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Luongo XI - Luoraker (Mod warning #432)

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06-18-2012, 03:09 PM
  #701
Hank4Hart
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Originally Posted by DPyro View Post
There is this misconception that Burke is looking for a #1 goalie. Canucks fans, he's not. He has already stated multiple times he believes in Reimer as the #1 and is looking for a veteran backup goalie. If he can't find one, Scrivens has made it easier to just roll with youth. Worse case scenario the Leafs end up drafting Mackinnon next year, which isn't at all a bad thing.
Reimer would have been a solid option as a number 1 if Allaire didn't completely F' up his game with his "play like a robot take up as much space as you can" theories

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06-18-2012, 03:09 PM
  #702
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you're right, just like there is no guarantee getting luongo would assure the leafs a playoff berth next season

How do you hurt an organizatoin that repeatedly misses the playoffs?

making the matters even worse by trading a top 5 pick or their most promising prospect in gardiner for a goaltender whos already 33 and comes with retirement contract?
Or you could draft a 1st round pick who turns out to be a bust or simply just an average player... similar to someone that could easily have been picked up via free agency, instead of trading this pick that is no guarantee for a goalie who is far better at the position than anyone currently on the roster and dramatically improves the team for the next 4-5 years.

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06-18-2012, 03:13 PM
  #703
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So Washington moves a goalie who LOST his starting position on their team to a team selecting 2nd overall for a 1st and 2nd - those picks could easily have been inside the top 10 again.

I think Schneider is a much better goalie than Varlamov....it has also been widely discussed that Gauthier made a very poor trade, not only by Canucks fans, but by just about EVERYBODY.
Conversely everyone said the Av's way overpaid for Varlamov. So sure if the Canucks find a sucker or someone really desperate maybe they'd get a slightly better deal but again what did Washington get that helped them this past year? Nada, picks that might help the team down the road.

Are Canucks fans really willing to trade Schneider (who they seem to fully believe in) for the possiblity of help down the road if/when a mid 1st draft pick turns out? Or are they better off dumping Luongo for whatever the marginal prospects they can get for him and chase free agents for immediate help?

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06-18-2012, 03:16 PM
  #704
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Reimer would have been a solid option as a number 1 if Allaire didn't completely F' up his game with his "play like a robot take up as much space as you can" theories
'His system isnít just, sit there and be motionless and hope pucks hit you,' says Scrivens. 'People who say that are idiots. Itís like writing a book report on a book youíve never read before and being forceful about your convictions. But again, you can have your opinion, and I can have the opinion that youíre an idiot.'

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06-18-2012, 03:30 PM
  #705
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Originally Posted by Uhmkay View Post
Or you could draft a 1st round pick who turns out to be a bust or simply just an average player... similar to someone that could easily have been picked up via free agency, instead of trading this pick that is no guarantee for a goalie who is far better at the position than anyone currently on the roster and dramatically improves the team for the next 4-5 years.
recent draft history has shown 5th overalls have been pretty safe picks and i would take the gamble of drafting and developing a 18 year old prospect with potential and upside to have an impact in the NHL for the next decade over a goalie with ridiculous retirement contract and will probably be on the decline in "4-5" years

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06-18-2012, 03:31 PM
  #706
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Originally Posted by H0MER View Post
recent draft history has shown 5th overalls have been pretty safe picks and i would take the gamble of drafting and developing a 18 year old prospect with potential and upside to have an impact in the NHL for the next decade over a goalie with ridiculous retirement contract and will probably be on the decline in "4-5" years
Where was Luke Schenn picked, again?

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06-18-2012, 03:31 PM
  #707
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you have to look at the bigger picture, obviously getting luongo would improve the leafs chances at the playoffs but if the asking price is either of gardiner or the 5th ov it would just hurt the organization down the road 4-5 years from now when luongo will probably be on the decline, our prospects will be developed and ready to compete for the cup not just making the playoffs and i believe gardiner and the player being drafted 5th ov would be the key pieces going forward and trading such assets for short term success is not what leafs need we've already been down that route during the JFJ era and still have repercussions of it

There are different directions it could go in, too hard to predict the future. If the Leafs start playing better and making the play-offs they might have more success bringing in top end UFA's which would off-set the loss of the picks/prospect and give them play-off years which would make ownership money and fans happy. IMO the Leafs need to get out of this spiral of being terrible then mediocre, then terrible, and so on. TO would be a desirable place to sign if they iced a team that UFA's could feel proud of and making the play-offs with a proven tender would go a long way to meeting that end.

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06-18-2012, 03:31 PM
  #708
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I put forth a reasonable proposal without either, and got laughed at by most Leaf fans outside Cyris.


Liles+Frattin+2012 2nd+ 2013 1st
it is on the extreme end of reasonable, the 2013 1st makes it way too much!! even the offer with out the 2013 1st and the 2012 2nd is won trade for the Nucks. If Fratton and Liles are in then the 2012 2nd should be coming back with Lou and if the 2012 2nd and the 2013 1st are in from the Leafs then throw in kassain.

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06-18-2012, 03:33 PM
  #709
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Where was Luke Schenn picked, again?
and how old is luke schenn again?

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06-18-2012, 03:35 PM
  #710
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and how old is luke schenn again?
Older than Drew Doughty...

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06-18-2012, 03:43 PM
  #711
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Originally Posted by H0MER View Post
recent draft history has shown 5th overalls have been pretty safe picks and i would take the gamble of drafting and developing a 18 year old prospect with potential and upside to have an impact in the NHL for the next decade over a goalie with ridiculous retirement contract and will probably be on the decline in "4-5" years
Only fans think like this. You can keep watching the Leafs play for the rest of your life and care about their success long term. Meanwhile a GM knows that his shelf life is limited. Very few GMs, if any, last in their job that long. That means they value the next 4-5 years a lot more than whatever might happen in 6, 8, 10 or 12 years. Burke is probably another playoff-less season away from being fired.

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06-18-2012, 03:45 PM
  #712
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Originally Posted by TOML View Post
Old reports? Yup. Bleacher. Canoe. The Sun. These guys have to stoke up 'player to TO' rumours to stay afloat. Then you have your Eklunds and Incarcerated Bobs of the twitterverse, who are 100% fiction. Do they count as media? TSN, CBC, SN etc. all chime in when it looks closer to being a possible reality.

-Brad Richards was apparently down to TO and NYR. (Dreger.) Likely it was NYR and nobody else.
-Stamkos was a long shot, so the news was largely 'we should've signed him' after the fact.
-When Doubty rejected LA's initial offer, of course that opened up the door for a TO offer sheet. Nope.
-Nash to TO news so far have the been pros and cons of TO acquiring him and his cap hit.

It's all there though, plain as day.

Luongo talk presents a double-edged sword in that two large Canadian fanbases are stirred up. It's a great opportunity for all media outlets to be involved, whether there's anything or not. Cheers.


TOML
No actual facts, of course.

One fact is that the Rangers, Leafs, and Kings were the only teams to submit a formal offer to Brad Richards.

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06-18-2012, 03:47 PM
  #713
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Only fans think like this. You can keep watching the Leafs play for the rest of your life and care about their success long term. Meanwhile a GM knows that his shelf life is limited. Very few GMs, if any, last in their job that long. That means they value the next 4-5 years a lot more than whatever might happen in 6, 8, 10 or 12 years. Burke is probably another playoff-less season away from being fired.
That whole logic that he puts his job above the team is almost idiotic. Think about it, he sells off the future to make the post season to save his job. Then the team falls back to poopsville after that cuz no solid prospects then what???

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06-18-2012, 03:49 PM
  #714
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That whole logic that he puts his job above the team is almost idiotic. Think about it, he sells off the future to make the post season to save his job. Then the team falls back to poopsville after that cuz no solid prospects then what???
Trading away 1 pick means you're going to have no prospects? You have a few promising forward and defensive prospects, add a #1 goalie and you're bound to be a playoff team for at least as long as Luongo plays well enough (5-6 years).

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06-18-2012, 03:50 PM
  #715
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it is on the extreme end of reasonable, the 2013 1st makes it way too much!! even the offer with out the 2013 1st and the 2012 2nd is won trade for the Nucks. If Fratton and Liles are in then the 2012 2nd should be coming back with Lou and if the 2012 2nd and the 2013 1st are in from the Leafs then throw in kassain.
Are you for real?

A ~40 point defensman with little to no real defensive skill, a 24 year old whose ceiling is on the 2nd line if he's lucky, a 2nd and what would likely be a mid 1st for a top 5 goaltender, a 2nd, and what THN considers the 13th best prospect in the league?!?

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06-18-2012, 03:52 PM
  #716
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That whole logic that he puts his job above the team is almost idiotic. Think about it, he sells off the future to make the post season to save his job. Then the team falls back to poopsville after that cuz no solid prospects then what???
I wouldn't restrict the above to Brian Burke. I think in general that GM's think about the next 4 years or so. That's the only way that I can explain the ridiculous signings every July 1st. If I'm Lombardi I'm very happy about acquiring Jeff Carter and not too worried about the long term impact of his contract. Just like Philadelphia was when they gave out the contract.

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06-18-2012, 03:54 PM
  #717
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Most of these proposals, coming primarily from Canucks fans, are just ridiculous.

At the end of the day, Luongo is still signed for another ten years with a mammoth cap hit. If Canucks fans are expecting a huge return and Mike Gillis feels the same way, that cap hit is going to be riding the pine next year. There aren't very many (any?) teams that would cough up a **** load of assets to acquire that kind of salary and term, not to mention that Luongo is past his prime and could experience a significant decline in his performance in the not-so-distant future.

It's going to take a moderate talent (Tim Connolly, for example), a b-level prospect, and a mid-round draft pick.

Judging by past deals, I'm sure Brian Burke feels the same way. And if that doesn't sit well with Gillis and Canuck fans, I'm sure they'll be feeling even worse about having a $5.33mil/year backup.

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06-18-2012, 03:56 PM
  #718
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Trading away 1 pick means you're going to have no prospects? You have a few promising forward and defensive prospects, add a #1 goalie and you're bound to be a playoff team for at least as long as Luongo plays well enough (5-6 years).
I'm talking about if Burke puts his job ahead of the team, he will trade away future for now.

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Are you for real?

A ~40 point defensman with little to no real defensive skill, a 24 year old whose ceiling is on the 2nd line if he's lucky, a 2nd and what would likely be a mid 1st for a top 5 goaltender, a 2nd, and what THN considers the 13th best prospect in the league?!?
HAHAHAHAHA way to majorly down play the Leaf assets and Hype up the Van's assets.

but yup totally serious Liles+Fratton>Lou in a trade and 35th in 2012 and 1st-15th in 2013>=Kassain.

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06-18-2012, 03:56 PM
  #719
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Judging by past deals, I'm sure Brian Burke feels the same way. And if that doesn't sit well with Gillis and Canuck fans, I'm sure they'll be feeling even worse about having a $5.33mil/year backup.
Nah, we'll be content enough. We can also trade Schneider and most of our fans are fine with doing that. Meanwhile the Leafs will continue to be a mediocre team that can't make the playoffs.

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06-18-2012, 03:56 PM
  #720
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
Most of these proposals, coming primarily from Canucks fans, are just ridiculous.

At the end of the day, Luongo is still signed for another ten years with a mammoth cap hit. If Canucks fans are expecting a huge return and Mike Gillis feels the same way, that cap hit is going to be riding the pine next year. There aren't very many (any?) teams that would cough up a **** load of assets to acquire that kind of salary and term, not to mention that Luongo is past his prime and could experience a significant decline in his performance in the not-so-distant future.

It's going to take a moderate talent (Tim Connolly, for example), a b-level prospect, and a mid-round draft pick.Judging by past deals, I'm sure Brian Burke feels the same way. And if that doesn't sit well with Gillis and Canuck fans, I'm sure they'll be feeling even worse about having a $5.33mil/year backup.
And many proposals coming from Leaf fans are equally ridiculous, IMO. Tim Connoly has negative value with his contract. If we're going to take back a cap dump then Toronto needs to add.

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06-18-2012, 03:56 PM
  #721
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
Most of these proposals, coming primarily from Canucks fans, are just ridiculous.

At the end of the day, Luongo is still signed for another ten years with a mammoth cap hit. If Canucks fans are expecting a huge return and Mike Gillis feels the same way, that cap hit is going to be riding the pine next year. There aren't very many (any?) teams that would cough up a **** load of assets to acquire that kind of salary and term, not to mention that Luongo is past his prime and could experience a significant decline in his performance in the not-so-distant future.

It's going to take a moderate talent (Tim Connolly, for example), a b-level prospect, and a mid-round draft pick.

Judging by past deals, I'm sure Brian Burke feels the same way. And if that doesn't sit well with Gillis and Canuck fans, I'm sure they'll be feeling even worse about having a $5.33mil/year backup.
Any deal I have used has been offered by, respectively, Toronto, New Jersey or Florida fans. If Burke feels as you do, then Luongo to Toronto is not just unlikely, it isn't happening.

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06-18-2012, 03:59 PM
  #722
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Any deal I have used has been offered by, respectively, Toronto, New Jersey or Florida fans. If Burke feels as you do, then Luongo to Toronto is not just unlikely, it isn't happening.
That's fine then. I'd rather wait out a talent like Reimer than spend a ridiculous amount of assets for a goaltender that is: a) past his prime, b) extremely expensive, c) extremely expensive and signed for another ten years.

Have fun with that.

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06-18-2012, 04:01 PM
  #723
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That's fine then. I'd rather wait out a talent like Reimer than spend a ridiculous amount of assets for a goaltender that is: a) past his prime, b) extremely expensive, c) extremely expensive and signed for another ten years.

Have fun with that.
Extremely expensive? 5.3m cap hit is low for a goaltender of his talent, just look at what other comparable goalies are making.

Past his prime? He just posted one of his best season last year and this season was in line with his average career Sv%.

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06-18-2012, 04:01 PM
  #724
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HAHAHAHAHA way to majorly down play the Leaf assets and Hype up the Van's assets.

but yup totally serious Liles+Fratton>Lou in a trade and 35th in 2012 and 1st-15th in 2013>=Kassain.
Are you not doing the same thing? Liles + Fratton is greater value than Luongo is insanity. Regardless of a front loaded long term contract (which won't even run it's course), or the fact we'll likely be saying goodbye to a goaltender this summer, any top 5 goaltender is superior to a top 4 d-man and a potential top 6 forward. What logic are you using?

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06-18-2012, 04:01 PM
  #725
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Trading away 1 pick means you're going to have no prospects? You have a few promising forward and defensive prospects, add a #1 goalie and you're bound to be a playoff team for at least as long as Luongo plays well enough (5-6 years).
its just not "1 pick" its a top 5 pick, would the canucks be interested lets say leafs were drafting 15th overall instead of 5th ov? obvioulsy not! by reading the posts on this topic, canuck fans would have asked for kessel and gardiner for luongo

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