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Does anybody want Matt Carle back?

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Old
06-19-2012, 12:59 PM
  #101
FlyersMania2
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
Carle isn't nearly as bad as a lot of you guys are making him out to be. The bigger issue is that between him, Coburn, Grossmann, and Mez we have 4 2nd pairing defenseman. I also think that people are more willing to overlook Mezsaros' shortcomings because he hits and has the big slap shot.
If Carle didn't play on the first pairing, I would have less problems with him. The big problem is, we treat him like the go-to guy and quite frankly, he can't have that role.

I like Mez and hope his shortcomings eventually are resolved. I often feel like as soon as I think he is improving he has a set back either injury or otherwise. What's funny is that he has looked more like an offensive defenseman than Carle yet Carle is given this treatment by some fans as though he is just that.

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06-19-2012, 01:02 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by FlyersMania2 View Post



Yup...nope. We try to buy our cup rather than build a team to win one. We haven't won a cup in recent history, at this point we would probably be in the same position if we would have just drafted well or even acquired some young D prospects. Instead we have traded them all away for the most part and continue to try to put a bandaid over a bullet wound.
Indeed. The Flyers don't seem to understand that the salary cap is designed to neutralize that strategy.

I just went to Capgeek and compared the 23 million (before Carle is signed; that number could be 28 million afterwards) the Flyers have tied up in defensemen to the rest of the league, I found that the Flyers are spending more cap-wise on defense than every other team in the NHL. Most teams are in the 14-20 range. Detroit is at 12 million, pre-Suter. LA is at 19. St. Louis is sitting at 13 without Colaiacovo re-signed. The Flyers are dumping all this cap money into defense, more than anybody else, and what is the result? They need to use that money more intelligently; being able to use cheap defensive talent brought up from within would free up loads of cap space.

Edit: With that in mind, I'm not all that happy about throwing 4-5 million at Carle, especially after looking around and seeing the cap hits owned by several comparable defensemen.

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06-19-2012, 01:06 PM
  #103
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If he makes more than coburn it will be a big step back for the team, but it seems that its a step forward and two steps back every year.

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06-19-2012, 01:42 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by FlyersMania2 View Post
If Carle didn't play on the first pairing, I would have less problems with him. The big problem is, we treat him like the go-to guy and quite frankly, he can't have that role.
I don't disagree with you, but if he's getting those minutes simply because there is nobody else to put there, I don't think that's a fair criticism of Carle. If Briere was out on the penalty kill people would blame him, but the majority of the anger would be placed on whichever moron thought it was a good idea to put him out there.

Carle is a capable and fairly consistent 2nd pairing defenseman. Coburn and Meszaros aren't as consistent, however when they are on top of their game they are better options. I would rather see the Flyers let Carle walk and get Ryan Suter (obviously), but if Suter isn't an option who are you going to slot into the top 4 to take Carle's minutes? Weber may be an option, but any blockbuster trade is going to involve a capable top 4 defenseman in return and I don't know about you guys but I don't really want to see a 3rd pairing of MAB, Gust, and/or Lilja.

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06-19-2012, 02:09 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by FlyersMania2 View Post
Lol - I am not saying Gus or Bourdon are ready now what I am saying is rather than overpay Carle, who can't cut it without a VERY competent d-man next to him - we should be grooming prospects so that eventually we have our own in-house D-men. Instead of overpaying to sign mediocre dudes and trading off D prospects.

And as for the Homer argument - yes, he has successfully put 2 of the worst defenses I have ever seen on the ice in the past 5 years (2007 and this year). Injuries or not (Pronger and such), it shouldnt come down to having to sign a guy in his mid 30s to a pricey contract. We should be at the point now, that our own prospect system has helped fill our lineup a bit with some good d-men.

We aren't.

I love how people think Carle is worth 5 million a year - what makes him worth that much?

The typical response is that he eats minutes. That makes it worse. Do you want a guy you can't trust on the ice for more minutes? We think he's so great because he's the prettiest girl in the ugly girl beauty pageant. Doesn't say much.
I love how you ignore the facts. Carle has played the majority of the last 2 Seasons without Pronger, and has played very well. So where are you getting it that Carle can't cut it without a competent D man next him? And show me a defenseman who can make a good pairing without a complimentary partner next to him.

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Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
talk about stupidity with the fans that want carle back because it's the only guy, he's nothing like webber or sutter, he's worst than these players, he doesnt hit, score goals, nothing. he's no upgrade, he's damaged goods for this team, how are people not seeing that?

you people ***** about winning a cup and you say carle is the answer? what is god's name are you people watching? seriously? you act he's pronger, he's nothing like him, i would go after someone that has size, can hit, score goals, that's nothing what carle is.

he plays like crap next year, your scapegoat is bryz instead of him, you people are insane, byz cant play with these lously defensive core, they need an upgrade not a downgrade, i dont care who as long it's not carle.
More importantly, how is Holmgren not seeing what your seeing? Why can't Holmgren see that he's damaged goods. And the rest of the professional NHL people? They must be incompetent. They must not know what you know.

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I'm convinced Bill Meltzer just reads HFBoards' Flyers forum, and instead of posting, blogs his responses. Everything he says is directed here.
Do you really think this is the only message board that talks about the Flyers?

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Originally Posted by FlyersMania2 View Post
If Carle didn't play on the first pairing, I would have less problems with him. The big problem is, we treat him like the go-to guy and quite frankly, he can't have that role.

I like Mez and hope his shortcomings eventually are resolved. I often feel like as soon as I think he is improving he has a set back either injury or otherwise. What's funny is that he has looked more like an offensive defenseman than Carle yet Carle is given this treatment by some fans as though he is just that.
How exactlly has Meszaros looked more like an offensive defenseman then Carle has? HAs Meszaros put up the consistent point totals that Carle has. Has Meszaros led the NHL in Even Strength points for defenseman?

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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Indeed. The Flyers don't seem to understand that the salary cap is designed to neutralize that strategy.

I just went to Capgeek and compared the 23 million (before Carle is signed; that number could be 28 million afterwards) the Flyers have tied up in defensemen to the rest of the league, I found that the Flyers are spending more cap-wise on defense than every other team in the NHL. Most teams are in the 14-20 range. Detroit is at 12 million, pre-Suter. LA is at 19. St. Louis is sitting at 13 without Colaiacovo re-signed. The Flyers are dumping all this cap money into defense, more than anybody else, and what is the result? They need to use that money more intelligently; being able to use cheap defensive talent brought up from within would free up loads of cap space.

Edit: With that in mind, I'm not all that happy about throwing 4-5 million at Carle, especially after looking around and seeing the cap hits owned by several comparable defensemen.
Who are thies comparable defenseman?

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06-19-2012, 02:32 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
I love how you ignore the facts. Carle has played the majority of the last 2 Seasons without Pronger, and has played very well. So where are you getting it that Carle can't cut it without a competent D man next him? And show me a defenseman who can make a good pairing without a complimentary partner next to him.



More importantly, how is Holmgren not seeing what your seeing? Why can't Holmgren see that he's damaged goods. And the rest of the professional NHL people? They must be incompetent. They must not know what you know.



Do you really think this is the only message board that talks about the Flyers?



How exactlly has Meszaros looked more like an offensive defenseman then Carle has? HAs Meszaros put up the consistent point totals that Carle has. Has Meszaros led the NHL in Even Strength points for defenseman?



Who are thies comparable defenseman?

Okay we get it, you are pro-Carle - it has put some blinders on you.

Carle is turnover prone in his own zone.

He has the WEAKEST, LEAST accurate shot for an "offensive" defenseman I have ever seen. Mez's random forward-like moves this season are what I was referring to.

Carle, without Pronger, looks terrible. He looks out of position. He has missed his man how many times in front of our own net? Dude deflects more pucks into our net than into the opposing team's net.

He appears much better than he is bc of assists. But, I assure you there are cheaper, less turnover prone defensemen that could come in and replace Carle as adequate second pairing guys without needing 1st pairing money and a seasoned vet to make up for mistakes.

That is all.

I mean what do you really think? Do you think I want Carle to be bad? Why would I? It's a slim market and we haven't built our farm system up to feed our team so of course I would love it if Matt Carle was better than he is.

I am not one of those people who need a whipping boy. I just think, despite the occasional good game, Carle is more noticeable on the ice than he should be and for the wrong reasons.

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06-19-2012, 02:58 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Indeed. The Flyers don't seem to understand that the salary cap is designed to neutralize that strategy.

I just went to Capgeek and compared the 23 million (before Carle is signed; that number could be 28 million afterwards) the Flyers have tied up in defensemen to the rest of the league, I found that the Flyers are spending more cap-wise on defense than every other team in the NHL. Most teams are in the 14-20 range. Detroit is at 12 million, pre-Suter. LA is at 19. St. Louis is sitting at 13 without Colaiacovo re-signed. The Flyers are dumping all this cap money into defense, more than anybody else, and what is the result? They need to use that money more intelligently; being able to use cheap defensive talent brought up from within would free up loads of cap space.

Edit: With that in mind, I'm not all that happy about throwing 4-5 million at Carle, especially after looking around and seeing the cap hits owned by several comparable defensemen.
I'm not sure I understand this argument. Are you saying that the Flyers should spend less on defense, on that they should just spend it differently? Because the Flyers don't need offense, so it would seem redundant to spend the $$$ on another winger or center, and Bryz already makes $5+ million.

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06-19-2012, 03:29 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post

Who are thies comparable defenseman?
I don't really feel like looking at the cap hit of every single NHL defenseman for the second time today. I don't really have the time; typing this up alone will take long enough without that. When I looked through earlier, though, there were a lot of cap hits attached to d-men that made me wonder what silly hell this is that we have to pay Carle 4-5million.

"Comparable" is probably not the best word to use, but I still can't think of a better one. There are several young defensemen who are still RFAs who are as capable, or nearly as capable, as Carle is at 5v5 defensive play. Despite what you seem to think, Carle is not some special unique talent; there are quite a few good young players across the league. Their cap hits are all lower than Carle's projected contract, and some of them last a few more years. Some of their ceilings are realistically higher than Carle's. Yet Carle is going to be paid more than them because his assist totals have been bloated from a few seasons of playing with one of the premier offenses in the NHL. What frustrates me is that we HAVE to sign Carle to a raise, because we have no other choice. I wish we had some young, capable defenseman who could step in to Carle's role at a much lower price. We don't, because the organization is bad at developing defense. It's been a problem for ages, and it's sharply felt this offseason.

Carle's projected cap hit compared to defensemen who are far more capable is equally frustrating. He might get paid the same or more than Kronwall, for instance. That's amazingly stupid; Carle is nowhere near as good as Kronwall.

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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm not sure I understand this argument. Are you saying that the Flyers should spend less on defense, on that they should just spend it differently? Because the Flyers don't need offense, so it would seem redundant to spend the $$$ on another winger or center, and Bryz already makes $5+ million.
I'm saying the Flyers should learn how to develop and grow their own defensive talent so they can fill out the D with homegrown RFAs, which are cheaper, so they can spend that money better. it creates more cap flexibility through the whole roster, which we will be needing in a couple years. Their inability to develop defensemen and reliance on FA and trades to acquire the entire blue line hampers their ability to spend efficiently across the team.

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06-19-2012, 03:30 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm not sure I understand this argument. Are you saying that the Flyers should spend less on defense, on that they should just spend it differently? Because the Flyers don't need offense, so it would seem redundant to spend the $$$ on another winger or center, and Bryz already makes $5+ million.
The point is we buy defense. There is a reason our D costs that much yet is never one of the top ten in the NHL. We buy the peices, we don't homegrow them. If we started to do that a few years back, we would still have key names on our blueline but they would be mixed in with some prospects groomed through our farm system.

Instead we have to pay to fill in the peices.

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06-19-2012, 03:52 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by FlyersMania2 View Post
Okay we get it, you are pro-Carle - it has put some blinders on you.

Carle is turnover prone in his own zone.

He has the WEAKEST, LEAST accurate shot for an "offensive" defenseman I have ever seen. Mez's random forward-like moves this season are what I was referring to.

Carle, without Pronger, looks terrible. He looks out of position. He has missed his man how many times in front of our own net? Dude deflects more pucks into our net than into the opposing team's net.

He appears much better than he is bc of assists. But, I assure you there are cheaper, less turnover prone defensemen that could come in and replace Carle as adequate second pairing guys without needing 1st pairing money and a seasoned vet to make up for mistakes.

That is all.

I mean what do you really think? Do you think I want Carle to be bad? Why would I? It's a slim market and we haven't built our farm system up to feed our team so of course I would love it if Matt Carle was better than he is.

I am not one of those people who need a whipping boy. I just think, despite the occasional good game, Carle is more noticeable on the ice than he should be and for the wrong reasons.
What do I really think? I think that your opinions of Carle couldn't possibly be off target more. And I still can't figure out why Holmgren doesn't see what you see. And why the rest of the NHL, and even the legitimate sources that cover and write about the NHL and it's players don't see what you see. Apparently your one of those fans that know better then they do.

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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
I don't really feel like looking at the cap hit of every single NHL defenseman for the second time today. I don't really have the time; typing this up alone will take long enough without that. When I looked through earlier, though, there were a lot of cap hits attached to d-men that made me wonder what silly hell this is that we have to pay Carle 4-5million.

"Comparable" is probably not the best word to use, but I still can't think of a better one. There are several young defensemen who are still RFAs who are as capable, or nearly as capable, as Carle is at 5v5 defensive play. Despite what you seem to think, Carle is not some special unique talent; there are quite a few good young players across the league. Their cap hits are all lower than Carle's projected contract, and some of them last a few more years. Some of their ceilings are realistically higher than Carle's. Yet Carle is going to be paid more than them because his assist totals have been bloated from a few seasons of playing with one of the premier offenses in the NHL. What frustrates me is that we HAVE to sign Carle to a raise, because we have no other choice. I wish we had some young, capable defenseman who could step in to Carle's role at a much lower price. We don't, because the organization is bad at developing defense. It's been a problem for ages, and it's sharply felt this offseason.

Carle's projected cap hit compared to defensemen who are far more capable is equally frustrating. He might get paid the same or more than Kronwall, for instance. That's amazingly stupid; Carle is nowhere near as good as Kronwall.



It's pretty clear to me that you don't understand the NHL salary Structure and how it works. And the difference between RFA's and UFA's. Secondly, I never stated that Carle is a unique talent. So those are your words not mine. And please don't be putting them in my mouth. And thirdly, the Flyers don't have to re-sign Carle. If they do re-sign him, it's because they want to.

And as far as Kronwall is concerned. I have no issue saying that there are some areas where Kronwall is better. Such as a hitter and a goal scorer from the back end. But to say that there is a drastic difference between the two players. That's where your obvious bias against Carle comes in. The two players are comparable as far as overall ability. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Like all defenseman

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06-19-2012, 03:59 PM
  #111
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I understand the salary structure just fine. RFAs are cheaper. We have NONE of them in any real defensive role. That's a problem, and it seems to be one that the Flyers don't know how to fix. As a result we constantly have to roll with overpaid guys like Mez and soon-to-be-overpaid Carle.

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06-19-2012, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
I understand the salary structure just fine. RFAs are cheaper. We have NONE of them in any real defensive role. That's a problem, and it seems to be one that the Flyers don't know how to fix. As a result we constantly have to roll with overpaid guys like Mez and soon-to-be-overpaid Carle.
If you say you understand it, why did you compare Carle to RFA's? And secondly, if you do understand it, you wouldn't be saying that Carle is going to be overpaid. Because he's not. If the rumors turn out to be true, Carle will be accepting below market value, and will therefore be underpaid.

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06-19-2012, 04:15 PM
  #113
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If you say you understand it, why did you compare Carle to RFA's? And secondly, if you do understand it, you wouldn't be saying that Carle is going to be overpaid. Because he's not. If the rumors turn out to be true, Carle will be accepting below market value, and will therefore be underpaid.
What I'm saying is that we need our own (quality) RFA's so we can have serviceable, cheap defensemen instead of paying everybody close to 4 million. We don't need 4 guys making 3.5-4.5 million (#2 money). Literally nobody else does that, and their results have generally been just as good or better now that Pronger is gone and Timonen is declining. It's not paying off. Unfortunately, we have nobody like that in our system and nothing on the horizon; I don't know that Gus, Marshall, or MAB are that sort of player. So we really have no choice this year but to continue the trend.

I'll believe in the hometown discount when I see it, and when I see the terms. If it comes with a NTC that's bad. We are going to need flexibility when we go to try and replace Timonen. This team has too many NTCs as it is.

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06-19-2012, 04:22 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
What I'm saying is that we need our own (quality) RFA's so we can have serviceable, cheap defensemen instead of paying everybody close to 4 million. We don't need 4 guys making 3.5-4.5 million (#2 money). Literally nobody else does that, and their results have generally been just as good or better now that Pronger is gone and Timonen is declining. It's not paying off. Unfortunately, we have nobody like that in our system and nothing on the horizon; I don't know that Gus, Marshall, or MAB are that sort of player. So we really have no choice this year but to continue the trend.

I'll believe in the hometown discount when I see it, and when I see the terms. If it comes with a NTC that's bad. We are going to need flexibility when we go to try and replace Timonen. This team has too many NTCs as it is.
I don't disagree that the Flyers need to do a better job drafting and developing talent, especially at the defensive position. But what does that have to do with what Carle should paid?

It's hard to sign a top Free Agent and not give a movement clause, a limited one at the least. The flexibility is built in when Timonen needs to be replaced. And that's the expiring 6.33M Cap hit. Re-signing Carle is not going to hurt the Flyers future flexibility.

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06-19-2012, 05:13 PM
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I don't disagree that the Flyers need to do a better job drafting and developing talent, especially at the defensive position. But what does that have to do with what Carle should paid?

It's hard to sign a top Free Agent and not give a movement clause, a limited one at the least. The flexibility is built in when Timonen needs to be replaced. And that's the expiring 6.33M Cap hit. Re-signing Carle is not going to hurt the Flyers future flexibility.
Not only will we need flexibility for a #1 or another #2, but Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier, and Read all need raises soon. That money is going to have to come from somewhere, especially since we don't (currently) have anyone in the system (besides maybe Cousins, but again, still somewhat of a long shot,) to replace them on a cheap contract. Basically, we could very well be exactly where we were last year with Richards/Carter last year if we don't change our ways.

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06-19-2012, 06:00 PM
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If you say you understand it, why did you compare Carle to RFA's? And secondly, if you do understand it, you wouldn't be saying that Carle is going to be overpaid. Because he's not. If the rumors turn out to be true, Carle will be accepting below market value, and will therefore be underpaid.

actually he wants alot of money, if he wanted less he would have a contract by now, he wants suter money and that's not going to happen they are not going to commit 5 to 6 million on a mediocre defensemen that the flyers can get out of phantom players plus they need that money on a big time defensemen,

actually alot of fans that are opposed to carle signing here and you are the only one that's incompetent and ignoring the facts of what he's done on ice or how he defends in the ice. i dont understand how you can so blind by that? it's all about image rather than talent and work.

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06-19-2012, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
actually he wants alot of money, if he wanted less he would have a contract by now, he wants suter money and that's not going to happen they are not going to commit 5 to 6 million on a mediocre defensemen that the flyers can get out of phantom players plus they need that money on a big time defensemen,
Your incorrect. Carle is not signed due to tagging space issues, not because he wants a lot of money. As you make more posts, now stating that a player on Phantoms can match Carle as a player, your credibility comes more into question.


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actually alot of fans that are opposed to carle signing here and you are the only one that's incompetent and ignoring the facts of what he's done on ice or how he defends in the ice. i dont understand how you can so blind by that? it's all about image rather than talent and work.
All the facts support my opinion of Carle. I'm having a hard time understanding how Paul Holmgren doesn't see what you see. He must be incompetent and is also blind to that. I guess he doesn't know that it's all about image rather then talent and work. Whatever hell that means! LOL

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06-19-2012, 06:35 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
actually he wants alot of money, if he wanted less he would have a contract by now, he wants suter money and that's not going to happen they are not going to commit 5 to 6 million on a mediocre defensemen that the flyers can get out of phantom players plus they need that money on a big time defensemen,

actually alot of fans that are opposed to carle signing here and you are the only one that's incompetent and ignoring the facts of what he's done on ice or how he defends in the ice. i dont understand how you can so blind by that? it's all about image rather than talent and work.
You should start watching the games and quit just following what everyone else says. He is a solid player that can contribute to this team and is one of the best compliment D's on our team. Only if we can trade for a number 1 or number 2 d-man to pair him up with then he will play at his best.

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06-19-2012, 07:18 PM
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You should start watching the games and quit just following what everyone else says. He is a solid player that can contribute to this team and is one of the best compliment D's on our team. Only if we can trade for a number 1 or number 2 d-man to pair him up with then he will play at his best.
He wants Jody Shelley on the team next year. His opinion is invalid.

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06-19-2012, 07:21 PM
  #120
flyersfan187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Go For It View Post
He wants Jody Shelley on the team next year. His opinion is invalid.
Then I guess I should take back his following what everyone else says on here!!!

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Old
06-19-2012, 07:29 PM
  #121
dingbathero
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Van: Post the Pro's and Con's list of Carle please. Just to get an idea of where your head is at when speaking about him and his game... nothing more, all game and how he plays as a D man.

Thanks.

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Old
06-19-2012, 07:31 PM
  #122
VanSciver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingbathero View Post
Van: Post the Pro's and Con's list of Carle please. Just to get an idea of where your head is at when speaking about him and his game... nothing more, all game and how he plays as a D man.

Thanks.
Been there done that. Plenty of posts in the Carle threads on how I rate Carle as a player.

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Old
06-19-2012, 07:57 PM
  #123
Giroux 4 MVP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Been there done that. Plenty of posts in the Carle threads on how I rate Carle as a player.
I think your Matt carle himself, trying to change the minds of the fans

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Old
06-19-2012, 07:59 PM
  #124
VanSciver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux 4 MVP View Post
I think your Matt carle himself, trying to change the minds of the fans

Nope, could care less about changing the mind of anybody. Just simply pointing out the numerous and repeated inaccuracies of the Carle bashers.

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Old
06-19-2012, 08:04 PM
  #125
Go For It
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Nope, could care less about changing the mind of anybody. Just simply pointing out the numerous and repeated inaccuracies of the Carle bashers.
Carle has a below average shot. True or false?

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