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Does anybody want Matt Carle back?

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06-19-2012, 08:24 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
That poll was horribly flawed because most people assumed, and rightfully so, that it would take Wizniewski type dollars (5.5M per) to resign Matt Carle. Many people stated that they'd voted no on that notion alone, which I agree with.

Carle is definitely worth more than 2 million per. I certainly am not his biggest fan, but I understand that in spite of his weaknesses (untimely turnovers, weak shot, and not physical), he is still a durable, good skating, good passing defenseman that can play big minutes. He needs a better, more consistent partner next season, but at around 4.25-4.5M per Carle, to me, is a reasonable signing. Much more than that, I pass and sign a stopgap (Salvador, Salo, etc) and wait for a better defenseman pool next season.
His value to teams may be that high - but as the biggest liability on a bad defensive team, i don't care what other teams value him at. To me, he's not even worth 2 mil but I know we need to fill the D spots, so that's what I would be content with if he had to be around.

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06-19-2012, 08:26 AM
  #77
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If jagr and Carle dont resign, this team could struggle to make the playoffs next year.

SO many guys with career years, some are going to come back down to earth.

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06-19-2012, 08:27 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by FlyersMania2 View Post
His value to teams may be that high - but as the biggest liability on a bad defensive team, i don't care what other teams value him at. To me, he's not even worth 2 mil but I know we need to fill the D spots, so that's what I would be content with if he had to be around.
The classic overreaction of the Philadelphia Flyers fan. Carle was not the biggest defensive liability on this team. He wasn't the anchor of the defense either, but I'd take him over Gus, MAB, or Lilja any day of the week. If you want to tell me he isn't worth $5 million +, then fine. But to say Gus, MAB, or Lilja are better than Carle is just not correct.

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06-19-2012, 08:32 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
The classic overreaction of the Philadelphia Flyers fan. Carle was not the biggest defensive liability on this team. He wasn't the anchor of the defense either, but I'd take him over Gus, MAB, or Lilja any day of the week. If you want to tell me he isn't worth $5 million +, then fine. But to say Gus, MAB, or Lilja are better than Carle is just not correct.
I think Gus or Bourdon could be groomed to be part of our d at one point. Classic overreaction?

Did you not watch the playoffs? And if you did, were you one of the few not screaming at Carle a good portion of the time? Guy is an offensive d-man with the weakest, least accurate shot ever. I never feel comfortable when he is in our own zone.

The more time he spends on the ice = the more likely something bad is going to happen. he has been overrated for awhile now and one thing is clear, without a Pronger-like guy for him to play with, his flaws far outpace his upside.

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06-19-2012, 08:33 AM
  #80
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If he resigns for cheap (under 5 mil) and we find a partner he can play with, it'll be worth re-signing him. If he wants over 5 mil I'd rather spend that money on a player that can be better than he can for more money.

Of course we all know it'll be like this:

Homer: "Carle, how does 4 mil for 4 years sound."
Carle: "Welll,"
Homer: "5 for 5."
Homer: "6 for 7 years, final offer."

I'm pretty sure that's how he signs players, he just outbids himself.

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06-19-2012, 10:17 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
If jagr and Carle dont resign, this team could struggle to make the playoffs next year.

SO many guys with career years, some are going to come back down to earth.
That's assuming you don't replace them with anything.

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06-19-2012, 10:47 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by FlyersMania2 View Post
His value to teams may be that high - but as the biggest liability on a bad defensive team, i don't care what other teams value him at. To me, he's not even worth 2 mil but I know we need to fill the D spots, so that's what I would be content with if he had to be around.
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Originally Posted by FlyersMania2 View Post
I think Gus or Bourdon could be groomed to be part of our d at one point. Classic overreaction?

Did you not watch the playoffs? And if you did, were you one of the few not screaming at Carle a good portion of the time? Guy is an offensive d-man with the weakest, least accurate shot ever. I never feel comfortable when he is in our own zone.

The more time he spends on the ice = the more likely something bad is going to happen. he has been overrated for awhile now and one thing is clear, without a Pronger-like guy for him to play with, his flaws far outpace his upside.
I find it amazing how an "incompetent" NHL defenseman such as Carle, manages to stay employed and become a tenured veteran in the league. Apparently, some fans can see right through this guy, but NHL coaches, general managers and pro scouts cannot. If only Paul Holmgren knew as much about assessing a defenseman's play as you do.

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06-19-2012, 11:03 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by FlyersMania2 View Post
I think Gus or Bourdon could be groomed to be part of our d at one point. Classic overreaction?
Uhh, you said he was the biggest defensive liability on the team, insinuating that Gus, MAB, and Lilja are better. Gus and Bourdon surely could be a part of this team's D, probably one of them will be this year. But that doesn't mean they are better than Carle.

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Did you not watch the playoffs? And if you did, were you one of the few not screaming at Carle a good portion of the time? Guy is an offensive d-man with the weakest, least accurate shot ever. I never feel comfortable when he is in our own zone.
Absolutely and he was the only one who made any mistakes IIRC. Both series the entire defense was atrocious. Thad doesn't excuse any one player for his mistakes, but it also (once again) doesn't mean MAB, Gus, or Lilja are better.

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The more time he spends on the ice = the more likely something bad is going to happen. he has been overrated for awhile now and one thing is clear, without a Pronger-like guy for him to play with, his flaws far outpace his upside.
He lead the team in ATOI in the regular season and was second in the playoffs. You're going to tell me that if he played less and Gus or MAB or Lilja played more instead, this team would have been better off? As VS pointed out...do you really think your assessment of his talent/ability is better than the coaches? If he wasn't that good, why the hell would he be leading in ice time? That isn't an accident. I'm not saying that means he is the best defender on the team, because I certainly don't think he is, but I doubt he would have 10 more minutes per night than Gus and MAB and Lilja if they were better than him.

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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
I find it amazing how an "incompetent" NHL defenseman such as Carle, manages to stay employed and become a tenured veteran in the league. Apparently, some fans can see right through this guy, but NHL coaches, general managers and pro scouts cannot. If only Paul Holmgren knew as much about assessing a defenseman's play as you do.
Everyone knows Flyers HFBoard posters are smarter than Homer and all professional scouts. JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE SCOUTS DOESN'T MEAN THEY KNOW ANYTHING!

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06-19-2012, 11:21 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
That's assuming you don't replace them with anything.
There isn't too much out there that screams lateral move or improvement if we don't sign him. We aren't getting schultz and we arent getting suter or weber.

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06-19-2012, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Uhh, you said he was the biggest defensive liability on the team, insinuating that Gus, MAB, and Lilja are better. Gus and Bourdon surely could be a part of this team's D, probably one of them will be this year. But that doesn't mean they are better than Carle.



Absolutely and he was the only one who made any mistakes IIRC. Both series the entire defense was atrocious. Thad doesn't excuse any one player for his mistakes, but it also (once again) doesn't mean MAB, Gus, or Lilja are better.



He lead the team in ATOI in the regular season and was second in the playoffs. You're going to tell me that if he played less and Gus or MAB or Lilja played more instead, this team would have been better off? As VS pointed out...do you really think your assessment of his talent/ability is better than the coaches? If he wasn't that good, why the hell would he be leading in ice time? That isn't an accident. I'm not saying that means he is the best defender on the team, because I certainly don't think he is, but I doubt he would have 10 more minutes per night than Gus and MAB and Lilja if they were better than him.



Everyone knows Flyers HFBoard posters are smarter than Homer and all professional scouts. JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE SCOUTS DOESN'T MEAN THEY KNOW ANYTHING!
Lol - I am not saying Gus or Bourdon are ready now what I am saying is rather than overpay Carle, who can't cut it without a VERY competent d-man next to him - we should be grooming prospects so that eventually we have our own in-house D-men. Instead of overpaying to sign mediocre dudes and trading off D prospects.

And as for the Homer argument - yes, he has successfully put 2 of the worst defenses I have ever seen on the ice in the past 5 years (2007 and this year). Injuries or not (Pronger and such), it shouldnt come down to having to sign a guy in his mid 30s to a pricey contract. We should be at the point now, that our own prospect system has helped fill our lineup a bit with some good d-men.

We aren't.

I love how people think Carle is worth 5 million a year - what makes him worth that much?

The typical response is that he eats minutes. That makes it worse. Do you want a guy you can't trust on the ice for more minutes? We think he's so great because he's the prettiest girl in the ugly girl beauty pageant. Doesn't say much.

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06-19-2012, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
There isn't too much out there that screams lateral move or improvement if we don't sign him. We aren't getting schultz and we arent getting suter or weber.
Jagr's top 6 spot should be replaced internally, and then the spot in the bottom 6 can be filled in externally. Carle would be harder to replace because of what is available this year. I wouldn't completely rule out Suter, unless he has a place he really wants to play like Hamhuis did.

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06-19-2012, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyersMania2 View Post
Lol The typical response is that he eats minutes. That makes it worse. Do you want a guy you can't trust on the ice for more minutes? We think he's so great because he's the prettiest girl in the ugly girl beauty pageant. Doesn't say much.
that sums it up perfectly..

cept. there are pretty girls to be had, so why even look at the ugly ones.


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06-19-2012, 12:01 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by FlyersMania2 View Post
Lol - I am not saying Gus or Bourdon are ready now what I am saying is rather than overpay Carle, who can't cut it without a VERY competent d-man next to him - we should be grooming prospects so that eventually we have our own in-house D-men. Instead of overpaying to sign mediocre dudes and trading off D prospects.
Ok you didn't say they were ready now, but you did say that Carle was the biggest defensive liability on the team, insinuating the Gus and MAB are better.

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And as for the Homer argument - yes, he has successfully put 2 of the worst defenses I have ever seen on the ice in the past 5 years (2007 and this year). Injuries or not (Pronger and such), it shouldnt come down to having to sign a guy in his mid 30s to a pricey contract. We should be at the point now, that our own prospect system has helped fill our lineup a bit with some good d-men.
Not really sure what Homer argument you are talking. As far as signing a pricey D-man in his mid thirties...Carle is in his mid 20s and the $4-$5 million is the going rate for d-men of his caliber. You aren't going to get a top four defenseman for $1-$2 million per year.

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We aren't.
That has nothing to do with Carle. Carle getting re-signed, even if it is at 5 years or more, is not going to change our defensive prospects. We have no one in the system that realistically projects to a top four defender. MAB/Gus MIGHT get there in a couple years if they are lucky. Having Carle on the team, even long term, is not going to stifle the development of any current or future prospect. Now, if we had some blue chip prospect ready to step in and only one roster spot available, I'd agree with you, let Carle walk and bring up the kid. But that kid doesn't exist right now. Next year Timonen is likely gone, if they draft a defender this year he may be ready by next season to step up, irrespective of whether or not Carle is re-signed.

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I love how people think Carle is worth 5 million a year - what makes him worth that much?

The typical response is that he eats minutes. That makes it worse. Do you want a guy you can't trust on the ice for more minutes? We think he's so great because he's the prettiest girl in the ugly girl beauty pageant. Doesn't say much.
Eating up minutes is one thing, for sure. This has been pointed out many times by different people, but it would be pretty silly for a guy to get as many minutes as Carle does if he wasn't good (or at least better than others on the team). Again, I'm not saying Carle is great or should be a Norris trophy winner or is the #1 defender on this team, but he is a top 4 defenseman. Top four defenseman cost that much money under today's salary cap. If he doesn't sign here, he will sign elsewhere for top four money and play top four minutes. Why? Because he is a top four defenseman. He makes turnovers, for sure, but I think someone else pointed out that his turnover numbers are better than a fair amount of elite defenders. That doesn't really jive with your more time on ice = more mistakes, considering his turnover numbers are not as bad as you are making them out to be.

Look, I really am not saying he is a superstar or anything along those lines. I really wouldn't even be upset if he walks. But if he wants to sign somewhere around $4.5 million, that is fine with me. He isn't the best guy out there in the price range, and he isn't the worst guy in that price range. But the bottom line is that he is a top four defenseman who deserves to make top four money. If he wasn't, he wouldn't be getting the minutes and he wouldn't be getting the money (unless you are one of the many of the opinion that you are smarter than NHL management, scouts, and analysts because you watched all 82 games this season).

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06-19-2012, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
If jagr and Carle dont resign, this team could struggle to make the playoffs next year.

SO many guys with career years, some are going to come back down to earth.
Yea but most of the guys who had career years are still developing..aside from talbot I can't help but think that said career guys may be even better next year

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06-19-2012, 12:06 PM
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Yea but most of the guys who had career years are still developing..aside from talbot I can't help but think that said career guys may be even better next year
I would expect regression in Talbot definitely. Also, Simmonds somewhat, and possibly Read. However, that should be offset by more offense out of Jvr, Couturier, and Schenn.

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06-19-2012, 12:11 PM
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that sums it up perfectly..

cept. there are pretty girls to be had, so why even look at the ugly ones.

Indeed - even if Homer took the ugliest girl at the pretty girl pageant, it would be an improvement over Carle.

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06-19-2012, 12:14 PM
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talk about stupidity with the fans that want carle back because it's the only guy, he's nothing like webber or sutter, he's worst than these players, he doesnt hit, score goals, nothing. he's no upgrade, he's damaged goods for this team, how are people not seeing that?

you people ***** about winning a cup and you say carle is the answer? what is god's name are you people watching? seriously? you act he's pronger, he's nothing like him, i would go after someone that has size, can hit, score goals, that's nothing what carle is.

he plays like crap next year, your scapegoat is bryz instead of him, you people are insane, byz cant play with these lously defensive core, they need an upgrade not a downgrade, i dont care who as long it's not carle.

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06-19-2012, 12:15 PM
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Injuries or not (Pronger and such), it shouldnt come down to having to sign a guy in his mid 30s to a pricey contract. We should be at the point now, that our own prospect system has helped fill our lineup a bit with some good d-men.
Ugh, this. We rely far too much on trades and free agency to fill out major defensive positions. Learning how to draft and develop their own defensemen would be a much more secure method. Our usual Dmen are Timonen, Coburn, Carle, Mez, Grossmann, then a rotating sixth...two of whom are Kubina and Lilja. Not a single one of them came up through the organization. That's absurd. Are there any other teams who routinely play 6 defensemen they didn't draft?

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06-19-2012, 12:16 PM
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As much as Carle irritates me I have to pretty much agree with Meltzer's perspective...not sure if it was cited previously?

I don't mind Carle too much if we can get a legit replacement for Pronger and Timonen in the next couple of years somehow. Overall, he is a good D man and some of the hate is definitely a fad IMO..I fall victim as well. If we could replace him with Suter..yeah I would not miss him at all but that doesn't seem likely.

Meltzer's take

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?p...&blogger_id=45

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06-19-2012, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
I would expect regression in Talbot definitely. Also, Simmonds somewhat, and possibly Read. However, that should be offset by more offense out of Jvr, Couturier, and Schenn.
I just pray we resign voracek cuz I see huge upside with him..other than Schenn I think he was the most improved player in the latter part of the season

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06-19-2012, 12:25 PM
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talk about stupidity with the fans that want carle back because it's the only guy, he's nothing like webber or sutter, he's worst than these players, he doesnt hit, score goals, nothing. he's no upgrade, he's damaged goods for this team, how are people not seeing that?

you people ***** about winning a cup and you say carle is the answer? what is god's name are you people watching? seriously? you act he's pronger, he's nothing like him, i would go after someone that has size, can hit, score goals, that's nothing what carle is.

he plays like crap next year, your scapegoat is bryz instead of him, you people are insane, byz cant play with these lously defensive core, they need an upgrade not a downgrade, i dont care who as long it's not carle.
woohoo I think I just did my first multi-quote. Carle IS NOT the answer. I scratch my head often. Between the fans thinking he is good and the owner saying our D was the problem this playoff run. In the latter, why on earth would we be trying to keep him? He IS PART OF THE PROBLEM. HE IS NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION.

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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Ugh, this. We rely far too much on trades and free agency to fill out major defensive positions. Learning how to draft and develop their own defensemen would be a much more secure method. Our usual Dmen are Timonen, Coburn, Carle, Mez, Grossmann, then a rotating sixth...two of whom are Kubina and Lilja. Not a single one of them came up through the organization. That's absurd. Are there any other teams who routinely play 6 defensemen they didn't draft?
Yup...nope. We try to buy our cup rather than build a team to win one. We haven't won a cup in recent history, at this point we would probably be in the same position if we would have just drafted well or even acquired some young D prospects. Instead we have traded them all away for the most part and continue to try to put a bandaid over a bullet wound.

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06-19-2012, 12:27 PM
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As much as Carle irritates me I have to pretty much agree with Meltzer's perspective...not sure if it was cited previously?

I don't mind Carle too much if we can get a legit replacement for Pronger and Timonen in the next couple of years somehow. Overall, he is a good D man and some of the hate is definitely a fad IMO..I fall victim as well. If we could replace him with Suter..yeah I would not miss him at all but that doesn't seem likely.

Meltzer's take

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?p...&blogger_id=45
But this goes back to the same problem. In order to have Matt Carle be effective we need to fulfill a Pronger/Timonen gap. So pay Carle, what 4.25 and add some seasoned, costly vet?

Would it not be cheaper to just let Carle go and try to figure out a second plan? Otherwise we continue the cycle.

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06-19-2012, 12:36 PM
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I'm convinced Bill Meltzer just reads HFBoards' Flyers forum, and instead of posting, blogs his responses. Everything he says is directed here.

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06-19-2012, 12:46 PM
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I'm convinced Bill Meltzer just reads HFBoards' Flyers forum, and instead of posting, blogs his responses. Everything he says is directed here.
They have their own message board, made up of Flyers fans, who probably talk about the same **** we do. He's probably directing it towards them.

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06-19-2012, 12:52 PM
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Carle isn't nearly as bad as a lot of you guys are making him out to be. The bigger issue is that between him, Coburn, Grossmann, and Mez we have 4 2nd pairing defenseman. I also think that people are more willing to overlook Mezsaros' shortcomings because he hits and has the big slap shot.

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