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06-19-2012, 06:57 AM
  #1
habakkuk
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Roles and responsibilities.

As one of the senior members of the forum ( I can remember listening to the french radio broadcast of John Furgeson's and Yvan Cournoyer's first game) I realy enjoy the depth of knowledge of some of our posters. The trouble sometimes is seperating the wheat from the chaff. Anyway to the porpose of this posting.

Bergevin has been dealt a hand. He cannot go back and undo the Gomez signing nor reverse the Kaberle trade. What he can do is influence the future. He has a responsibility to put the best possible team on the ice in September and in each following September. His short term and long term goals must mesh. He does the best he can with what tools he has at his disposal. What I am trying to say is maybe Kaberle will be his 4th best defenseman, this year, maybe Gomez will be his 7th or 8th best forward. He can't let the fact their salaries aren't commensurate with their talent influence the team he puts on the ice. Sure he can look for outs via trade, demotion or buy-out, but I don't see teams lining up to solve his problems for him.
I don't see where cap-space will come into play this year, whether it's incoming salary via trades or free agency. He has to put his best 23 players on the ice on a nightly basis even if it's is Gomez on the fourth line if he is the best fourth line option they have. Bergevin and team are also responsible for developing and communicating a team strategy, the concept under which the team will play.

Terrien simply manages the assests the GM team gives him. He implements the predetermined team strategy and ensures the players comply with with the team concept. What will decide his sucess is how well he carries out the team plan. He must decide when to use the carrot and when to use the stick. He will allot ice time and use line assignments to ensure player compliance to the team's strategy.

What it boils down to is if the team is to suceed everyone needs to know and sucessfully carry out their responsibilities. Everybody must suceed in thier individual roles for the team to suceed.

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06-19-2012, 07:26 AM
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Kriss E
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I have stated a few times that people shouldnt be surprised to see Gomez and Kaberle back next year.
People are just assuming they'll be gone, or at least Gomez, but there's no point in burying the guy if it means giving Blunden a spot. We're better off keeping him and hoping he turns it around.
Now if it's to make room for a Parise or Semin, then it's different.

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06-19-2012, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I have stated a few times that people shouldnt be surprised to see Gomez and Kaberle back next year.
People are just assuming they'll be gone, or at least Gomez, but there's no point in burying the guy if it means giving Blunden a spot. We're better off keeping him and hoping he turns it around.
Now if it's to make room for a Parise or Semin, then it's different.

The bad part about it is that Blunden is actually more usefull as a hockey player than Gomez at this point. It's gotten that bad for this guy.
Gomez had most of his starts in the offensive zone to get him going, and he still only had 11 points, and was -9!

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06-19-2012, 08:30 AM
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Gomez on the fourth line is useless and actually a bad thing. I'd prefer to have a player who is more assigned to that role. You can't let things go by and let Gomez eat your cap space even if it isn't a factor right at the moment.

But then again, depending on the CBA agreement, I can see Bergevin trying to improve Gomez's value by giving him another shot and trying to trade him to a team who needs to reach the floor.

As for Kaberle, I'm ready to give him another chance. He wasn't as bad as people think, but he can be better for sure.

I like what I'm seeing from this organization.

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06-19-2012, 08:52 AM
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Gabe84
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I really have a hard time believing Gomez will get another chance. It could happen, and I wouldn't be "mad", but I hope this saga is over.

If he was to stay, it's hard to picture him anywhere but on the wings, maybe on the third line. Gomez can still play hockey. He's not a defensive stalwart, and he has lost quite a few steps in the offensive department, but he still showed some good things last year in my opinion. When he came back from his injury, he played decently and even had a few very good games.

If he can stay healthy and if he's given a reduced role, I could see him be a serviceable 3rd line winger with some PP time. His speed and his ability to gain the zone are good, his biggest flaws are his shot and his tendency to turn the puck over if pressured or if the obvious play isn't available. Once he gains the zone, he often tries to get rid of the puck too quickly.

It's probably too late to teach this old dog some new tricks, and his current salary is brutal. My guess is that Bergevin will wait out until the new CBA is signed to decide what to do with Gomez.

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06-19-2012, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Gabe84 View Post
I really have a hard time believing Gomez will get another chance. It could happen, and I wouldn't be "mad", but I hope this saga is over.

If he was to stay, it's hard to picture him anywhere but on the wings, maybe on the third line. Gomez can still play hockey. He's not a defensive stalwart, and he has lost quite a few steps in the offensive department, but he still showed some good things last year in my opinion. When he came back from his injury, he played decently and even had a few very good games.

If he can stay healthy and if he's given a reduced role, I could see him be a serviceable 3rd line winger with some PP time. His speed and his ability to gain the zone are good, his biggest flaws are his shot and his tendency to turn the puck over if pressured or if the obvious play isn't available. Once he gains the zone, he often tries to get rid of the puck too quickly.

It's probably too late to teach this old dog some new tricks, and his current salary is brutal. My guess is that Bergevin will wait out until the new CBA is signed to decide what to do with Gomez.
You can't really wait until the CBA to decide on Gomez. That's 7.35 mil of cap space you can't spend elswhere if you are considering keeping him on the roster.

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06-19-2012, 09:06 AM
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Blind Gardien
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That's why I'd just go and spend whatever money I could on the best players this July 1st. You have the 10% cap cushion in the summer. If you can actually get a Parise or Suter, spend the money. Don't be shy, and don't let the presence of Gomez, Kaberle, Bourque handcuff you in the attempts to ice the best lineup of players possible.

But the practical reality is that it's not so easy to get the best players even if you want them, and even if you offer them the most money, not when you're the 28th place team in the highest income tax bracket, etc. So yeah, maybe it all goes for naught and you do end up keeping Gomez, Kaberle, Bourque around.

All presuming that Mr. Molson is willing to spend the money to begin with, and willing to spend it on players who are deep-sixed to Hamilton/Switzerland/wherever in the event that you do manage to sign better players and still have to do some New Jersey-like tricks on cap compliance day. We as fans tend to make rather liberal presumptions on that side of things.

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06-19-2012, 09:11 AM
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Gabe84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You can't really wait until the CBA to decide on Gomez. That's 7.35 mil of cap space you can't spend elswhere if you are considering keeping him on the roster.
$25M in cap space, 10% cushion, there's no way we would run out of cap space before the CBA is signed. There's no need to deal with RFAs now. So unless Bergevin starts signing guys like Allen to $10M contracts or some stupid **** like that, we'll be fine, even if we end up signing a big name UFA and a bunch of other guys.

Teams will almost certainly get a window to buy-out players once the CBA is signed. Then you take care of restricted free agents, and voila, your team is set.

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06-19-2012, 09:13 AM
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Blind Gardien
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You can't really wait until the CBA to decide on Gomez. That's 7.35 mil of cap space you can't spend elswhere if you are considering keeping him on the roster.
But then you have to buy him out in the next 10 days. (I really don't think you're going to find a trade).

Otherwise, he's on our cap/roster until after the next CBA. Hopefully a CBA that rolls back the player percentage, and hence the salary cap, and hence gives teams a new cap compliance buyout opportunity accordingly.

If the team isn't going to buy him out, and it looks like they aren't, then yeah you have to wait until the CBA. In addition to the hail mary hope of a compliance buyout, there is also the possibility that there's a work stoppage that zaps all or part of the season anyway. That's $$$ saved on player salaries right there. Better than a buyout, if you can burn a year of player salary without paying him, or even half a year. He'll only have 1 year left on the contract after this coming year. That much easier to dispose of. I'd say waiting until the CBA is resolved is basically the safest course of action.

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06-19-2012, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Gabe84 View Post
$25M in cap space, 10% cushion, there's no way we would run out of cap space before the CBA is signed. There's no need to deal with RFAs now. So unless Bergevin starts signing guys like Allen to $10M contracts or some stupid **** like that, we'll be fine, even if we end up signing a big name UFA and a bunch of other guys.

Teams will almost certainly get a window to buy-out players once the CBA is signed. Then you take care of restricted free agents, and voila, your team is set.
Do you mean OUR RFA's or other team's RFA's ?

If it's OURS, it's kind of urgent. Habs MUST not take a risk to loose Price.

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06-19-2012, 12:00 PM
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The bad part about it is that Blunden is actually more usefull as a hockey player than Gomez at this point. It's gotten that bad for this guy.
Gomez had most of his starts in the offensive zone to get him going, and he still only had 11 points, and was -9!
Still wouldn't pick Blunden over Gomez, unless it's to play with White and Staubitz, then it would make no sense to do that.
If you're only going to look at what Gomez did last year, you won't find a reason why to keep him.

But the point isnt about how he did. It's that there may not be a reason to bury him. I'd much rather give him a try if nobody is signed off open market, then just wind up with the presence of a Blunden, who you know won't give you much.
If Gomez still sucks, you can send him down whenever.

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06-19-2012, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabe84 View Post
$25M in cap space, 10% cushion, there's no way we would run out of cap space before the CBA is signed. There's no need to deal with RFAs now. So unless Bergevin starts signing guys like Allen to $10M contracts or some stupid **** like that, we'll be fine, even if we end up signing a big name UFA and a bunch of other guys.

Teams will almost certainly get a window to buy-out players once the CBA is signed. Then you take care of restricted free agents, and voila, your team is set.
The 10% cushion is great, but you can't go 10% over and then invite Gomez to camp giving him a shot at winning a spot on the team because if you then have to turn around and dump , say $5 mil because you spent up to 75 mil, it opens up a big can of worms.

I don't think you want to sit on your RFA's either, get them signed ASAP, that way you have a clear idea who you can sign or trade for in the next month.

If you go spend 8-10 mil on a #3-4 d-man, 2nd liner winger and #4 center, then you have no cap room for Gomez.

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06-19-2012, 12:10 PM
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Gabe84
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Do you mean OUR RFA's or other team's RFA's ?

If it's OURS, it's kind of urgent. Habs MUST not take a risk to loose Price.
I meant ours, and I don't think it's urgent. The Canadiens won't lose either Price or Subban regardless. Any offer sheet will be matched--if we stay in the realm of possibilities, meaning we don't go into the "ifs" of a team signing them to an outrageous amount--and Price and Subban, I'm sure, completely understand the situation considering the new CBA coming up.

These are professional athletes we're talking about. I'm sure Bergevin sat down with them, and explained to them why it's not a good idea to negotiate with the new agreement looming in the horizon.

I don't see the urgency at all.

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06-19-2012, 12:16 PM
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But then you have to buy him out in the next 10 days. (I really don't think you're going to find a trade).

Otherwise, he's on our cap/roster until after the next CBA. Hopefully a CBA that rolls back the player percentage, and hence the salary cap, and hence gives teams a new cap compliance buyout opportunity accordingly.

If the team isn't going to buy him out, and it looks like they aren't, then yeah you have to wait until the CBA. In addition to the hail mary hope of a compliance buyout, there is also the possibility that there's a work stoppage that zaps all or part of the season anyway. That's $$$ saved on player salaries right there. Better than a buyout, if you can burn a year of player salary without paying him, or even half a year. He'll only have 1 year left on the contract after this coming year. That much easier to dispose of. I'd say waiting until the CBA is resolved is basically the safest course of action.
The point I'm making is not that they have to make a roster move but they have to make a call at the GM level that they either waive or buy him out with no cap hit if the new CBA allows it.

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06-19-2012, 12:42 PM
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The point I'm making is not that they have to make a roster move but they have to make a call at the GM level that they either waive or buy him out with no cap hit if the new CBA allows it.
Well, I think they have to do the math, anyway, and make sure they know Mr. Molson's position with regards to the money involved.

But there's really no rush to make any final decisions. There aren't *that* many options, and it's not rocket science. Once the specifics of the options are known, it won't be hard to make the decision when the time comes.

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06-19-2012, 05:43 PM
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If nothing could be done about Gomez, I also think it would be worth seeing if he could turn it all around and be one of those "biggest career comeback" stories. The problem is that I don't know where he would fit. Don't want to move any of the centers and yeah, I think it's useless to have him on the 4th line. If gomez is going to be successful, it's going to be with guys who can play, who can read him and turn those passes into goals. It's gotten so bad though, that the booing he would endure would make Breezer's treatment look like the awarding of the Molson Cup. If he steps on the ice at the BC, he's going to get ripped mercilessly until and only if he does something ridiculously good. Again, I don't see him doing that from wing and without bumping someone out. It would be between him and bourque. Oddly enough, I think that he actually might be a decent linemate for Bourque IF the latter regains his supposed speed and shot.

Will be interesting to see what transpires.

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06-19-2012, 06:22 PM
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I have stated a few times that people shouldnt be surprised to see Gomez and Kaberle back next year.
People are just assuming they'll be gone, or at least Gomez, but there's no point in burying the guy if it means giving Blunden a spot. We're better off keeping him and hoping he turns it around.
Now if it's to make room for a Parise or Semin, then it's different.
I agree with you. People will be surprised. We got a new coaching staff and all. We're not contenders and it really depends on what we'd do with the cash. Bergevin may just go status quo here.

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06-19-2012, 06:48 PM
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I have stated a few times that people shouldnt be surprised to see Gomez and Kaberle back next year.
People are just assuming they'll be gone, or at least Gomez, but there's no point in burying the guy if it means giving Blunden a spot. We're better off keeping him and hoping he turns it around.
Now if it's to make room for a Parise or Semin, then it's different.
If Gomez on this team means Gomez getting soft matchups in hopes he produces while Eller and Plekanec are constantly forced to play against stars pinned in their own zone, then I don't want Gomez on this team for free.

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06-19-2012, 06:54 PM
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If Gomez on this team means Gomez getting soft matchups in hopes he produces while Eller and Plekanec are constantly forced to play against stars pinned in their own zone, then I don't want Gomez on this team for free.
So you wouldn't want Desharnais on this team for free either?

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06-19-2012, 07:19 PM
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Bergevin has been dealt a hand. He cannot go back and undo the Gomez signing nor reverse the Kaberle trade. What he can do is influence the future. He has a responsibility to put the best possible team on the ice in September and in each following September. His short term and long term goals must mesh. He does the best he can with what tools he has at his disposal. What I am trying to say is maybe Kaberle will be his 4th best defenseman, this year, maybe Gomez will be his 7th or 8th best forward. He can't let the fact their salaries aren't commensurate with their talent influence the team he puts on the ice. Sure he can look for outs via trade, demotion or buy-out, but I don't see teams lining up to solve his problems for him.
I don't see where cap-space will come into play this year, whether it's incoming salary via trades or free agency. He has to put his best 23 players on the ice on a nightly basis even if it's is Gomez on the fourth line if he is the best fourth line option they have. Bergevin and team are also responsible for developing and communicating a team strategy, the concept under which the team will play.

Terrien simply manages the assests the GM team gives him. He implements the predetermined team strategy and ensures the players comply with with the team concept. What will decide his sucess is how well he carries out the team plan. He must decide when to use the carrot and when to use the stick. He will allot ice time and use line assignments to ensure player compliance to the team's strategy.

What it boils down to is if the team is to suceed everyone needs to know and sucessfully carry out their responsibilities. Everybody must suceed in thier individual roles for the team to suceed.
What it boils down to, though, is that when you have an unsuccessful team that just pretty much spent the cap maximum, you have to target areas of weakness if you're hoping to improve your team year to year by addressing them. What that means, unfortunately, is that there is somewhat of an evaluation of output/impact vs. cost at some level.

Mind you, that all means relatively little without the element ("context") of "opportunity cost". What "could" have been done with the the right funds and the right (potentially/likely available) player at the right time? Discussion usually dissolves into disputes of the minutia of specific "proposals", but in a cap environment an incumbent will be measured on some level vs. a potential replacement based on that same notion of output/"impact" vs. cost (and projections into the future thereof) - so extreme outliers like Gomez (and/or Kaberle, depending on one's opinion) make "obvious" targets for replacement, "unfortunately".

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06-19-2012, 08:37 PM
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If Gomez on this team means Gomez getting soft matchups in hopes he produces while Eller and Plekanec are constantly forced to play against stars pinned in their own zone, then I don't want Gomez on this team for free.
But I think that's thinking too far ahead.
I'm simply talking about preparing our roster. Before any games are played, we won't know how Plekanec/DD/Eller/Gomez will look.

My point was that many people seem to think Gomez will be gone during the summer and his cash will be used for free agents, but that is far from being a layed out plan.
If no big name free agents are signed, and we don't need extra cap space, which is as good a reality (if not an even greater one) as us signing someone, then I don't think Gomez is going anywhere.
Camp will come along with exhibition games. If Gomez shows absolutely nothing, he could start the year as a healthy scratch, but the point remains he'll still be a Habs.
If he does well, then there's nothing to whine about.

So, again, my point was only to say Gomez could very well start the year here again. It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

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06-19-2012, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
But I think that's thinking too far ahead.
I'm simply talking about preparing our roster. Before any games are played, we won't know how Plekanec/DD/Eller/Gomez will look.

My point was that many people seem to think Gomez will be gone during the summer and his cash will be used for free agents, but that is far from being a layed out plan.
If no big name free agents are signed, and we don't need extra cap space, which is as good a reality (if not an even greater one) as us signing someone, then I don't think Gomez is going anywhere.

Camp will come along with exhibition games. If Gomez shows absolutely nothing, he could start the year as a healthy scratch, but the point remains he'll still be a Habs.
If he does well, then there's nothing to whine about.

So, again, my point was only to say Gomez could very well start the year here again. It wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Exactly. Some people seem to forget that it's not because you have tons of cap space that you will find a way to spend it. There's only so many big name UFA's.

Having Gomez on the salary chart on July 1st doesn't handcuff the team in any ways. And in the end, the presence of Gomez on the roster will most likely be known late in the summer.

And let me reiterate: many of you may not like Gomez, but contract aside, he's not as bad a player as you may think. He may be worth far from 7 millions, but he's still more talented and useful than most other 3rd/4th line options, and nothing indicates he's a bad presence in the locker room.

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06-19-2012, 11:08 PM
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That's why I'd just go and spend whatever money I could on the best players this July 1st. You have the 10% cap cushion in the summer. If you can actually get a Parise or Suter, spend the money. Don't be shy, and don't let the presence of Gomez, Kaberle, Bourque handcuff you in the attempts to ice the best lineup of players possible.

But the practical reality is that it's not so easy to get the best players even if you want them, and even if you offer them the most money, not when you're the 28th place team in the highest income tax bracket, etc. So yeah, maybe it all goes for naught and you do end up keeping Gomez, Kaberle, Bourque around.

All presuming that Mr. Molson is willing to spend the money to begin with, and willing to spend it on players who are deep-sixed to Hamilton/Switzerland/wherever in the event that you do manage to sign better players and still have to do some New Jersey-like tricks on cap compliance day. We as fans tend to make rather liberal presumptions on that side of things.
The US election could change the fact that Montreal is high in the tax bracket, real quick. Could be low, I'm sure anyone signing this year will have this in their mind.

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06-20-2012, 08:52 PM
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That's why I'd just go and spend whatever money I could on the best players this July 1st. You have the 10% cap cushion in the summer. If you can actually get a Parise or Suter, spend the money. Don't be shy, and don't let the presence of Gomez, Kaberle, Bourque handcuff you in the attempts to ice the best lineup of players possible.

But the practical reality is that it's not so easy to get the best players even if you want them, and even if you offer them the most money, not when you're the 28th place team in the highest income tax bracket, etc. So yeah, maybe it all goes for naught and you do end up keeping Gomez, Kaberle, Bourque around.

All presuming that Mr. Molson is willing to spend the money to begin with, and willing to spend it on players who are deep-sixed to Hamilton/Switzerland/wherever in the event that you do manage to sign better players and still have to do some New Jersey-like tricks on cap compliance day. We as fans tend to make rather liberal presumptions on that side of things.
dont spend a dime on top ufa`s
trust me we will get smoked like the cammy ,gio spacek crap we had to deal with
even cole as good as played folks we have the third pick for petes sake
we arent a suter or parise away from anything
do nothing,give the kids a shot
if you to tinker in free agency, short term bandaid moves are fine with me

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06-21-2012, 06:58 AM
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vCash: 500
Gomez will not be bought out but I believe he will be sent to Europe or the minors
If we buy him out we will still have a big cap hit from it:

Buyout Details
SEASON SALARY CAP HIT BUYOUT SAVINGS BUYOUT CAP HIT
2012-13 $5,500,000 $7,357,143 $1,666,667 $3,833,333 $3,523,810
2013-14 $4,500,000 $7,357,143 $1,666,667 $2,833,333 $4,523,810
2014-15 $0 $0 $1,666,667 -$1,666,667 $1,666,667
2015-16 $0 $0 $1,666,667 -$1,666,667 $1,666,667

TEXT CAP HIT BREAKDOWN (for copying and pasting)

Scott Gomez buyout from CapGeek.com

◦2012-13: $3,523,810
◦2013-14: $4,523,810
◦2014-15: $1,666,667
◦2015-16: $1,666,667

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