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Old
06-19-2012, 09:14 AM
  #26
Aznguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
in my honest opinion Edmonton overpays ...
I agree

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Old
06-19-2012, 09:15 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Hope4theFuture View Post
I think the value in this proposal is fair.
How is it fair? Trading a 1LW AND 1/2D for First overall, a weak undersized 2C and a top 4 D in 2-3 years at best?

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06-19-2012, 09:15 AM
  #28
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Winnipeg isn't willing to accelerate the Oilers rebuild. It's probably best to look elsewhere Oiler fans.

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06-19-2012, 09:17 AM
  #29
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Good to know that if CLB had drafted first they could have had whatever they wanted.

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06-19-2012, 09:20 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Nucks N Canes View Post
How is it fair? Trading a 1LW AND 1/2D for First overall, a weak undersized 2C and a top 4 D in 2-3 years at best?
wow, i'll be SO glad when the draft is finally here and the Oil just draft Yakupov already! so many posters on these boards have basically downplayed Yakupov's value it's amazing. and it only seems to have happened after the Oilers won the lottery and snitched the #1 away from Columbus....coincidence?

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06-19-2012, 09:22 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by ManByng View Post
wow, i'll be SO glad when the draft is finally here and the Oil just draft Yakupov already! so many posters on these boards have basically downplayed Yakupov's value it's amazing. and it only seems to have happened after the Oilers won the lottery and snitched the #1 away fron Columbus....coincidence?
I'd say it's all a conspiracy!

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Old
06-19-2012, 09:26 AM
  #32
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ITT Oilers fans huffing paint

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Old
06-19-2012, 09:28 AM
  #33
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I think for a proposal like this to have any chance you need to change Gagner to something else to make hockey sense for Winnipeg.

The reason is because while I am not a Gagner "hater", he doesn't fill a need for Winnipeg. The Jets currently have Little and Burmistrov as small C's, so adding another small C at this stage in the game would be a pretty stupid thing to do. Especially considering the team is eventually going to move to the West.

I would be loath to give up Bogosian for Klefbom (as I am high on Bogosian and while I am not "low" on Klefbom, he presents a risk), the Gagner portion would have to be sufficient to cover that.

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Old
06-19-2012, 09:28 AM
  #34
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Even BM said the difference between one and two isnt that great. Good try oilers fans... And reason Yakupov has so much hype is cause of what he could be. He actually has a high chance of being worse than Kane...

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06-19-2012, 09:30 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
The op is offering a better deal, and it's probably a pipe dream offering a "signed" Staal.

1st overall>Staal

Klefbom>Michalek, this one is close but Klefbom's potential makes him more intriguing IMO, and Michalek's contract hurts his value a little.


Tangradi, Bortuzzo, 1st = Gagner, I think Gagner is clearly the best player with the best ceiling. The 1st is a late pick and Tangradi doesn't look like more than a 3rd liner. Bortuzzo looks like a very solid defenseman, but Winnipeg has a few decent prospects of their own bubbling under. Gagner i believe likely has much more value around the NHL than HFboards.
Wow.

Not even close. How is Klefbom possibly better then Michalek? What has he done to prove this

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Old
06-19-2012, 09:34 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by ducky View Post
I love these trade proposals where one team (Edm) gets immensely better immediately and the other team (Jets) have the potential to be as good as they were in about 3 years.
Alot of deals is this way. Not lately and they doesn't always works great for the team who gets pieces for the future

Some deals of this kind

Selänne to Anaheim for Kilger & Tverdovsky

Hossa to Pens for Armstrong, Christensen, Esposito + picks

Weight+Riesen to Blues for Hecht, Reasoner, Nemecek

Pronger to Anaheim for Smid, Lupul, + picks (Plante, Eberle)

Penner to Kings for Teubert + picks

+ many more

So don't say this kind of deals are rare, my friend!

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Old
06-19-2012, 09:35 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Nucks N Canes View Post
Even BM said the difference between one and two isnt that great. Good try oilers fans... And reason Yakupov has so much hype is cause of what he could be.
No he said it isn't as great as it was before. Yakupov has his challengers, so did Hopkins and Hall, but at the end of the day he is the consensus 1st overall (something Hall and Hopkins weren't). When 8 out of 10 scouts peg you as the guy, and it's been that way for a year+ it's no fluke. We saw this with Tavares, where a guy holds down the spot for so long he ends up getting picked apart and undervalued a little just because the hype can't last.

Quote:
He actually has a high chance of being worse than Kane...
He also has a much more significant chance of being better, and possibly by alot. Tell me what team is going to be offering an asset of Yakupov's caliber for Kane? I don't forsee many if any at all.

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06-19-2012, 09:38 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by DropIt View Post
Wow.

Not even close. How is Klefbom possibly better then Michalek? What has he done to prove this
His value is better than Michaleks. Prospects believe it or not can have more value than NHLers. Klefbom is considered one of the very best defensive prospects in the world, he has tremendous value. I think you may want to do some reading up on him. Michalek is a very good shutdown defenseman, but he is not on a value contract and his ability is below what Klefbom's very possible potential will see him become. I think a lot of people are unaware of how highly regarded Klefbom is.

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Old
06-19-2012, 09:43 AM
  #39
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A player that played amd has succeeded with lousy teammates vs a player that hasnt stayed healthy in the juniors... And klefbom maybe a top prospect D in europe but not in north america, until he comes over.

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06-19-2012, 09:53 AM
  #40
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To further add to my point, Klefbom is currently the 21st ranked prospect on Hockeys Future, ahead of regards such as Beaulieu, Ellis, J.Schultz, Morrow, Merril, Brodin (his teammate), Voynov, Elliot, Despres, Blum, Erixson (who last offseason went for two 2nds, and a solid prospect in Horak), Dumoulin, Oleksiak. Only Hamilton, Rundblad, Smith, and Gormely are ranked ahead of him.

His write up is as following:

Height: 6-3, Weight: 201

Oscar Klefbom is still very raw at this stage of his development, but he is blessed with a tremendous amount of skill and potential. He played in 33 games for Farjestad of the Swedish Elite League this year and also played a major role in helping Sweden win the gold medal at the 2012 World Junior Championships. He is an offensively gifted blueliner with above average puck skills and mobility. He has the tools to eventually develop into a power-play quarterback and has great instincts when in the offensive zone. The rawness of his game mostly revolves around his play away from the puck, but that is something that can be taught as he progresses as a prospect. The Oilers devensive group is currently a work in progress with Klefbom being a main piece that can help turn that weakness into a strength.

In addressing that scouting report, consider that he played the primary shutdown role for Gold medal winning Sweden at the WJC's on route to an all star selection, and then big minutes in the playoffs (20+) and now many scouts are starting to consider his defensive game his strong suit. Simply put Klefbom projects to have very similar potential to a guy like Bogosian, maybe even higher. If he gets there is open for debate, but potential in the NHL most certainly has it's value.

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Old
06-19-2012, 09:53 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
A 1st overall selection is a better asset than 95% of the players in the NHL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Prospects believe it or not can have more value than NHLers.
Bud, where are you coming up with this stuff? The first statistic is based on absolutely nothing and the second statement, with the bolded word, makes the statement all but useless. Of course prospects can have greater value. That has nothing to do with the hypothetical scenario you mentioned.

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Old
06-19-2012, 09:59 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
The op is offering a better deal, and it's probably a pipe dream offering a "signed" Staal.

1st overall>Staal

Klefbom>Michalek, this one is close but Klefbom's potential makes him more intriguing IMO, and Michalek's contract hurts his value a little.

Tangradi, Bortuzzo, 1st = Gagner, I think Gagner is clearly the best player with the best ceiling. The 1st is a late pick and Tangradi doesn't look like more than a 3rd liner. Bortuzzo looks like a very solid defenseman, but Winnipeg has a few decent prospects of their own bubbling under. Gagner i believe likely has much more value around the NHL than HFboards.
How does Michalek's contract hurt his value? good luck finding a good 2nd pairing dmen who can be your #1 PKer while not being a complete loss with puck for under 4 million.

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Old
06-19-2012, 10:01 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Rocket of Russia View Post
Bud, where are you coming up with this stuff?
Even though the number is used was not really meant to be taken literally, i am willing to claim it would still be reasonable. I said 95% of NHLers are less valuable than the 1st overall. NHL rosters are at 23, and there are 30 teams, so there are 690 NHLers. That means that 95% of the NHL is 655 players total, for a difference of 35. This means that for my claim to be regarded as wrong, one would need to atest to a belief that there are 35 more valuable players in the NHL than the 1st overall.

Basically, I don't think there is much more than 35 players (if even that many) in the NHL more valuable than the 1st overall, do you? If so i'd be interested in an open challenge for anybody to name them. If my claim is so odd as you've insinuated it should be easy.

The second comment i'm not sure of your issue with. You don't think prospects can have more value than an NHLer? Because that clearly flies in the face of everything i've witnessed in regards to NHL trades my whole life.

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Old
06-19-2012, 10:07 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
How does Michalek's contract hurt his value? good luck finding a good 2nd pairing dmen who can be your #1 PKer while not being a complete loss with puck for under 4 million.
I wouldn't call him overpaid, but he's not underpaid either. I never claimed his contract would be a major hinderance, but it does hurt his value a little bit in that it can't offer the kind of potential value an ELC can, or a value contract can. When i said it hurts him a little, i really did mean a "little".


Last edited by Eskimo44: 06-19-2012 at 10:15 AM.
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Old
06-19-2012, 10:15 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Rocket of Russia View Post
Bud, where are you coming up with this stuff? The first statistic is based on absolutely nothing and the second statement, with the bolded word, makes the statement all but useless. Of course prospects can have greater value. That has nothing to do with the hypothetical scenario you mentioned.
Is this your first day on HF? Have you not seen the scores of comments derailing Yakupov as just another prospect? It's a reasonable comment.

The first comment was obviously not a literal statement. It's not unusual for somebody to provide an approximation on something just to illustrate a point. I have no idea why your concerns are with something so rudimentary. It was clearly not meant to be extrapolated upon... How about instead of attacking a straw man you make a criticism on something you know relevant to the debate... And before you edited in this extra part, i offered a justification for the percentage you seem to have so much of an issue with. So go ahead and name 35 players with greater value.

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Old
06-19-2012, 10:17 AM
  #46
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The ELC is close to 3.75 against the cap for good players so you save .25 a year. Michalek plays as a 3, I dont know many rookies or players ontheir ELC that play 1,2,3...

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06-19-2012, 10:22 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Nucks N Canes View Post
The ELC is close to 3.75 against the cap for good players so you save .25 a year. Michalek plays as a 3, I dont know many rookies or players ontheir ELC that play 1,2,3...
1st overalls do, thats max cap hit for an ELC. Klefbom the defenseman being compared will make like 1.5 tops, salarys have a structure determied by draft placement. Eberle for example makes 1-1.5, while Hall and Hopkins (assuming they get all bonuses) make 3.75. Also iirc the bonus aspects of the contract can be carried over to next years cap if they are triggered and the team is over the cap, but i'm not 100% on this.

Edit: According to the Copper n' Blue the caphit is 1.275 for Klefbom.

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Old
06-19-2012, 10:25 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
1st overalls do, thats max cap hit for an ELC. Klefbom the defenseman being compared will make like 1.5 tops, salarys have a structure determied by draft placement. Eberle for example makes 1-1.5, while Hall and Hopkins (assuming they get all bonuses) make 3.5. Also iirc the bonus aspects of the contract can be carried over to next years cap if they are triggered and the team is over the cap, but i'm not 100% on this.
and how many rookie's step into a top 4 role especially a defensive one like Michalek.

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Old
06-19-2012, 10:26 AM
  #49
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Getzlaf, Perry, Seguin. Chara, Myers, Iginla, Hossa, Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Landeskog, e. Johnson?, Benn, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hall, RNH, Eberle, Huberdeau, Kopitar, Quick, Doughty, E Staal, Price, Parise, Kovalchuk, weber, suter, rinne, lundqvist, mcd?, spezza, karlsson, malkin, crosby, letang, neal, staal?, m staal?, OEL, Giroux,
Thornton, Couture, pieterangelo, sedin, sedin, ovechkin, backstrom, kane. Thats all the ones that are for sure more valuable or at the least very arguable.

Not including top prospects into the equation too...

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Old
06-19-2012, 10:46 AM
  #50
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YOU might say that, but no one on our side would. That is a huge underpayment as far as Bogo is concerned.

LOL Klefbom for Bogo is going to be an even trade. Bogo was the best D on an NHL team this year. Let me know if Klefbom ever is.
So does this mean that Laddy Smid is worth any teams #1 prospect because he was the best D on an NHL team?

I'm not arguing that Klefbom is equal to Bogosian; but your overrating Bogosian

I wouldnt trade the first overall for E.Kane. He's an unsigned RFA and rumoured to be an all around DB. Great player, but no thank you.

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