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Old
06-18-2012, 04:43 PM
  #76
joestevens29
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Its directly proportional to what they pay:

G4S is recently quoted as paying a range of $11.58-24.94/hr for armed bank security guards. This being a relative senior position with the org ( I say relative as theres really no such thing) You should see what the firm pays rent a cops in malls and patrols.
The same armed bank security people have to work 10 yrs in order to get a paltry 3wk holiday increment.
The same firm has a turnstile of recruiting because they can't retain anybody because they don't pay valid wages and benefits commensurate with the positions, responsibilities and risks.

The problem isn't really getting employees, its paying enough to keep them, from a firm that is the second biggest international employer to Walmart according to some sources and that has made record obscene profits in every year of operation.
You know what Walmart pays? Being big shouldn't mean anything. What needs to be changed is the few things that Reimer posted on page one.

First, if someone complains that someone is a good on Facebook you spend the 5 minutes and check it out.

Second, if you are firing someone or letting them go or whatever you damn well make sure they don't have access to their work gun. Maybe it's as simple as installing lockers that lockout employees that no longer work with the company.

Finally if you are letting someone go you let them go now. Don't piss around waiting.


I see part of the issue was hiring this lunatic, but it's obvious that wasn't the major flaw here.

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06-18-2012, 04:50 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
You know what Walmart pays? Being big shouldn't mean anything. What needs to be changed is the few things that Reimer posted on page one.

First, if someone complains that someone is a good on Facebook you spend the 5 minutes and check it out.

Second, if you are firing someone or letting them go or whatever you damn well make sure they don't have access to their work gun. Maybe it's as simple as installing lockers that lockout employees that no longer work with the company.

Finally if you are letting someone go you let them go now. Don't piss around waiting.


I see part of the issue was hiring this lunatic, but it's obvious that wasn't the major flaw here.
You maybe misunderstood.

Theres no comparison to Walmart I'm making. G4S gets lucrative exclusive contracts the world over and are making record profits each year in operation. Massive profits. In many cases from direct government hire. For instance the London Olympics.
This org could certainly afford to pay much more than they do considering the serious nature of this armed employment . They don't. I have no doubt they won't make this critical adjustment to retain people in what should be a stable employment pattern. Not a Mcjob hiring and recruitment pattern.

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06-18-2012, 04:52 PM
  #78
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You maybe misunderstood.

Theres no comparison to Walmart I'm making. G4S gets lucrative exclusive contracts the world over and are making record profits each year in operation. Massive profits. In many cases from direct government hire. For instance the London Olympics.
This org could certainly afford to pay much more than they do considering the serious nature of this armed employment . They don't. I have no doubt they won't make this critical adjustment to retain people in what should be a stable employment pattern. Not a Mcjob hiring and recruitment pattern.
The walmart part really means little. The fact remains people died and there will be a lot of people asking questions. They just better hope another idiot doesn't flip because the media has been quite good at pointing out this guys mistakes and what not to do next time.

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06-18-2012, 04:58 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
The walmart part really means little. The fact remains people died and there will be a lot of people asking questions. They just better hope another idiot doesn't flip because the media has been quite good at pointing out this guys mistakes and what not to do next time.
Those questions won't be getting properly answered or addressed. Nor have they in any other jurisdiction with the history of this firm who can hire the best lawyers anywhere and being an offshore multinational have limited need to answer to any specific govt. or jurisdiction.

People should familiarize themselves more with this global multinational. Its not allowed to go further than that here and link certain materials. But its out there.

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06-18-2012, 05:31 PM
  #80
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There are many things that need to be addressed. The low wages certainly do play a factor. Due to he low wages, many of the employees don't take their job seriously and thus you constantly have people coming and going. You're training expenses are through the roof and the "veterans" you have generally are people who have only put in 3-4 years of service. This also makes co-workers unfamiliar with each other as the turnover rate is high. realistically there are many things that could have prevented this.

As I've said a review of their hiring and firing policies will definitely ensue and who knows maybe they start taking their hiring more seriously and treat them as senior level security jobs instead of paying a 21 year old McDonald wages to carry a gun around.

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06-18-2012, 05:36 PM
  #81
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Seemingly an inability to comprehend that statistics and probability do reveal significant differences in behaviors across ages and in criminal behaviors across ages and that have been recorded across nations, time, and as long as such data has been recorded.

But apparently I'm a prejudiced, bigot for suggesting a 21 yr is more likely to have a period of instability or engage in violent crime, murder, assault etc than a more mature candidate say 10-20 yrs older.
No, but you are profiling, and ultimately that's a touchy prospect.

You point out that younger men are more likely to commit violent crimes as a reason not to employ younger men in those positions. Well, I would suggest that you would find that African-American are more likely to commit violent crimes per capita than Caucasian men - should we not employ Black men in those positions? Where is that line?

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06-18-2012, 05:39 PM
  #82
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It's funny because many of the sherriffs at the courthouse are not authorized to carry firearms, yet any 21 year old doofus can apply at G4S and carry a Glock.

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06-18-2012, 05:52 PM
  #83
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No, but you are profiling, and ultimately that's a touchy prospect.

You point out that younger men are more likely to commit violent crimes as a reason not to employ younger men in those positions. Well, I would suggest that you would find that African-American are more likely to commit violent crimes per capita than Caucasian men - should we not employ Black men in those positions? Where is that line?
Slippery slope indeed. Part of the problem with both sets of data is in possible biases in both. Asking the question "what age/race is more likely to be convicted of a crime" is not the same as "what age/race is most likely to commit a crime".

For age particularily, if you are convicted of a crime at 22, are you likely to be committing a crime at 23? Presumably not, since you are likely incarcerated. Also, maybe you don't recidivate when you are released - but is it because you are chronologically older and wiser, or is it due to the counseling etc. you received while in prison?

Arguments about screening and pay structure are much stronger I think.

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06-18-2012, 05:56 PM
  #84
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Slippery slope indeed. Part of the problem with both sets of data is in possible biases in both. Asking the question "what age/race is more likely to be convicted of a crime" is not the same as "what age/race is most likely to commit a crime".

For age particularily, if you are convicted of a crime at 22, are you likely to be committing a crime at 23? Presumably not, since you are likely incarcerated. Also, maybe you don't recidivate when you are released - but is it because you are chronologically older and wiser, or is it due to the counseling etc. you received while in prison?

Arguments about screening and pay structure are much stronger I think.
Also a fair point.

Maturity in this context is probably irrelevant. You do not cure a sociopath, it can not be done. There are studies in existence that show they will only use counselling or interventionary methods like prison to become better sociopaths.

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06-18-2012, 08:51 PM
  #85
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No, but you are profiling, and ultimately that's a touchy prospect.
Well, touchy apparently for those that are 21yrs old and can't read basic data tables I guess. The alternative is actually being able to look at information, not react unreasonably, and actually note that the data does tell a story. jebus if some person here claimed that 60yr olds make worse air traffic controllers because they're more likely to go nappy time at any point and they had data to back it up I wouldn't be claiming age prejudice and bigotry..


Quote:
You point out that younger men are more likely to commit violent crimes as a reason not to employ younger men in those positions. Well, I would suggest that you would find that African-American are more likely to commit violent crimes per capita than Caucasian men - should we not employ Black men in those positions? Where is that line?
Its easy to define the line. Every car insurance industry in the world does the identical profiling and adjusts insurance rates accordingly. Especially with young males. Is that prejudice? Or statistically backed rates according to data on risk? There are much greater risks employing young 21 yr old males in said capacity, which my link demonstrates.

Pay attention as well that this nature of job, for instance Loomis employees, used to require a higher minimum age and with more related experience. Its only the race to the bottom outsourcing charlatans like G4S that want to always limit qualifications and standards. What related experience did Baumgartner have, blowing away zombies in a video game?

Draw the distinction as well between a basic requirement of minimimum wage, which any company can have within reason and justification, and one that specifically preempts on the basis of race or skin color. Also, any firm has the right to denote certain years of experience. Which is exactly what occurs in almost any industry requiring experience. Is that age prejudice..?
Throw a minimum age of 25 in there, and theres no discrimination, only minimum age requirement. End of story.

You're equating the two only for the purpose of argument. They are really different things.


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06-18-2012, 09:54 PM
  #86
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Well, touchy apparently for those that are 21yrs old and can't read basic data tables I guess. The alternative is actually being able to look at information, not react unreasonably, and actually note that the data does tell a story. jebus if some person here claimed that 60yr olds make worse air traffic controllers because they're more likely to go nappy time at any point and they had data to back it up I wouldn't be claiming age prejudice and bigotry..
I'm pretty sure I did accuse you of ageism against older people when you made an unreasonable and frankly broken argument about Pat Quinn's age when he was hired as a coach.

So I'm not sure that example helps you here.

Quote:
Its easy to define the line. Every car insurance industry in the world does the identical profiling and adjusts insurance rates accordingly. Especially with young males. Is that prejudice? Or statistically backed rates according to data on risk? There are much greater risks employing young 21 yr old males in said capacity, which my link demonstrates.
There's a world of difference between a private company using data to determine entry level insurance rates (which is also regulated to some degree) and another company prejudicially deciding that a *qualified candidate can't be employed because he doesn't hit an minimum age quota. One is an optional arrangement with a private company, the other is possibly infringing on your right to seek employment.

* I know you don't feel a 21 year old should be qualified for the job based on experience, which is fine, but you didn't set the qualifications. If they're looking for someone with training and limited work experience, those are the qualifications that matter.

Quote:
Pay attention as well that this nature of job, for instance Loomis employees, used to require a higher minimum age and with more related experience. Its only the race to the bottom outsourcing charlatans like G4S that want to always limit qualifications and standards. What related experience did Baumgartner have, blowing away zombies in a video game?

Draw the distinction as well between a basic requirement of minimimum wage, which any company can have within reason and justification, and one that specifically preempts on the basis of race or skin color. Also, any firm has the right to denote certain years of experience. Which is exactly what occurs in almost any industry requiring experience. Is that age prejudice..?
Throw a minimum age of 25 in there, and theres no discrimination, only minimum age requirement. End of story.
If you're argument is that this company did not hire a qualified person, and that it should require more years of related experience, that's a perfect valid argument for a fairly inconsiquential point. Ultimately, what the requirements are for the job is up to this private company, and they assume all of the insurance risks and liability in the process.

But that's not your point. Your point is younger adults are statistically more dangerous, therefore should not be trusted with a job that involves firearms. It's funny that we let 18 year olds fight in wars, then, or go through training to be police officers before they turn 21. It's not overly difficult for a young adult to acquire firearms for protection or hunting, the process let's them at both classes of firearms at 18, with some certification possible at 16.

This is hardly a shocking exception.

Quote:
You're equating the two only for the purpose of argument. They are really different things.
It's profiling either way. I never said you were prejudiced or bigoted, that was someone else. I'm saying your argument is broken, and in some places, you're asking a company to profile in a manor which is at best a slippery slope, and at worst illegal.

The Canadian Human Rights Act (1977) specifically references "Age" as something that perspective employers can not use to descriminate against perspective employers. There are exceptions, in that if they can prove members of a certain age group CANT do the job, they may be able to screen based on it, but I'm not sure you can make that argument in this particular case.


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Old
06-18-2012, 10:25 PM
  #87
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It's profiling either way. I never said you were prejudiced or bigoted, that was someone else. I'm saying your argument is broken, and in some places, you're asking a company to profile in a manor which is at best a slippery slope, and at worst illegal.

The Canadian Human Rights Act (1977) specifically references "Age" as something that perspective employers can not use to descriminate against perspective employers. There are exceptions, in that if they can prove members of a certain age group CANT do the job, they may be able to screen based on it, but I'm not sure you can make that argument in this particular case.
How on Earth is an age requirement illegal? Get a grip. Nearly EVERY employer does this in the case of certain positions requiring responsibility, maturity, and experience. You can categorize it as minimum age requirement, minimum experience requirement, or both, all of which is perfectly legal.
Using the logical extension of your argument we should have Prime Ministers that are 21 instead of ones that just act like it..

Never said that YOU accused me of bigotry. You're late to the party.

Anyway I explained my point well, and thoroughly. It is really quite simple, minimum age requirement, its sensible, for a position entrusting working this security position with firearms.

As for the military I wasn't aware they sent people out into the field of battle armed, locked, and loaded after 5 days of simple basic training, news to me, which is the case in this G4S example. But again, you're late to the party and making me repeat myself. Its simply a bad idea sending 18yr olds anywhere to fight and has been documented many times and perhaps starting decades ago in Vietnam. We could argue that in PM, I don't imagine going too far on that tangent is productive here.

Finally, not every condition of employment is specifically up to an employer, G4S must meet, and satisfy, basic requirements of the Countries and jurisdictions in which they want to operate. Although sadly in our knock the walls down race to the bottom nation almost anything goes here. But that said this Company has run aground of minimal expectations here before. G4S WANTED to operate a money pickup service using ONE DRIVER/ONE normal CARGO VAN, a plan which was shot down in the courts and with the ruling indicating that such an expectation would far exceed acceptable risk for an individual involved in that employment with absolutely nobody watching their back. This is the firm we're talking about here. They'd have Donald Duck and Goofy picking up the money if they could get away with it.


Last edited by Replacement: 06-18-2012 at 10:37 PM.
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06-18-2012, 11:57 PM
  #88
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Not that I wan't to interrupt this debate but has anyone ever gone 'geocaching'?
Yes I have, it is quite fun actually. There is alot of caches around The Edmonton area.

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06-19-2012, 12:55 AM
  #89
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Yes I have, it is quite fun actually. There is alot of caches around The Edmonton area.
Yeah it is a lot of fun and I just found out about it recently. Great date activity

You could spend months just finding all the caches along the river valley. Found one near the Terwillegar Dog Park that had a $5 McDonalds gift card in it, haha.

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06-19-2012, 03:15 AM
  #90
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This has nothing to do with age. The guy's a Psychopath, plain and simple. Age doesn't make a diffrence in mental disorders.
Pretty much this. It takes a special sort of person to murder three (potentially four) people they know for any reason. I dont care if you are 19, 38, 3 or 200...

Its just really some ****ed up **** right there. He didn't just take someones life... he did it once then had the strength to do it again, and again... and again.

I'm 19 and I agree with Replacement. It isn't really acceptable for you to hire someone my age and trust them with that kind of responsibility. That's not an entry level job, it aint no McDonalds, hell its not even an entry level security job. It would be one thing to hire the guy as the rent-a-cop at some piece of junk pawn shop or something, but to be trusted with carrying hundreds of thousands of dollars with fire arms and that kind of risk?

Just straight up ridiculous. The fact that he was even hired should have somebody fired.

I also find it kind of sickening that some media outlets are looking for excuses for the guy though. I mean, he shouldn't have been hired in the first place but I dont care how mentally ill you are, if you are capable of doing that much damage you deserve to rot in a cell. "Oh he was bullied as child." Give me a ****ing break, I was bullied as a kid because I was an awkward son of a ***** with no social skills. You dont see me executing my co-workers because mommy pressured me to pay her back money that I owed.

I mean, I even see lots of people trying to guilt trip the guys mom for having the arguement about money but seriously that is something that is perfectly normal and okay to do; its kind of how the world works. I mean hell, say she doesn't have the conversation and lets the kid leech off her, what happens when it is his landlord saying pay me or live on the street... does he go kill his co-workers then?

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06-19-2012, 08:04 AM
  #91
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No, but most commonly is discovered/occurs in late teens and early 20s.

I can see revisiting the concurrent vs consecutive sentences debate, but I thought we closed the book on capital punishment.

Didn't happen with cops being killed at Mayerthorpe, why should it happen now?
I'm assuming you're addressing the board in general with the bolded sectional. If not, WTF has that got to do with my post.

Anyways, regarding other posts since this once, G4S really has to reconsider who they hire and at what age....and yes I AM profiling age here. Sorry to the 20's crowd, I have allot of respect for you guys, but when you're tasked with carrying a gun and handling very large sums of cash on a daily basis, life experience and work experience in that area should be a key part in the hiring process.

Maybe this will rub some of you guys the wrong way...sorry for that....but if I was hiring someone for this position I would definitely look at thing that a normal employer should not normally look at. Age and even personal matters like if you are married and have kids. Definitely a proper psychological profile as well. I don't think Psych profiles are that hard to do nowadays, especially if you have someone who knows what they are doing.

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06-19-2012, 09:31 AM
  #92
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Quite simply the company shouldn't shy away from young adults when hiring but they better damn well do their homework on said person and justify(within their organization) why someone making damn near minimum wage should be given a firearm and haul large sums of cash around.

To you SK13, just because the company had ****** hiring standards doesn't mean anything. I don't thing people are being prejudice or or bigots, they are simply saying in either lengthy or short replies that G4S needs better screening and hiring processes. Some may be against hiring young people altogether but I say the hiring policies just need to be better. Are there 20 year old capable of doing the job? For sure, but likely in a random selection of 100 20 year olds and 100 30 year olds you are likely to find more suitable candidates in the 30's group.

Like I said before, police organizations like the EPS and CPS have extensive screening procedures. I've known of people who were 19 that have gotten onto the force and I've known people who were 22 that have been told to go gain some more life experience. Of course G4S isn't going to instill this kind of screening process when the successful candidate is going to be making 33% less than a Tim's employee in Fort Mac.

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06-19-2012, 09:35 AM
  #93
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Quite simply the company shouldn't shy away from young adults when hiring but they better damn well do their homework on said person and justify(within their organization) why someone making damn near minimum wage should be given a firearm and haul large sums of cash around.

To you SK13, just because the company had ****** hiring standards doesn't mean anything. I don't thing people are being prejudice or or bigots, they are simply saying in either lengthy or short replies that G4S needs better screening and hiring processes. Some may be against hiring young people altogether but I say the hiring policies just need to be better. Are there 20 year old capable of doing the job? For sure, but likely in a random selection of 100 20 year olds and 100 30 year olds you are likely to find more suitable candidates in the 30's group.

Like I said before, police organizations like the EPS and CPS have extensive screening procedures. I've known of people who were 19 that have gotten onto the force and I've known people who were 22 that have been told to go gain some more life experience. Of course G4S isn't going to instill this kind of screening process when the successful candidate is going to be making 33% less than a Tim's employee in Fort Mac.
I don't know if that's the case here because look at how old everyone involved in this was. I don't think they have a ton of 30 year olds knocking on their door looking for jobs.

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06-19-2012, 09:58 AM
  #94
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I don't know if that's the case here because look at how old everyone involved in this was. I don't think they have a ton of 30 year olds knocking on their door looking for jobs.
No likely not to work for 12 bucks an hour. I'm just talking in general whether the people want the job or not.

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06-19-2012, 10:05 AM
  #95
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No likely not to work for 12 bucks an hour. I'm just talking in general whether the people want the job or not.
That's the key here. If 30 year olds don't want the job then you are forced to hire younger people. What do other companies pay? Is this industry standard?

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06-19-2012, 10:07 AM
  #96
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That's the key here. If 30 year olds don't want the job then you are forced to hire younger people. What do other companies pay? Is this industry standard?
Which is fine, now they just need a better screening process.

As for the industry I have no idea what the standard is.

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06-19-2012, 10:13 AM
  #97
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Which is fine, now they just need a better screening process.

As for the industry I have no idea what the standard is.
I don't think you'll ever be 100% on screening though. **** happens that sets people off. The bigger issue for me is what you posted on page one about all the signs that were ignored or not dealt with properly.

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06-19-2012, 10:44 AM
  #98
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I also find it kind of sickening that some media outlets are looking for excuses for the guy though. I mean, he shouldn't have been hired in the first place but I dont care how mentally ill you are, if you are capable of doing that much damage you deserve to rot in a cell. "Oh he was bullied as child." Give me a ****ing break, I was bullied as a kid because I was an awkward son of a ***** with no social skills. You dont see me executing my co-workers because mommy pressured me to pay her back money that I owed.

I mean, I even see lots of people trying to guilt trip the guys mom for having the arguement about money but seriously that is something that is perfectly normal and okay to do; its kind of how the world works. I mean hell, say she doesn't have the conversation and lets the kid leech off her, what happens when it is his landlord saying pay me or live on the street... does he go kill his co-workers then?
I don't think the media or anyone is making excuses for Travis. They were just saying...

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06-19-2012, 11:38 AM
  #99
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On a different note, anybody here who knows anything about investments?

Just looking at the financial situation in Greece/Spain/Belgium/Portugal/Italy and wondering where this is going - should I pull my mutuals into something like a GIC account that's weak but steady?

I get that the return might not even allow for inflation in the long term but I'd rather have some money than no money.

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06-19-2012, 01:49 PM
  #100
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Yeah it is a lot of fun and I just found out about it recently. Great date activity

You could spend months just finding all the caches along the river valley. Found one near the Terwillegar Dog Park that had a $5 McDonalds gift card in it, haha.
Just remember if you take something you have to leave something behind.

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