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Old
06-18-2012, 01:00 PM
  #26
Talks to Goalposts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pr3Va1L View Post
2 things strike me:


Gorges with a QoC of +1,5

and I thought the DD line had even easier match-ups than that, but they're QoC is 0.

With how the math works out 0 is actually pretty low. That's usually means the line playing against approximately 3rd tier opponents. You can see this by taking a look at the usage charts for other teams.

Other charts by this method for those interested:

League's Best Defensive Pairing: Look at how good Subban+Gorges appear.
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/5/30/top-defensive-pairings

These two don't adjust for team strength so the Habs players will look generally weaker.
Best Young Forwards in the East: Eller, Desharnais and Pacioretty featured
http://www.coppernblue.com/2012/4/13...conference-nhl

Best Young Defensemen: Subban and Gorges.
http://www.coppernblue.com/2012/4/12...omparisons-nhl

Keep in mind the size and colour of the bubble is just as important here as the position.


Scott Cullen was a poor choice to do the write up for this though. He's a follower of the entire league and isn't plugged in to the ins and outs of the lineup.


Last edited by Talks to Goalposts: 06-18-2012 at 01:24 PM.
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Old
06-18-2012, 01:02 PM
  #27
Et le But
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
He gets easier minutes than nearly every other centre on the team. Not that it's a bad thing, his line was being used perfectly if we go by that chart imo.

I've always been impressed by Nikitin whenever I had a chance to see him play, and this chart shows why. It would be wonderful to acquire him, Columbus is already spending a ton on their backend.
Well that's the thing, this chart shows that the Desharnais line was the only one used in a logical role.

And this also shows just how pathetic our winger depth is besides that line and Gionta. Having to give White and Bourque those kind of assignments is just unacceptable.

On the other hand, our defense has a few bright spots even beyond the Subban and Gorges pairing. Emelin and Diaz didn't play too tough minutes, but their results for their first year on NHL ice is encouraging, and Markov was sheltered, but did a good job in what he was given - certainly better than Kaberle.

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06-18-2012, 01:03 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
What? Desharnais hasn't been sheltered after all?!

Impossible!!!
Actually if anything, it shows that he along with Cole and Pacioretty were sheltered compared to Plekanec and Eller.

For league comparison's sake, look at where some of the other centers who got similar points to Desharnais last season were.

Here's a list of the C that were around 60 points:
David Legwand
Ryan Getzlaf
Stephen Weiss
Ryan O'Reilly
Paul Stastny
David Backes
Olli Jokinen
David Krejci
Mike Ribeiro
Patrice Bergeron
Logan Couture
Valtteri Filppula

I think Desharnais et co will be able to handle better competition. But to suggest that his line wasn't somewhat sheltered based on the stats on the graph isn't true.

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06-18-2012, 01:28 PM
  #29
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I don't know if Weber has an issue with his snap shots because I saw during the season at least 15-20 broken sticks while snapping. So many that I actually started to notice how he was one of the only players who had this issue. (1/2 were pp blue line shots)

In addition, I don't think that Weber will have a long career with the Habs, maybe with another team but the problem is that Tinordi and Beaulieu will knock at the door next year and Weber will open it.

I'm very surprised by Bourque's numbers and we shouldn't throw the towel concerning him. However, he'll need to find a quick chemistry with his linemates (Probably Eller and Moen/White)

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06-18-2012, 01:29 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Actually if anything, it shows that he along with Cole and Pacioretty were sheltered compared to Plekanec and Eller.

For league comparison's sake, look at where some of the other centers who got similar points to Desharnais last season were.

Here's a list of the C that were around 60 points:
David Legwand
Ryan Getzlaf
Stephen Weiss
Ryan O'Reilly
Paul Stastny
David Backes
Olli Jokinen
David Krejci
Mike Ribeiro
Patrice Bergeron
Logan Couture
Valtteri Filppula

I think Desharnais et co will be able to handle better competition. But to suggest that his line wasn't somewhat sheltered based on the stats on the graph isn't true.
'somewhat sheltered' is correct yes. but his point was that most posters here suggest his line was baby-panda sheltered, which that charts proves wrong.

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06-18-2012, 01:35 PM
  #31
Et le But
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Originally Posted by Asamu View Post
I'm very surprised by Bourque's numbers and we shouldn't throw the towel concerning him. However, he'll need to find a quick chemistry with his linemates (Probably Eller and Moen/White)
Well this gives me more sympathy for Bourque, he's just not the kind of player you want giving those kind of minutes. We could only wonder if he would have looked significantly better on the Desharnais line.

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06-18-2012, 01:36 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
'somewhat sheltered' is correct yes. but his point was that most posters here suggest his line was baby-panda sheltered, which that charts proves wrong.
Well perhaps I may have missed someone but I couldn't find many top 2 line minute playing players as sheltered competition-wise. Closest I can find is the Canes Skinner-Jokinen-Ruutu.

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06-18-2012, 01:40 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Well perhaps I may have missed someone but I couldn't find many top 2 line minute playing players as sheltered competition-wise.
The Sedins are a comparison. Slightly stronger competition but extreme offensive zone starts.

Edit: The Canes are a closer one.

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06-18-2012, 01:47 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
'somewhat sheltered' is correct yes. but his point was that most posters here suggest his line was baby-panda sheltered, which that charts proves wrong.
They played third tier opposition with favourable zone starts. That's very soft minutes for a top six line. Especially when we compare usage of Desharnais with Plekanec and Eller.

Also factor in that it was the only line that had two good wingers all season.

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06-18-2012, 02:25 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
With how the math works out 0 is actually pretty low. That's usually means the line playing against approximately 3rd tier opponents. You can see this by taking a look at the usage charts for other teams.

Other charts by this method for those interested:

League's Best Defensive Pairing: Look at how good Subban+Gorges appear.
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/5/30/top-defensive-pairings

These two don't adjust for team strength so the Habs players will look generally weaker.
Best Young Forwards in the East: Eller, Desharnais and Pacioretty featured
http://www.coppernblue.com/2012/4/13...conference-nhl

Best Young Defensemen: Subban and Gorges.
http://www.coppernblue.com/2012/4/12...omparisons-nhl

Keep in mind the size and colour of the bubble is just as important here as the position.


Scott Cullen was a poor choice to do the write up for this though. He's a follower of the entire league and isn't plugged in to the ins and outs of the lineup.
Thanks for these, I was hoping there were some league wide comparables out there, admittedly I didn't look for them myself. Just confirms that we should keep Gorges-Subban together, and find a reliable partner for Markov who can take some of the pressure off of him. I'd be fine with a Diaz-Emelin third pairing, they should be getting minutes like Kaberle and Spacek had while here.

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06-18-2012, 02:26 PM
  #36
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For other teams and players, Jordan Staal really stands out, in a good way, and Ovy, in a bad way. Interesting.

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06-18-2012, 02:37 PM
  #37
Et le But
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For other teams and players, Jordan Staal really stands out, in a good way, and Ovy, in a bad way. Interesting.
Wow, didn't look at the Caps chart until now, really what happened to Ovie? On the other hand I would gladly take Semin, and Halpern back for that matter.

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06-18-2012, 02:55 PM
  #38
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Wow, didn't look at the Caps chart until now, really what happened to Ovie? On the other hand I would gladly take Semin, and Halpern back for that matter.
Ovechkin declined massively this year. Some of that might be on Dale Hunter.

Semin is heavily under-rated for the "lazy Russian" stereotype. He's a good player.

Halpern did great work last year for Montreal in a defensive role as well. He would have been much better than Engqvist/Nokialainen in the 4th center role.

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06-18-2012, 03:01 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Ovechkin declined massively this year. Some of that might be on Dale Hunter.

Semin is heavily under-rated for the "lazy Russian" stereotype. He's a good player.

Halpern did great work last year for Montreal in a defensive role as well. He would have been much better than Engqvist/Nokialainen in the 4th center role.

I thought Halpern was underrated for us and I'm not sure why we didn't bring him back, especially considering they had no plan B. He broke down at the end but was a very good defensive forward and his loss is one of the many things that screwed over Plekanec IMO.

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06-18-2012, 03:51 PM
  #40
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Funny how Jagr, Malkin and the Sedins seemed to have had extremely favorable face-off location assignments.

Oveckkin actually underperformed in sheltered minutes, lol!!!

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Old
06-18-2012, 03:57 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by PricePkPatch View Post
Funny how Jagr, Malkin and the Sedins seemed to have had extremely favorable face-off location assignments.

Oveckkin actually underperformed in sheltered minutes, lol!!!
Context is important when talking about player value. Who knew eh?

Keep in mind that Malkin and the Sedins absolutely crushed their opponents under those circumstances, which is why they are good players. But it also means that their value is going to be relatively inflated if you only judge based on point totals which so many people fall victim to.

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06-18-2012, 08:58 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
Context is important when talking about player value. Who knew eh?

Keep in mind that Malkin and the Sedins absolutely crushed their opponents under those circumstances, which is why they are good players. But it also means that their value is going to be relatively inflated if you only judge based on point totals which so many people fall victim to.
Well explained.

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Old
06-19-2012, 02:35 AM
  #43
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Great read, thanks so much for posting this, Gives great insight into how important some players are.

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Old
06-19-2012, 04:32 PM
  #44
Joe Cole
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Originally Posted by Asamu View Post
I don't know if Weber has an issue with his snap shots because I saw during the season at least 15-20 broken sticks while snapping. So many that I actually started to notice how he was one of the only players who had this issue. (1/2 were pp blue line shots)
I understand being a fan (or the opposite of a fan) of a player, but thinking his sticks are breaking so much more than other players....

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