to say we need at least one more SAH d man.

What pairing player does this team need? It was obvious after the last two years that so many minutes wear on our top pairing (Keith in particular) so we need a solid second pairing to ease the pressure. Only Jackman and Hammer are capable, NHL quality second pairing guys.

So, in terms of need, Hammer > Jackman > Oduya.

I rank Hammer over Jackman due to his age and, I believe, untapped transition skill set.

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Old
06-18-2012, 04:00 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Oduya's breakout pass is not as good as Hammer's because it goes to the other team far too often. At least Hammer gets it out of the zone the vast majority of the time.
Hammer's "breakout" pass is to chip the puck off the glass to the opposing defense.

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Old
06-18-2012, 04:00 PM
  #70
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Oduya sucked the last like 10 games of the regular season too. "but he was playing 25 min a night!!!!". Yea, and getting ample PP time and still had like 1 point in 10 games and was playing mediocre(at best) defense. Using TOI that q dishes out as evidence that a guy wasn't playing poorly is dumb. He's a pretty good skater, plays meh defense and occasionally makes a nice pass.

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Old
06-18-2012, 04:02 PM
  #71
coldsteelonice84
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
Hammer's "breakout" pass is to chip the puck off the glass to the opposing defense.
I'd rather give it to them off the glass in the neutral zone than right on the tape in our own zone.

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06-18-2012, 04:03 PM
  #72
coldsteelonice84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madgoat33 View Post
Oduya sucked the last like 10 games of the regular season too. "but he was playing 25 min a night!!!!". Yea, and getting ample PP time and still had like 1 point in 10 games and was playing mediocre(at best) defense. Using TOI that q dishes out as evidence that a guy wasn't playing poorly is dumb. He's a pretty good skater, plays meh defense and occasionally makes a nice pass.
I've always thought of Oduya as a figure skater who took up hockey because that's what he looks like out there.

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Old
06-18-2012, 04:05 PM
  #73
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Hjalmarsson's breakout passes have gotten better lately too. I think he's finally starting to think on NA better, he just needs a capable partner and his game will take off imo.

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06-18-2012, 04:08 PM
  #74
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If we move Hammer to Ottawa for Smith, Carkner and a mid round/late pick id be ok with. Smith and Carkner would be favorites two weeks into the season.

Will preface it with my own belief is that Leddy, Oduya and Montador are all capable of being 4/5 guys. Carkner is a solid #6.

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Old
06-18-2012, 04:10 PM
  #75
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Yea, and who is your #3? What is your second pairing without Hammer?

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