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06-14-2012, 08:59 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Apparently my ass is more knowledgeable than your brain. I won't apologize for your ignorance. Jokinen isn't unusual in that he has serious character flaws. Plenty of players do, and a lot of them are on the Wings' blacklist. I don't know if Jokinen is on the list or not, but he should be, and I'd bet he is. You've demonstrated over the years that you are often unaware of many of these players' character flaws and, when you are aware, you give them no weight. Ignorant or foolish, either way, you're living in a fantasy world.
Haha. I wonder what it is about a person who loves to cast aspersions on the character of people they rarely even watch or read about.

The Wings have a blacklist, too, eh?

It just doesn't include accused rapists, like Lilja and Nicastro?

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06-15-2012, 01:21 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Haha. I wonder what it is about a person who loves to cast aspersions on the character of people they rarely even watch or read about.
LOL. Don't be ******** because another guy on Captain Bob's players-who-should-be-avoided wishlist is being described as a.... player who should be avoided. No one loves to cast aspersions, nor are aspersions being cast. Just as players with great character and who are great teammates (i.e. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Parise) are described as such, players at the other end of the spectrum are described as such as well. And I don't even know why you care; you've explained many times in the past that a guy who has character flaws, or poor work ethic, or who is selfish, or who would likely be a bad teammate doesn't really matter to you. Potential skill rules all.


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The Wings have a blacklist, too, eh?

It just doesn't include accused rapists, like Lilja and Nicastro?
Don't be dense. I'm talking about guys outside the organization who are flawed enough from a character/team culture standpoint as it relates to hockey that the Wings are not going to go out of their way to acquire them (and yes, they have a blacklist, as I'm sure a lot of teams do). You, on the other hand, are talking about guys already in the Wings system and who were accused of (not convicted or found guilty of, or even went to trial) off-ice crimes. Talk about apples and oranges.

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06-15-2012, 04:20 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
LOL. Don't be ******** because another guy on Captain Bob's players-who-should-be-avoided wishlist is being described as a.... player who should be avoided. No one loves to cast aspersions, nor are aspersions being cast. Just as players with great character and who are great teammates (i.e. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Parise) are described as such, players at the other end of the spectrum are described as such as well. And I don't even know why you care; you've explained many times in the past that a guy who has character flaws, or poor work ethic, or who is selfish, or who would likely be a bad teammate doesn't really matter to you. Potential skill rules all.
I don't get ********** by silly talk like yours Jaster. It's not to be taken seriously.

Skill doesn't rule all. We have other guys who can be the character guys. No team in NHL history has had a locker room of "unflawed" characters.


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Don't be dense. I'm talking about guys outside the organization who are flawed enough from a character/team culture standpoint as it relates to hockey that the Wings are not going to go out of their way to acquire them (and yes, they have a blacklist, as I'm sure a lot of teams do). You, on the other hand, are talking about guys already in the Wings system and who were accused of (not convicted or found guilty of, or even went to trial) off-ice crimes. Talk about apples and oranges.
You're the one being dense. You say the Wings have a blacklist of players who the Wings won't sign because of character issues.
Yet the Wings signed Nicastro, accused of ****, and Lilja, accused of ****. In fact, they signed them both with months of the accusations. Did they **** anyone? I dunno. But in Lilja's case, AT BEST, he was out gangbanging some broad with teammates. Hardly something most people would view as the act that of a *character guy.*
Nicastro? I don't know any details.
But we also brought back McCarty... a guy know all over Detroit for his character flaws.
We signed Danny Markov, a guy known to be a drunkard and space cadet.

I'm not suggesting we fill the entire team with these guys. But I'm not going to be a Nazi about it.

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06-15-2012, 04:41 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I don't get **********
You're ******** 50% of the time here.


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by silly talk like yours Jaster. It's not to be taken seriously.
Not by you, no, because you don't want to believe it, for whatever silly reason. And you don't ever pay attention to intangibles like character. To you, everyone in the NHL is a good guy to have on the team, assuming he has potential skill.


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Skill doesn't rule all.
Please, your list of undesirables with skill goes on and on and on. Axelsson, Zherdev, Semin, Jokinen, etc.


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We have other guys who can be the character guys. No team in NHL history has had a locker room of "unflawed" characters.
That's not the point. It's not that the Wings want all perfect guys, or all "character" guys. That's a strawman you are constructing. It's that there is a tier, at the bottom, to be avoided. Guys who quietly go about the business, not really inspiring the team, but not making waves, a guy like, say, Rusty Salei.... are welcomed aplenty in Detroit.


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You're the one being dense. You say the Wings have a blacklist of players who the Wings won't sign because of character issues.
Yet the Wings signed Nicastro, accused of ****, and Lilja, accused of ****. In fact, they signed them both with months of the accusations. Did they **** anyone? I dunno. But in Lilja's case, AT BEST, he was out gangbanging some broad with teammates. Hardly something most people would view as the act that of a *character guy.*
Nicastro? I don't know any details.
But we also brought back McCarty... a guy know all over Detroit for his character flaws.
We signed Danny Markov, a guy known to be a drunkard and space cadet.
You don't get it. You're failing to see the difference between the guys you listed, and the guys I'm talking about. Personal character flaws that don't translate to the lockerroom or to the ice are not the issue, and don't really matter. It's character flaws that do translate to those areas, and that can negatively affect a team, that are avoided. Laziness, selfishness, poor attitudes, etc.

Nicastro was accused of something that didn't even go to trial. Irrelevant.

Lilja was accused of something and essentially found innocent. A single guy in a gang bang? LOL. I know a story about Yzerman that was worse. Who cares.

McCarty? Long-time Wing who left it all on the ice, a warrior and solid teammate.

Markov? Warrior and solid teammate.

These guys are not in the same class as your malcontents.


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I'm not suggesting we fill the entire team with these guys. But I'm not going to be a Nazi about it.
Haha. A Nazi. A holocaust against good guys who are unfairly having aspersions cast upon them! A most horrific act! Get real. The Wings don't like some guys you do because they care about things that you don't. Get over it.

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06-16-2012, 02:30 PM
  #80
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Can you back up the criticisms of Olli? What exactly are "his" flaws? Because this is the first I'm hearing of it.

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06-16-2012, 07:50 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by TheYuleGoat View Post
Can you back up the criticisms of Olli? What exactly are "his" flaws? Because this is the first I'm hearing of it.
I don't have links, but pretty much every team he's been on has had something negative to say. Guys like Gillis, Sutter, and Mellanby have all had negative things to say about ol' Olli. And if you believe the scuttlebutt, Olesz, Belak, and Vanbiesbrouck all have had negative things to say.

Basically too many players and management have had negative things to say to completely ignore.

Here's a quote from Jokinen himself about his drinking problem:

Quote:
“I didn’t like to have a hangover. It wasn’t like I would drink every day, but when you go out, you would get plastered up pretty good, and it would take two or three days to recover. When you get older, that gets even harder and harder — you can’t do that very often. I’d have a major headache for several days, and that was the part I didn’t enjoy.”
A major headache for several days? Yikes. Yeah, that's probably going to affect your performance and that's a little more drinking than just getting sloppy. Apparently he just sobered up THIS past season.

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06-16-2012, 09:13 PM
  #82
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Around the time Florida traded him to Phoenix, I read some articles stating that Jokinen just wasn't a good team guy -- routinely the first one to leave practice, etc.

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06-18-2012, 01:35 PM
  #83
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I love Homer and everything he has done to this team, but maybe it's time to move on.
He's started to look too slow to this league.

We need fresh faces, physicality and some scoring touch.

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06-18-2012, 01:45 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
I don't have links, but pretty much every team he's been on has had something negative to say. Guys like Gillis, Sutter, and Mellanby have all had negative things to say about ol' Olli. And if you believe the scuttlebutt, Olesz, Belak, and Vanbiesbrouck all have had negative things to say.

Basically too many players and management have had negative things to say to completely ignore.

Here's a quote from Jokinen himself about his drinking problem:



A major headache for several days? Yikes. Yeah, that's probably going to affect your performance and that's a little more drinking than just getting sloppy. Apparently he just sobered up THIS past season.
Yet, Calgary brought him back.
Must be a real cancer.

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06-18-2012, 01:48 PM
  #85
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^That doesn't automatically mean he isn't. This is pro sports, we get fooled twice all the time. Calgary isn't exactly a hot destination for skilled players either. He seems like one of those guys who, if you're afforded the opportunity to be a little picky, you don't sign him. If you're someone like Calgary, you do it and cross your fingers.

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06-18-2012, 07:21 PM
  #86
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Take it for what you want but i know some stuff from a source who deals close with "aspects" of homer's personal life.. he ain't coming back.. i'd bet $$ on it..

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06-18-2012, 07:30 PM
  #87
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Take it for what you want but i know some stuff from a source who deals close with "aspects" of homer's personal life.. he ain't coming back.. i'd bet $$ on it..
I would too. I'm guessing he doesn't even come back if KH wants him back.

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06-18-2012, 07:41 PM
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I would too. I'm guessing he doesn't even come back if KH wants him back.
look at what he did this year. Do you really want to be remembered as "that guy" who didnt just go away when you should have? i hope not.

I love what he helped us accomplish and he will forever be remembered like the others. That being said, it's time to let it go.

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06-18-2012, 07:45 PM
  #89
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the only reason its not a done deal yet is because he's on a family vacation.

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06-18-2012, 07:52 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
look at what he did this year. Do you really want to be remembered as "that guy" who didnt just go away when you should have? i hope not.

I love what he helped us accomplish and he will forever be remembered like the others. That being said, it's time to let it go.
Agree. I don't see Babcock playing him much this season, and with his pal Nick gone, there's no reason to stick it out here.

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06-18-2012, 09:13 PM
  #91
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Homer has played a lot of hard minutes. He has got more out of his skill than most NHL players and that's a testament to him. But it's time, he just isn't an effective player anymore. If he was an effective PP specialist i could see the point of bringing him back, sadly that isn't the case

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06-18-2012, 09:21 PM
  #92
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If he was an effective PP specialist i could see the point of bringing him back, sadly that isn't the case
I think the problem is that he's ONLY effect on the PP. Say what you will about Homer, but his goals on the PP were his shining achievement last year. Kovalchuk had 10 powerplay goals. So did Holmstrom.

Except Kovalchuk played an entire 2 minutes more on the PP per game and is, arguably, one of the most dynamic scorers in the league.

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06-18-2012, 09:37 PM
  #93
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I saw one of those stupid metrics yesterday that the hockey nerds love that ranked Homer in the 20 worst players in the NHL

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06-18-2012, 10:39 PM
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^Those things are for stat nerds who don't know what's going on when they watch hockey.
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
look at what he did this year. Do you really want to be remembered as "that guy" who didnt just go away when you should have? i hope not.

I love what he helped us accomplish and he will forever be remembered like the others. That being said, it's time to let it go.
Do you really think he was that bad? The last month he was very good. If he can hold up health wise he still has a little gas in the tank. He showed it by being one of the few Wings to actually bust ass and try out there when other players were coasting. I'm still shocked no one wanted him gone the two seasons prior to this one when he sucked, but when he actually moved with a purpose this year we want him out. LOL what we we going to replace him with? I'd rather have Homer's experience, puck control, willingness to go to the net and the corners and PP presence over some schmuck who is faster but isn't as effective.

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06-19-2012, 02:32 AM
  #95
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I saw one of those stupid metrics yesterday that the hockey nerds love that ranked Homer in the 20 worst players in the NHL
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Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
^Those things are for stat nerds who don't know what's going on when they watch hockey.
Heh, people said the same about sabremetrics in baseball, and now all 30 teams use metrics to some extent. Granted, hockey is a more difficult game to apply metrics to and, unlike baseball, the sport hasn't been mis-evaluating players as bad as baseball for 100 years, so metrics probably shouldn't play as big of a roll in hockey as they do in baseball, but they do have their place.

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06-19-2012, 03:14 AM
  #96
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Baseball is built for metrics. Hockey couldn't be further from that.

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06-19-2012, 12:06 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
Baseball is built for metrics. Hockey couldn't be further from that.
It's far, but it could certainly be further. There are measurables inherent in the game, so there are some metrics that are applicable. They're already out there, even if a lot of people abuse them to the point of being useless.

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06-19-2012, 01:41 PM
  #98
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That's the problem. Most fans who go onto internet forums live and die on stats, even if they say they don't. They can't watch every player but they have an opinion on every player. Notice how we apply stats more to players on other teams than our own? Imagine if we looked at other forums using stats to judge our players, we'd know right off the bat who was right and who was wrong about whoever played for us. But we don't realize we look that silly when the tables are turned. You can use the most precise metrics available as nothing more than a helpful guide, but not a rule. Especially with how fast the game changes today.

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06-19-2012, 02:08 PM
  #99
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It's far, but it could certainly be further. There are measurables inherent in the game, so there are some metrics that are applicable. They're already out there, even if a lot of people abuse them to the point of being useless.
Offense and defense being played simultaneously, players shifting on the fly for both teams, trying to distinguish what constitutes a quality shot on goal versus an easy save. I can see where metrics have their place in baseball, but I'm struggling to think of how hockey could be any more impossible to apply meaningful metrics to.

Stats-obsessed fans can try to reduce it to metrics but there's just too many variables for it to be meaningful in hockey.



More than anything I think fans on forums tend to overly rely on statistics (and not just the advanced metrics stuff) to support an opinion they have on a player they really don't get to see play that often.

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06-19-2012, 03:34 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Harold Snepsts View Post
Offense and defense being played simultaneously, players shifting on the fly for both teams, trying to distinguish what constitutes a quality shot on goal versus an easy save. I can see where metrics have their place in baseball, but I'm struggling to think of how hockey could be any more impossible to apply meaningful metrics to.

Stats-obsessed fans can try to reduce it to metrics but there's just too many variables for it to be meaningful in hockey.



More than anything I think fans on forums tend to overly rely on statistics (and not just the advanced metrics stuff) to support an opinion they have on a player they really don't get to see play that often.

How do you measure a grind line shift that doesn't result in a shot in goal but has the defense watching their back and running around and gets the fans into the game.

It's funny looking at these hockey metrics. About half the people at the top of tese stats have no business being ranked among the best in the game at anything.

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