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Reorganizing the SEL!

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06-16-2012, 03:26 PM
  #1
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Reorganizing the SEL!

This was written drunk and in quite a hurry. Please bear with me.

I think one of the problems with the SEL is that teams lack the money to attract the players that at present time chooses to play in the KHL or other european leagues. This could be fixed by adding additional teams to the SEL wich in turn means more games and more income for the teams in the legue. Many people want to expand the number of teams to 14. I want to take it a step further and up the number of teams to 18. This would make a stronger league economically and we'd see less borderline NHL-ers leaving for the KHL and staying in Sweden, witch in turn would make the league more attractive to watch and play in.

The new SEL.
AIK
Brynäs IF
DjurgårdenS IF
Frölunda HC
Färjestads Bk
Hv71
Linköpings HC
Leksands IF
Luleå HC
Malmö IF
MoDo Hockey
Mora IK
Skellefteå AIK
Södertälje SK
Timrå IK
Växjö Lakers
---------------
Västerås HC
---------------
Örebro HC

I have added the most attractive teams economically and geographically going by population of the cities.

The 17th team is in no mans land and the last placed team plays a regulation/promotion series against the top three teams in Allsvenskan.
The rest of the teams would play in the playoffs wich would lead to even more income to the teams that have qualified.

Eightpart, Quarters, Semis, Finals. With the current system of the top seeded teams choose cross league who they want to meet.

Some might say this new system limits the chances of Allsvenskan team to advance. I think that is something good. The number of teams jumping up and down is allready to great. To add, it's completely devestating economically for some teams being demoted.

Due to the number of the teams i have divided them up in northern and southern conferances wich would look something like this.

Elitserien Södra
Frölunda HC
Färjestads BK
Hv71
Linköpings HC
Malmö IF
Södertälje SK
Växjö Lakers
Västerås HC
Örebro HK

Elitserien Norra
AIK
Brynäs IF
Djurgårdens IF
Leksands IF
Luleå HC
MoDo Hockey
Mora IK
Skellefteå AIK
Timrå IK

This would mean that you play four games against the teams in your division. Two home and two away. And three against teams in the oposing conferance. Two home/two away and one away/home depending on scheduling. This would add up to a total of 63 games wich would mean playing on average three games a week. I added the conferances because otherwise the schedule would be limited to 54 games(the point of expansion would be for teams to make more money of games after all) or extended to a whopping 72 games wich i think is too much.



Any way. I know it's a lot of text but is there anything you'd like to add? Is it completely rubbish? Is there something to it? I think it's critical we do something about the mess this league is in.

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06-16-2012, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstroms pads View Post
I think one of the problems with the SEL is that teams lack the money to attract the players that at present time chooses to play in the KHL or other european leagues. This could be fixed by adding additional teams to the SEL wich in turn means more games and more income for the teams in the legue. Many people want to expand the number of teams to 14. I want to take it a step further and up the number of teams to 18. This would make a stronger league economically and we'd see less borderline NHL-ers leaving for the KHL and staying in Sweden, witch in turn would make the league more attractive to watch and play in.
I don't see it, at all. Unless this would bring more money from league sponsors this would just water down the league. And I dont see how it would since it still is the same market regardless of the amount of teams in the league. More teams compete for the players, the talent will be more spread out bringing the class of the league down. 6 more teams who gets a cut on the vital TV revenue. 4 more games at home will not bring any game changing cash to the clubs even if the money from the TV deal remained the same for each club (which would mean that the total amount of TV money would have to increase a lot).

No.

In general this goes against any "re-orgnizations" when it comes to getting better competition and developing the top tiers. Just look at Allsvenskan as an example.

If we would go for a "bigger league" and divisions we would have to look abroad to open up a new market, or merge with another market probably is a better word - Finland preferably.


For example, a league that would benefit from cutting teams is our "damn u suck so hard" top tier in Football. That league is just bad for the development of the sport. The talent is nowhere near to fill up 16 teams.


Last edited by icing: 06-16-2012 at 04:14 PM.
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06-16-2012, 03:56 PM
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Hmm, not that bad idea, but is there really enough money to be made if we do this change? I'm not sure that there is. If there will be 18 teams that are gonna share the money, how much more will canal+ pay for the rights to broadcast the games? Do they even want to broadcast all the games? One night if all teams should play there should then be 9 broadcasts. That's a lot of channels and staff to be working.

Or should Viasat/Canal+ both have the broadcast rights etc?

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06-16-2012, 03:57 PM
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It might be slightly bias but reading the team list before the rest and seeing no rögle made me instantly like this

Kidding aside it's an good idea especially with the resent proof of top depth we seen in for example allsvenskan.
The big problem tho would be the injustice to the clubs not selected in the beggining of it. The media would have a field day if only some clubs got included because they have money/bigger fanbase rather then really earning it. It could backfire with alot of fans losing interest and the clubs getting even worse as a result, and we would have a select bunch of teams at the top with the rest far behind basically killing the general hockeyinterest.

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06-16-2012, 04:23 PM
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Leting some teams in and some not is obviusly a problem. You could just leave four spots open in the top of Allsvenskan one season and give them immediate promotion without playing Kvalserien.

The league average attendance is 6385. Let's say the average ticket is 200SEK. That would make teams about 1,3 million on average each home game. Take that times four and you get about five million. Add the increase in sponsor money and you allready have a substantial ammount of extra money.

The TV deal would have to be renegotiated aswell, preferrably with another broadcasting company.

I've never wanted the SEL on pay channels. I've always wanted SVT to own the rights to the league. I invision something like a CBC, Hockey night in Canada kind of deal with a number of games being showed on national TV every week wich would boost the popularity of the league through the roof even though you'd have to pay for the a couple of the extra channels wich would have to be added. Now i understand the obvious kinks in this kind of plan. But with more games, regardless of who buys the rights, they'd have to pay more! SVT has a budget of over 1,4 billion SEK. They can easily afford it, and probably more than what TV4 pays right now.

I pay taxes, i should get some fun out of it too!

I know it's lofty. But something needs to happen. If this could add another 15 millions to the teams it would mean all the difference in the world. And i don't think it'd water the lague out, just as dosing says, look at Allsvenskan. The league's been in the same state for two decades now and geting worse.


Last edited by 1912: 06-16-2012 at 04:29 PM.
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06-16-2012, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstroms pads View Post
The league average attendance is 6385. Let's say the average ticket is 200SEK. That would make teams about 1,3 million on average each home game. Take that times four and you get about five million. Add the increase in sponsor money and you allready have a substantial ammount of extra money.

The TV deal would have to be renegotiated aswell, preferrably with another broadcasting company.

I've never wanted the SEL on pay channels. I've always wanted SVT to own the rights to the league. I invision something like a CBC, Hockey night in Canada kind of deal wich would boost the popularity of the league through the roof even though you'd have to pay for the a couple of the extra channels wich would have to be added. Now i understand the obvious kinks in this kind of plan. But with more games, regardless of who buys the rights, they'd have to pay more! SVT has a budget of over 1,4 billion SEK. They can easily afford it, and probably more than what TV4 pays right now.
5 millions is not game changing money in todays hockey, far from it. Not if we are aiming at bordeline NHL players and to compete with the KHL. And why would the sponsor add more money in the clubs just because we add more teams? A sponsor in Ö-vik will not extend their sponsor budget just beacause we add Västerås and Örebro. The TV deal we have today is a great deal, the best we ever had, and SVT would never pay those money. If they could, they would have. More games also means more costs for the channel broadcasting the league so they will not just add money to the deal. The teams would most likely have to settle for a smaller piece of the pie.

Economically i dont see this work, if we aim to increase revenue.

If you by Allsvenskan mean second hockey tier, it has not been in the same state for decades. It went from two divisions to one in 99/00s, cutting teams and got much more competitive.
The Football league (Allsvenskan) has not been in the same state either. It has increased the amount of teams from 10 to 14 to 16 and has just lost more and more quality and is today a poor excuse of a league.

Edit: Actually Allsvenskan (hockey) first had 16 teams but cut that to 14. So, less teams, more competition = better league.


Last edited by icing: 06-16-2012 at 04:52 PM.
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06-16-2012, 04:40 PM
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But don't get me wrong. I have nothing against the principle of adding teams. We just have a very limited market for a big competitive league.

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06-16-2012, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by icing View Post
5 millions is not game changing money in todays hockey, far from it. Not if we are aiming at bordeline NHL players and to compete with the KHL. And why would the sponsor add more money in the clubs just because we add more teams? A sponsor in Ö-vik will not extend their sponsor budget just beacause we add Västerås and Örebro. The TV deal we have today is a great deal, the best we ever had, and SVT would never pay those money. If they could, they would have. More games also mans more costs for the channel broadcasting the league.

Economically i dont see this work, if we aim to increase revenue.

If you by Allsvenskan mean second hockey tier, it has not been in the same state for decades. It went from two divisions to one in the late 90:s, cutting teams and got much more competitive.
The Football league (Allsvenskan) has not been in the same state either. It has increased the amount of teams from 10 to 14 to 16 and has just lost more and more quality.
I always thought that SVT didn't want to pay because they didn't want to broadcast hockey. Actually, it seems TV4 gruppen has even more money. It just doesn't seem that pay channels is the way to go when you have a great opportunity in national television funded by tax-money.

And the sponsor money might not increase by adding more teams, but airing the games on national televeision reaching out to about 10 million people sure as hell would mean more big time sponsors.

And no i meant the SEL.

But realistically, what's the alternative? Combining with the FEL? People are not interrested, same as the KHL. The SEL is geting more and more watered out as we speak! Giving in to money grubbing russians is not the way to go. At least not combining the legues. The league has to be kept withing the confines of the country.

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06-16-2012, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstroms pads View Post
And no i meant the SEL.

But realistically, what's the alternative? Combining with the FEL? People are not interrested, same as the KHL. The SEL is geting more and more watered out as we speak!
Well, if you think about it the SEL has had great development during this side of the millennium. So it has not stepped backwards, it has taken several steps forwards. New arenas, turnovers and player salaries multiplying many times. Before we lost players to Switzerland and Germany because we could not match the salaries, that's not the case anymore.

Today revenue has more or less hit the roof, there is nothing more to squeeze out of the market, and that's why we hear talks about European leagues.

We are losing more players to the NHL because Europeans are fully accepted in North America now days, that was not the case before. And the NHL has also added more teams during the 90:s - more rosters to fill. And of course the outbreak of the KHL.

We can never compete with those two leagues with a domestic league in Sweden.

The world is also "a smaller place" today. Players can see themselves playing in the AHL and canadian junior leagues. So it is also a change in the players attitudes.

I could see some kind of a merge with Finland without touching the domestic league systems. In that way we keep the swedish championships and top it off with a nordic championship.


Last edited by icing: 06-16-2012 at 05:14 PM.
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06-16-2012, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by icing View Post
Well, if you think about it the SEL has had great development during this side of the millennium. So it has not stepped backwards, it has taken several steps forwards. New arenas, turnovers and player salaries multiplying many times. Before we lost players to Switzerland and Germany because we could not match the salaries, that's not the case anymore.
Players salaries has increased, but the quality of players has not. Not really. If you compare the star players of the SEL of ten years ago, they are on the same level as those today.

At least that's how i precieve it. But maybe time has messed with my memory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by icing View Post
Today revenue has more or less hit the roof, there is nothing more to squeeze out of the market, and that's why we hear talks about European leagues.
If this would happen i would stop watching hockey all together. It would kill it for me.

Biger audience, biger sponsors. There has to be something that can be done!

Quote:
Originally Posted by icing View Post
We are losing more players to the NHL because Europeans are fully accepted in North America now days, that was not the case before. And the NHL has also added more teams during the 90:s - more rosters to fill. And of course the outbreak of the KHL. The world is also "a smaller place" today. Players can see themselves playing in the AHL and canadian junior leagues. So it is also a change in the players attitudes.
Yes obviously. But being able to offer promising young players more money to stay at home raher than play in the CHL or the AHL would help immensely. The ultimate goal would obviously be the NHL for he players staying home, just taking a different route.

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We can never compete with those two leagues with a domestic league in Sweden.
Let's invade Norway and steal their oil.

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06-16-2012, 05:34 PM
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Whatever. I'm going to bed. Maybee when the whisky wears of this won't make any sense at all.

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06-17-2012, 04:47 AM
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Stupid idea.. and here is why.

We simply does not have the skill to have that many teams in the SEL. I would even claim that the 12 teams we have to day are too many since there are always one or two teams that acts as a punchingbag to everyone else and falls out to Allsvenskan and next year they are back again.

The problem is that we have a couple of teams that are behind the elite and slightly better than the teams in Allsvenskan but the answer is not to elevate those teams, they need to be much more consistant for us to do that without having SEL lose in quality.

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06-17-2012, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Markstroms pads View Post
Players salaries has increased, but the quality of players has not. Not really. If you compare the star players of the SEL of ten years ago, they are on the same level as those today.
Someone doesn't remember the goalie and defenseman quality in the SEL ten years ago

The average goaltender in the SEL was pretty bad. Only thing that brought the average up to pretty bad from horrible was a couple solid tenders..

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06-17-2012, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstroms pads
Players salaries has increased, but the quality of players has not. Not really. If you compare the star players of the SEL of ten years ago, they are on the same level as those today.

At least that's how i precieve it. But maybe time has messed with my memory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattihp View Post
Someone doesn't remember the goalie and defenseman quality in the SEL ten years ago

The average goaltender in the SEL was pretty bad. Only thing that brought the average up to pretty bad from horrible was a couple solid tenders..
Goalies is a good example, but so is the "explosion" of young players coming out of Sweden the last 5-6 years.

That's another reason why the SEL is losing more players. They are to good to stay.

Arena, audience, revenue, TV, league, webb and player quality - Everything has gotten better the last decade. The SEL, and hockey in general, has never stood this strong if we look domestic. Quality has not decreased in terms of the league. With that said, it's not a perfect situation of course and the league development has stalled a bit the last couple of seasons and in some cases taken a few steps back - For example looking at the top teams who were pushing the league forward putting on the breaks a bit.

But in the same time things are moving even outside Sweden. NHL doesnt care if a player is North American or not, only if you are good enough - that's what matter. Young kids dream of NHL, not the SEL or the national team - and they are ready to go different ways (AHL, NA junior leagues) to reach their dream. And now we have the KHL throwing money around in Europe. We cant compete in terms of money, not in a limited Swedish market.

And when more players leave Sweden and the market more or less reached its ceiling, the solution is not to add more teams in our domestic top league if we aim for a competitive league. That would never bring us closer to the NHL or the KHL.


Last edited by icing: 06-17-2012 at 08:42 AM.
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06-18-2012, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by mattihp View Post
Someone doesn't remember the goalie and defenseman quality in the SEL ten years ago

The average goaltender in the SEL was pretty bad. Only thing that brought the average up to pretty bad from horrible was a couple solid tenders..
Comparatively, are they that much better though? Save percentage has increased in the SEL, just like in the NHL. Better save percentage doesn't matter if you don't look at trends as well. Notice i wrote star players. I have hard time believing Fredrik Andersen is that much better than Henrik Lundqvist was at that age.

I agree though that defensemen has goten a bit better.

Rather, it's the depth players that has goten better, not the star players.

Is there nothing that can be done to improve the league? Is a merge with another league inevitable? If that's the case i'd rather start watching the NHL full time. The experiment is inevitably going to fail any way. Because the difference between playing eight extra games against teams from Finland in some sort of cross legue playoffs is not going to make a difference versous playing eight extra games against Swedish teams. And it just seems that much more dull than watching other Swedish teams.

What annoys me the most is that Hockeyforbundet just seems to be content with the way things are now, just scratching their belly buttons.


Last edited by 1912: 06-18-2012 at 10:20 AM.
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06-18-2012, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstroms pads View Post
Comparatively, are they that much better though? Save percentage has increased in the SEL, just like in the NHL. Better save percentage doesn't matter if you don't look at trends as well. Notice i wrote star players. I have hard time believing Fredrik Andersen is that much better than Henrik Lundqvist was at that age.
Watch the play. There are no longer goaltenders who are completly horrible technically... Especially the domestic goaltenders are ALOT better than they used to be.

Don't compare the numbers since other things have changed as well; everything has an impact on a goaltender's numbers. We don't know what numbers Lunkan would have had in the SEL last season.

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06-18-2012, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mattihp View Post
Watch the play. There are no longer goaltenders who are completly horrible technically... Especially the domestic goaltenders are ALOT better than they used to be.

Don't compare the numbers since other things have changed as well; everything has an impact on a goaltender's numbers. We don't know what numbers Lunkan would have had in the SEL last season.
Comparing goalie technique from ten years ago is equallt bad in that case. I agree that goalies have goten better technically but they have to be judged compared to thir peers during the time, both cross league and inter legue. The only european legue with better goaltenders was SM-Liiga. The state of goaltending in the SEL was not as bad as you want to make it out to be.

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06-18-2012, 03:36 PM
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12 is too little, but 18 is too many. The real problem with sel is the lower half. Getting regulated is just too much and the teams who are living on the edge have a hell to come back as a strong team. In NHL they better drafts so they can bounce back. Therefore SEL will always be divided into the top and bad teams. And those teams are often the same teams season after seasons.

Closing the league and create a draft system would the the ultimate thing to do if you want better quality. Sel teams drafting players from all the lower leagues in sweden. The last team gets to draft first obviously etc. Ofc, this would mean a lot of sacrifice. But we all know, no sacrifice, no victory.

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06-19-2012, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markstroms pads View Post
Comparing goalie technique from ten years ago is equallt bad in that case. I agree that goalies have goten better technically but they have to be judged compared to thir peers during the time, both cross league and inter legue. The only european legue with better goaltenders was SM-Liiga. The state of goaltending in the SEL was not as bad as you want to make it out to be.
At that time I bet that the NLA had better average goaltending while a league like the Bundesliga/DEL had better median goaltending. Some of the goaltending in the SEL was just awful and it seemed that anyone from the outside could amount to being a star.

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