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Old
06-18-2012, 01:35 AM
  #401
superhakan
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
Perhaps my response required elobaration. I apologize for my poor communication.

I wouldn't say that the game is primarily in differentials, I would say it's primarily situational, and hopefully the following situations clarify how a player can bust their ass and have poor differentials:

1. You won the faceoff but your teammate gave up the puck and a shot was taken against

2. You took the man and not the puck, but the puck eventually found its way in the back of the net

3. You block a shot, but the opposition recovered and put another shot on net

4. You set up an open net pass but your teammate missed the net, and then eventually the opposition put a shot on your net

5. After the opposition puts a shot on net, you prevented the open net rebound but iced the puck. You then allow a goal on the next shift because of fatigue

6. You’re being very active in getting body position in front of your net so your goalie was able to save two shots, but went on a line change during the transition

7. Your lazy teammate is slow to get to the bench, so you jump on the ice just as the opposition generates scoring chances from quick transition

Let's pretend that GMs, coaches, and scouts only make decisions on differentials. Therefore, all players would be worried about differentials alone. We would not have the same game, as there would be no creativity, physicality, styles of players, etc., as it would look like a ping pong game of harmless shots. Even the way players work out, practice, eat, etc., would change.

I didn't employ you to play the game because I think the numbers are bad, its because when you play, you can push yourself into high gear with 100% emotion and you can still come out with your head held low, because sometimes, its just in the cards.
You listed a ton of freak/common situations that occur throughout a game and its true that these variables make it tough to evaluate a player, but there is a reason why when Backlund is on the ice that shots are being directed on the opponents net rather then our own. Does no one recall his play being lauded by Sutter earlier in the season even though his points weren't coming? Backlund passes the eye test (I have been impressed by his play) and I am sure a healthy campaign next season will change a lot of Flames fans minds.

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06-18-2012, 09:06 AM
  #402
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Originally Posted by superhakan View Post
You listed a ton of freak/common situations that occur throughout a game and its true that these variables make it tough to evaluate a player, but there is a reason why when Backlund is on the ice that shots are being directed on the opponents net rather then our own. Does no one recall his play being lauded by Sutter earlier in the season even though his points weren't coming? Backlund passes the eye test (I have been impressed by his play) and I am sure a healthy campaign next season will change a lot of Flames fans minds.
This is exactly how I feel.

If someone asked me who I would rather have on this team (Stajan vs. Backlund), it would be Backlund. I think he is developing into a better player than Stajan, the offense may come, so people should still be patient. Especially given the fact that he looked really good in training camp and pre-season before his injury. He had put on quite a bit of muscle, which was an issue for him. If he continues to get stronger, he should be a solid player soon given his natural offensive instincts.

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06-18-2012, 09:11 AM
  #403
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This is exactly how I feel.

If someone asked me who I would rather have on this team (Stajan vs. Backlund), it would be Backlund. I think he is developing into a better player than Stajan, the offense may come, so people should still be patient. Especially given the fact that he looked really good in training camp and pre-season before his injury. He had put on quite a bit of muscle, which was an issue for him. If he continues to get stronger, he should be a solid player soon given his natural offensive instincts.
Backlund may one day be better but at this point I feel Stajan is a better fit on the top line.

1) He can win faceoffs making it easier for Iggy and Tangs to play offensive

2) He has shown chemistry with both (more than Backlund) as he is a passer so he doesn't need to change his game like most centers do when they play with Iggy (aka pass more)

3) When Stajan was forced to play 4th line he never complained he did exactly as he was asked and then when given a shot on the top 2 lines he became a hero most games. Where as Backlund hasn't had to do the same work to get a shot on the top line.

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06-18-2012, 09:28 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Backlund may one day be better but at this point I feel Stajan is a better fit on the top line.

1) He can win faceoffs making it easier for Iggy and Tangs to play offensive

2) He has shown chemistry with both (more than Backlund) as he is a passer so he doesn't need to change his game like most centers do when they play with Iggy (aka pass more)

3) When Stajan was forced to play 4th line he never complained he did exactly as he was asked and then when given a shot on the top 2 lines he became a hero most games. Where as Backlund hasn't had to do the same work to get a shot on the top line.
Serious?

Backlund has been dumped with pluggers more often than not. He's played tons of 4th line and 3rd line mintues, and has done a decent job of it. We already had this arguement on here anyway (not you and I personally).

I understand the chemistry he has with the top line and that is great. I'm simply saying if I HAD to choose, I would choose Backlund. If he keeps developing then he will be a better player than Stajan, who is strictly complimentary. Backlund may be able to hold his own line one day IMO.

Now, in the real world, we cannot afford to give up any centers, so really this argument is purely hypothetical from my POV.

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06-18-2012, 11:16 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by superhakan View Post
You listed a ton of freak/common situations that occur throughout a game and its true that these variables make it tough to evaluate a player, but there is a reason why when Backlund is on the ice that shots are being directed on the opponents net rather then our own. Does no one recall his play being lauded by Sutter earlier in the season even though his points weren't coming? Backlund passes the eye test (I have been impressed by his play) and I am sure a healthy campaign next season will change a lot of Flames fans minds.
Huh? They're common and freak situations? You know the two are opposites....

Backlund will likely (or hoperfully) get better, but Backlund hasn't proved anything besides good corsi numbers. I agree with MR on this one. Everytime I've seen Backlund this year, he's looked like a bust. Please take your homer glasses off and let's talk hockey.

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06-18-2012, 12:16 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
Huh? They're common and freak situations? You know the two are opposites....

Backlund will likely (or hoperfully) get better, but Backlund hasn't proved anything besides good corsi numbers. I agree with MR on this one. Everytime I've seen Backlund this year, he's looked like a bust. Please take your homer glasses off and let's talk hockey.
Yes, I was wasnt saying every incident was freak/common, you listed 8 different things varying from common to the uncommon, now can you comprehend?

And in case you havent noticed, WE ARE TALKING HOCKEY, except i didnt have to be condescending about it (until now), Stajan has accomplished about as much in a flames uniform as Backlund has. Except anytime Stajan has accomplished anything it has been piggybacking with Jarome. Also its not homer glasses if other people can see it:

http://flamesnation.ca/2011/12/16/de...ikael-backlund

Stajan should start the season on a higher line than Backlund as he has shown more at an NHL level, and can win faceoffs, but the fact you guys are writing off a 22-23 year old player who has yet to play a full season in the NHL is ridiculous and Backlund will serve you up a plate of crow next season.

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06-18-2012, 08:08 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
Huh? They're common and freak situations? You know the two are opposites....

Backlund will likely (or hoperfully) get better, but Backlund hasn't proved anything besides good corsi numbers. I agree with MR on this one. Everytime I've seen Backlund this year, he's looked like a bust. Please take your homer glasses off and let's talk hockey.
We're just seeing a different player, then. I spent the first dozen or so games of his season focused almost entirely on Backlund (partially because the team in general was pretty depressing, partially because I like to see where I feel the younger guys are in their development), and I rarely saw a mistake. He also had a lot of moments that really impressed me, and he generally looks like a player who 'does all the little things', as it were. Unless he has a serious transformation he's not likely to live up to his original HFBoards rating, but I consider him, at bare minimum, to be an effective checking centre, and I think he's got the ability to improve his offensive production.

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06-18-2012, 10:18 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by superhakan View Post
Yes, I was wasnt saying every incident was freak/common, you listed 8 different things varying from common to the uncommon, now can you comprehend?

And in case you havent noticed, WE ARE TALKING HOCKEY, except i didnt have to be condescending about it (until now), Stajan has accomplished about as much in a flames uniform as Backlund has. Except anytime Stajan has accomplished anything it has been piggybacking with Jarome. Also its not homer glasses if other people can see it:

http://flamesnation.ca/2011/12/16/de...ikael-backlund

Stajan should start the season on a higher line than Backlund as he has shown more at an NHL level, and can win faceoffs, but the fact you guys are writing off a 22-23 year old player who has yet to play a full season in the NHL is ridiculous and Backlund will serve you up a plate of crow next season.
Don't blame me if you don't know how to use a forward slash. Also, what's uncommon? All those situations happen all the time if you replace goals with shots. I would say out of 82 games with 30 teams, each situation happens once a night.

How come Backlund couldn't piggyback Jerome? You cited an opinion article stating Backlund wasn't scoring because of bad luck and lack of PP time. Same reason Stajan wasn't scoring? Oh wait... Stajan was once he got some better wingers. Pfff, bad luck is a lame excuse with the opportunities Backlund has had.

Who wrote Backlund off? I've been known to take it easy on Backlund last season and only started to expect some numbers mid way through this season. Likewise, I've been known to blame Sutter and his **** system for a lot of offensive woes this year. Even furthermore, I've previously said Backlund will likely put up better numbers under Hartley! But what I won't do is lie to myself about the peachy career Backlund has had thus far, therefore take off these homer glasses, quite living in a dream world, and accept the under performed career Backlund has so far demonstrated and then we're talking.

Check the trade proposals around here before the deadline. You likely won't find many without Stajan or Backlund going away. Ask yourself why.

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06-18-2012, 10:42 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
How come Backlund couldn't piggyback Jerome? You cited an opinion article stating Backlund wasn't scoring because of bad luck and lack of PP time. Same reason Stajan wasn't scoring? Oh wait... Stajan was once he got some better wingers. Pfff, bad luck is a lame excuse with the opportunities Backlund has had.
His team on-ice shooting percentage has been godawful. The most likely explanation (again, there's no evidence that the shots are coming from outside areas more than for any other player), is variance. If the percentage stays down another full season, then maybe there's something else at work (subpar finishing ability, etc), but for now I'm sticking with bad luck.

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06-18-2012, 10:51 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
His team on-ice shooting percentage has been godawful. The most likely explanation (again, there's no evidence that the shots are coming from outside areas more than for any other player), is variance. If the percentage stays down another full season, then maybe there's something else at work (subpar finishing ability, etc), but for now I'm sticking with bad luck.
In 138 games he has 15 goals and 277 shots for a shooting precent of 5.4%. He must have some bad luck but that is a large sample to base it 100% on luck.

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06-18-2012, 11:10 PM
  #411
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We're just seeing a different player, then. I spent the first dozen or so games of his season focused almost entirely on Backlund (partially because the team in general was pretty depressing, partially because I like to see where I feel the younger guys are in their development), and I rarely saw a mistake. He also had a lot of moments that really impressed me, and he generally looks like a player who 'does all the little things', as it were. Unless he has a serious transformation he's not likely to live up to his original HFBoards rating, but I consider him, at bare minimum, to be an effective checking centre, and I think he's got the ability to improve his offensive production.
Backlund is a great defensive centre. There's no question that he was Sutter's poster boy for the system. But Backlund was weak on the puck against legit top sixers, he wasn't great in the circle, and he displayed very little creativity. He's not hard-nosed enough to be poor offensively. All of my offseason moves usually involved keeping him on a line with Baestchi, but he still might be a bust.

What if he plays 70 games next season and only puts up 25 points? Do we then call him a bust, or is still too early because he's soooo ****ing young? Some players' are busts and it's ok if it happens to the Flames every now and then.

I even heard Conroy give an interview mid season about Backlund needing to accept a bottom 6 role. It was on the Fan I believe, right around trade deadline. Unfortunately I can't find anything to back that up.

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06-18-2012, 11:18 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
His team on-ice shooting percentage has been godawful. The most likely explanation (again, there's no evidence that the shots are coming from outside areas more than for any other player), is variance. If the percentage stays down another full season, then maybe there's something else at work (subpar finishing ability, etc), but for now I'm sticking with bad luck.
Variance is the most likely? Honestly, these math theories have gone too far now? I would say Sutter, but other than that, lack of offensive ability. Until he proves me otherwise, that's all I can logically deduce. He's been injured alot, but still, he's had two seasons as an NHL regular.

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06-19-2012, 08:38 PM
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so apparently Irving hurt his knee when he was first called up to the Flames. He mentioned it in an interview on the flames website (in the video section)

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06-19-2012, 08:42 PM
  #414
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so apparently Irving hurt his knee when he was first called up to the Flames. He mentioned it in an interview on the flames website (in the video section)
It would explain his drop off when he went back down. It makes me feel abit better.

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06-19-2012, 08:48 PM
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It would explain his drop off when he went back down. It makes me feel abit better.
yeah me too, he said he could play through it, but any knee injury on a goalie is bad IMO. I also think going from playing every day to splitting duties didn't help either, its tougher when you don't play every day.

You have to wonder how much the wedding and baby affected him as well, professional or not he is just 23 and those are moments that distract all of us.

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06-19-2012, 08:57 PM
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yeah me too, he said he could play through it, but any knee injury on a goalie is bad IMO. I also think going from playing every day to splitting duties didn't help either, its tougher when you don't play every day.

You have to wonder how much the wedding and baby affected him as well, professional or not he is just 23 and those are moments that distract all of us.
I agree I am a huge fan of his and from what I read he didn't look right after his nhl stint (I did not get to see another heat game) so this would explain it. I also agree about the wedding/kid distracting from playing I know he would want to be professional but that is a huge personal moment to not have it effect you is unrealistic.

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06-19-2012, 09:01 PM
  #417
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so apparently Irving hurt his knee when he was first called up to the Flames. He mentioned it in an interview on the flames website (in the video section)
During the first call up? He played great with the Flames!

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06-19-2012, 09:02 PM
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I agree I am a huge fan of his and from what I read he didn't look right after his nhl stint (I did not get to see another heat game) so this would explain it. I also agree about the wedding/kid distracting from playing I know he would want to be professional but that is a huge personal moment to not have it effect you is unrealistic.
Agreed. I stand by my opinion that Irving is our most underrated prospect and is a clear #2 behind Sven

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06-19-2012, 09:04 PM
  #419
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During the first call up? He played great with the Flames!
He said he could play through it so it sounds like something that would just be a nagging injure and would most likely get worse with time.

Karlsson must feel like **** they choose a semi hurt rookie over him.

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06-19-2012, 09:06 PM
  #420
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He said he could play through it so it sounds like something that would just be a nagging injure and would most likely get worse with time.

Karlsson must feel like **** they choose a semi hurt rookie over him.


Yeah that's not exactly an ego boost.

That's really good news. That tells me he's much better than he looked, and he looked really ****ing good!

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06-19-2012, 09:07 PM
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During the first call up? He played great with the Flames!
sounds like it was either prior to or during his first game actually. i think the adrenaline would help alot with the pain too. I know I played in one tournament hurt and the adrenaline was so high I didn't know how much pain I was really in, until after when my body went into shock and I suddenly went pale, got shaky and puked everywhere.

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06-19-2012, 09:10 PM
  #422
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sounds like it was either prior to or during his first game actually. i think the adrenaline would help alot with the pain too. I know I played in one tournament hurt and the adrenaline was so high I didn't know how much pain I was really in, until after when my body went into shock and I suddenly went pale, got shaky and puked everywhere.
Never had that happen before. The only time I was ever really hurt I blocked a shot and it was so bad I couldn't walk so I couldn't "skate it off"

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06-19-2012, 09:14 PM
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Never had that happen before. The only time I was ever really hurt I blocked a shot and it was so bad I couldn't walk so I couldn't "skate it off"
mine was my knee, i knew it was weak and wasn't right but I couldn't quit. turned out I damaged the LCL, MCL and "shredded" the cartilage.

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06-19-2012, 09:16 PM
  #424
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mine was my knee, i knew it was weak and wasn't right but I couldn't quit. turned out I damaged the LCL, MCL and "shredded" the cartilage.
You might be tougher than I am I blocked the shot and had no major damage just some serious swelling. I got off the ice as soon as I could.

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06-19-2012, 09:20 PM
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You might be tougher than I am I blocked the shot and had no major damage just some serious swelling. I got off the ice as soon as I could.
its not a toughness thing, I think feet/ankles are harder to play through than knees

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