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Old
06-16-2012, 08:13 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by KingLB View Post
If your not getting better/moving forward you are getting worse/falling back. Stoll is a classic example of a player getting lots of fluff for a decent yet overrated playoff run. I mean he was outscored by each of his linemates, hell even Greene outscored him. While he has certain aspects of him game that are nice, outside of the faceoffs they can all be replicated. Especially by Lewis. (who had a better playoff imo with half the hype)
With the Kings now rolling 2 scoring lines, Stoll suddenly becomes the perfect 3rd line C for the team. He doesn't need to score goals, he just needs to pk, take big faceoffs, take defensive assignments off the top guys, and occasionally chip in points.

If you have a 3rd line of Gagne-Stoll-Lewis, you could use it as a shutdown-only line, freeing up the top 2 lines completely

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06-16-2012, 08:14 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Puck U View Post
well ... you'd be Wrong ... but hey
2012 Stoll=2011 Joel Ward

Tell me one aspect of his game (outside faceoffs) that can't be easily replicated by someone else on the team....hell someone else in the bottom six...

His "booming shot"?....his untimely penalties? His massive offensive production? His goalie interference penalties?

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Originally Posted by sw1tch View Post
With the Kings now rolling 2 scoring lines, Stoll suddenly becomes the perfect 3rd line C for the team. He doesn't need to score goals, he just needs to pk, take big faceoffs, take defensive assignments off the top guys, and occasionally chip in points.

If you have a 3rd line of Gagne-Stoll-Lewis, you could use it as a shutdown-only line, freeing up the top 2 lines completely
I'll add this on to my previous post....so again of the 4 things you listed how can none of that be replicated? Even more so since A. he doesn't take defensive assignments, if anything Kopi/Richards shelter Stoll from playing against tough match-ups which he likely couldn't handle. And B. he didn't even rarely chip in points...if we don't count empty netters, he had 3 pts in 20 games....terrible.

Again nice player...but completely overrated playoffs.


Last edited by KingLB: 06-16-2012 at 08:20 PM.
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06-17-2012, 04:22 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by KingLB View Post
2012 Stoll=2011 Joel Ward

Tell me one aspect of his game (outside faceoffs) that can't be easily replicated by someone else on the team....hell someone else in the bottom six...

His "booming shot"?....his untimely penalties? His massive offensive production? His goalie interference penalties?



I'll add this on to my previous post....so again of the 4 things you listed how can none of that be replicated? Even more so since A. he doesn't take defensive assignments, if anything Kopi/Richards shelter Stoll from playing against tough match-ups which he likely couldn't handle. And B. he didn't even rarely chip in points...if we don't count empty netters, he had 3 pts in 20 games....terrible.

Again nice player...but completely overrated playoffs.
If that were true someone from Manchester would have replace Stoll by now.

Especially after the awful reg season Stoll had. For a puck possession team winning faceoff's is HUGE.

There was a reason LOKI was on the bench or playing fourth line minutes with Sutter as the coach.

Some nights during the cup run Stoll was the best center on the ice.

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06-17-2012, 04:30 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingLB View Post
2012 Stoll=2011 Joel Ward

Tell me one aspect of his game (outside faceoffs) that can't be easily replicated by someone else on the team....hell someone else in the bottom six...

His "booming shot"?....his untimely penalties? His massive offensive production? His goalie interference penalties?



I'll add this on to my previous post....so again of the 4 things you listed how can none of that be replicated? Even more so since A. he doesn't take defensive assignments, if anything Kopi/Richards shelter Stoll from playing against tough match-ups which he likely couldn't handle. And B. he didn't even rarely chip in points...if we don't count empty netters, he had 3 pts in 20 games....terrible.

Again nice player...but completely overrated playoffs.
AGREED!!

The guy is so overrated it is ridiculous, Let someone else pay that guy. We have more then enugh centers here there is absoluteley no need for him.

The guys who won the Stanley cup ar our best players, lets not exagerrate the performances of our worst players, simply because we won.

Stick a fork in Stoll hes done. Makes zero sense to keep that guy when we have cheap young replacements and really good players to sign...

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06-17-2012, 12:56 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by jonrazor12 View Post
I could see a 2 year deal worth 7.5 to 8 mil

But that's only if we miss out on parise


Hope you're joking.

Maximum 2M per year!

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06-17-2012, 07:09 PM
  #81
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2 minutes for Excessive Butter.

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06-17-2012, 07:31 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Puck U View Post
well ... you'd be Wrong ... but hey

also ... to anyone breaking up Bro-pitar ... what are you stupid ? seriously ... they thrive off of each other and have great chemistry, they stay together.

IF ... and it's a BIG IF we land Zach ... he played RW when the devils used him and Kovalchuk together didn't they, or did Ilya move over ? so ...

Brown - Kopitar - Parise
Gagne - Richards - Carter
Penner - Stoll - Williams
King - Lewis - Clifford
EXTRAs - Nolan, Richardson

I think Stoll & Penner both takes discounts and stay, you let Fraser walk unless he comes cheap, Lewis can do what Fraser did. Richardson maybe gets traded or waived ?

Scuderi - Doughty
Mitchell - Voynov
Greene - Martinez
EXTRAs - Drewiskie, Hickey

Drewiskie maybe gets traded or waived ?

QUICK / Bernier

... looks like another DEEP Repeat Run worthy lineup to me
That's somewhere pretty close to my thinking. Parise will play the top line of course. Only change I would make is Penner swapping with Gagne. I don't want to break that "finally got Penns to play" chemistry thing going on the 2nd line. Also, if Gagne goes down again, I'd rather disrupt the 3rd line than the 2nd line.

Plus Richardson probably goes down to the AHL and Nolan will be the spare forward. Although...Richardson is a bit more versatile...

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06-17-2012, 08:10 PM
  #83
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Unfortunately neither Stoll nor Penner is eligible for performance bonuses. They need short-term contracts with incentives.

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06-19-2012, 02:13 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by jonrazor12 View Post
I could see a 2 year deal worth 7.5 to 8 mil

But that's only if we miss out on parise

You're kidding....right?

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06-19-2012, 02:17 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Puck U View Post
well ... you'd be Wrong ... but hey

also ... to anyone breaking up Bro-pitar ... what are you stupid ? seriously ... they thrive off of each other and have great chemistry, they stay together.

IF ... and it's a BIG IF we land Zach ... he played RW when the devils used him and Kovalchuk together didn't they, or did Ilya move over ? so ...

Brown - Kopitar - Parise
Gagne - Richards - Carter
Penner - Stoll - Williams
King - Lewis - Clifford
EXTRAs - Nolan, Richardson

I think Stoll & Penner both takes discounts and stay, you let Fraser walk unless he comes cheap, Lewis can do what Fraser did. Richardson maybe gets traded or waived ?

Scuderi - Doughty
Mitchell - Voynov
Greene - Martinez
EXTRAs - Drewiskie, Hickey

Drewiskie maybe gets traded or waived ?

QUICK / Bernier

... looks like another DEEP Repeat Run worthy lineup to me

Couple of things. How much cheaper can Fraser get and how you gonna work all this into the Salary Cap?


Last edited by Crown Royal: 06-19-2012 at 02:26 PM.
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06-19-2012, 02:58 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by stonedhenge View Post
I'd say Penner gets 2y/7M and Stoll 2y/6M.
Personally, I'd pass on Penner at that price and I'm not sure I'd be interest in paying anymore than 2yr/5M for Stoll, and I like Stoll a lot!

IMHO, Penner should be a one yr deal for somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.5M

Keep in mind that Dwight King is similar in size, put up comparable numbers in the regular season and playoffs and was a +3 vs Penner who was -7 during the regular season and King made less than 600K. Would you offer King 2y/7M?

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06-19-2012, 03:08 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
That's somewhere pretty close to my thinking. Parise will play the top line of course. Only change I would make is Penner swapping with Gagne. I don't want to break that "finally got Penns to play" chemistry thing going on the 2nd line. Also, if Gagne goes down again, I'd rather disrupt the 3rd line than the 2nd line.

Plus Richardson probably goes down to the AHL and Nolan will be the spare forward. Although...Richardson is a bit more versatile...
He finally started playing on the third line and earned a spot on the 2nd. So him on the 3rd could work. Godo to have dpeth in case of injuries, which with Gagne and Williams is likely. (williams lately not so much)

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06-19-2012, 03:16 PM
  #88
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if penner resigns, id say let the pancake throwing tradition begin.

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06-19-2012, 03:50 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crown Royal View Post
Couple of things. How much cheaper can Fraser get and how you gonna work all this into the Salary Cap?
Colin Fraser IS Cheap NOW ... but is also a UFA and I expect him to be looking for a nice raise, don't you ? If he asks for anything more than say $1.5 mil per year, I say Lewis can handle Fraser's role without missing a beat at half that salary, was the point I was making.

And as far as working it all into the Salary Cap ... next years CAP = $70.3-million ?, with a really ambitious GM could spend $77.3-million or so before having to get under the eventual cap on the final day of training camp, though no one KNOWS yet what it might actually be once a new CBA is in place, however ...

Playing with CapGeek I come up with this = http://www.capgeek.com/cap-calculato...er.php?id=7081 = Gives me that 25 man team I listed @ $69,649,602

... so it CAN work, Penner & Stoll both sign for less than they make now, leaves about $7.5 mil cap to get Parise
in the end some guys may have to be cut, waived, traded ... like Richardson, Drewiske and ? We will see, I'm obviously not TOO worried about it, as Dean I'm sure has HIS numbers in place and will make something work one way or another.


Last edited by Puck U: 06-19-2012 at 03:56 PM.
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06-19-2012, 04:49 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Puck U View Post
well ... you'd be Wrong ... but hey

also ... to anyone breaking up Bro-pitar ... what are you stupid ? seriously ... they thrive off of each other and have great chemistry, they stay together.

IF ... and it's a BIG IF we land Zach ... he played RW when the devils used him and Kovalchuk together didn't they, or did Ilya move over ? so ...

Brown - Kopitar - Parise
Gagne - Richards - Carter
Penner - Stoll - Williams
King - Lewis - Clifford
EXTRAs - Nolan, Richardson

I think Stoll & Penner both takes discounts and stay, you let Fraser walk unless he comes cheap, Lewis can do what Fraser did. Richardson maybe gets traded or waived ?

Scuderi - Doughty
Mitchell - Voynov
Greene - Martinez
EXTRAs - Drewiskie, Hickey

Drewiskie maybe gets traded or waived ?

QUICK / Bernier

... looks like another DEEP Repeat Run worthy lineup to me
Under your scenario, we would have good enough wings on our roster to have Penner and Williams on the third line and King on the 4th line.

Why would we not move Carter back to center? Plenty of Wings on this roster now, and especcially in your scenario. What is the fascination with crowbaring a guy who has played center his entire career into the wing position?

The only reason that he is playing there now is because when we acquired him, King and Nolan only had a few games under there belt, Gagne was hurt, and Penner was playing horrible.

Now all four of those guys are more then vaible options in our top 6 (Nolan maybe maxes out as a 3rd liner).

Situation has completeley changed now, time for Carter to go back to center. And its a no-brainer if the kings were to add Parise as well.

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06-19-2012, 05:10 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Puck U View Post
Colin Fraser IS Cheap NOW ... but is also a UFA and I expect him to be looking for a nice raise, don't you ? If he asks for anything more than say $1.5 mil per year, I say Lewis can handle Fraser's role without missing a beat at half that salary, was the point I was making.

And as far as working it all into the Salary Cap ... next years CAP = $70.3-million ?, with a really ambitious GM could spend $77.3-million or so before having to get under the eventual cap on the final day of training camp, though no one KNOWS yet what it might actually be once a new CBA is in place, however ...

Playing with CapGeek I come up with this = http://www.capgeek.com/cap-calculato...er.php?id=7081 = Gives me that 25 man team I listed @ $69,649,602

... so it CAN work, Penner & Stoll both sign for less than they make now, leaves about $7.5 mil cap to get Parise
in the end some guys may have to be cut, waived, traded ... like Richardson, Drewiske and ? We will see, I'm obviously not TOO worried about it, as Dean I'm sure has HIS numbers in place and will make something work one way or another.
The cap for next year has yet to be set officially and the 70.3M number will more than likely go down after CBA has been negotiated.

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06-19-2012, 06:02 PM
  #92
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There is no scenario I can see in which Dean makes Parise the most payed player on the team. If Parise wants to join the kings he will have to take less than what Doughty and Kopitar are making.

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06-19-2012, 06:39 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Rusty Batch View Post
Under your scenario, we would have good enough wings on our roster to have Penner and Williams on the third line and King on the 4th line.

Why would we not move Carter back to center? Plenty of Wings on this roster now, and especcially in your scenario. What is the fascination with crowbaring a guy who has played center his entire career into the wing position?

The only reason that he is playing there now is because when we acquired him, King and Nolan only had a few games under there belt, Gagne was hurt, and Penner was playing horrible.

Now all four of those guys are more then vaible options in our top 6 (Nolan maybe maxes out as a 3rd liner).

Situation has completeley changed now, time for Carter to go back to center. And its a no-brainer if the kings were to add Parise as well.

Despite all the warnings from Flyer fans regarding how Richards and Carter just can't play together it worked out just fine.

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06-19-2012, 07:18 PM
  #94
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I'm for bringing back Penner, Stoll and Fraser or signing Parise or Whitney for the left wing. The Kings can't rely on Gagne all season and after Gagne and Brown, the left wing is pretty thin. King and Nolan are nice but I wouldn't count on them to play top 6 minutes.

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06-19-2012, 07:59 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by SCARFACE909 View Post
The cap for next year has yet to be set officially and the 70.3M number will more than likely go down after CBA has been negotiated.
Every players salary (maybe just cap hit) will be rolled back by whatever percentage the cap is decreased by, much like post lockout.

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06-19-2012, 08:10 PM
  #96
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Those of you who complain about Stoll misjudge his role on the team and his importance to the franchise. Those of you who complain about his play or actions on the ice misjudge his purpose - he is tasked with being a tough defensive forward with speed who creates havoc in the opponents structure and game plan. That entails "dumb" penalties while pushing opponents off their game. His shot and scoring is just something else for their D and goalie to worry about - it's not his main purpose or skill.

I'm just stunned by how much, and how fast, some of us dismiss these intangibles the same week we celebrate our Championship and want to throw away the very thing (camaraderie and battle for each other) that got us the Cup. Stoll and Greene are prime catalysts that changed our locker room over the past three years.

Penner was a beneficiary of that - as were the younger players. Now, we're going to throw that away because of what Penner succeeded at overcoming? So another team can win with him? When all these guys are ready to fight and bleed for each other and we want to split that up? What kind of franchise do we want?

Toronto has been rolling "the best player for the position" and changing their roster over and over, year after year - since 1942. The Wings have had the toughest lineup for a rookie or two year player to crack forever. That's why Detroit are consistently at the top and tough to play against.

Lombardi's not going to let Stoll go unless Stoll asks to leave for career or personal reasons. I suspect the same is true of Penner and Fraser.

Said it before and I'll keep saying it until proven wrong - this team, these players have earned the right to stay together and go for another Cup. The kids not currently on the roster can push their way in when they can - just like Voynov, Martinez, King and Nolan did.
Thank God someone in this thread has their head screwed on right.

I swear some fans will always be stuck in their 'Dream team' mentality with stats as their primary focus; what is downright sad is that this is after our team JUST WON THE CUP.

You'd think that they learned what it takes to win that kind of trophy. Apparently that's asking too much.

PARISE OR BUST! STOLL SUCKS! TRADE GREEN! WOOHOO!

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06-19-2012, 09:28 PM
  #97
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Despite all the warnings from Flyer fans regarding how Richards and Carter just can't play together it worked out just fine.
Not in my opinion. I mean sure our team had great success, but I didnt think Carter got enough good looks even strength. Carters goal scoring even strength was down, from his career numbersd as was his shots per game, and most of his good opportunities were self created. If we are going to "stack" our second line then I would expect better production even strength.

Even though that line was good for us, considering the talent on it, I thought it could have been much better. And if that is all we can expect from it then I would just assume split Carter and Richards up and have 3 good lines.

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06-19-2012, 09:31 PM
  #98
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Not in my opinion. I mean sure our team had great success, but I didnt think Carter got enough good looks even strength. Carters goal scoring even strength was down, from his career numbersd as was his shots per game, and most of his good opportunities were self created. If we are going to "stack" our second line then I would expect better production even strength.

Even though that line was good for us, considering the talent on it, I thought it could have been much better. And if that is all we can expect from it then I would just assume split Carter and Richards up and have 3 good lines.
Is that not what matters?

I get the sense that you like to disagree just for the sake of arguing.

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06-19-2012, 10:07 PM
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Is that not what matters?

I get the sense that you like to disagree just for the sake of arguing.
Just because our team won doesnt mean we can't improve upon it. Or should everyone on here agree that this team should make zero changes?


These are just my opinions, Im not disagreeing for the sake of it. I watched the games this year and during the playoffs and felt strongly about a few things.

in my opinion:

1.) Richards is a homerun threat, who generally goes for the big play, which often results in turnovers. He is not particularly good at holding onto the puck and finding someone in space. He also rareley passes the puck on odd man rushes. However He does create a lot of opportunities just by his great instincts and effort. I think Brown is a similar type of player.

2.) Carter would play well with other players who are more pass first, less turnover prone, and look for the simple pass. Carter doesn't need someone to make a special play in order for him to score, he just needs enough space to get a shot off. So players that can cycle would be a better fit for him.

3.) Brown and Richards would play phenomenal together and we have enough talent on our roster to still make 2 other very good lines. Both of them are cut from a similar ilk. They both wreak havoc, work hard and are homerun threat type players. I think they would naturally have good chemistry as they play the game very similarly.

4.) Stoll should not be resigned, we have too many centers on this roster to pay a guy like Stoll.

5.) If Carter is going to stay at wing then we should put him with Kopitar both of them would be dynamic together. And we should let Lokti play 3rd line Center, hes good, cheap and has more then paid his dues.

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06-19-2012, 10:42 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Rusty Batch View Post
Just because our team won doesnt mean we can't improve upon it. Or should everyone on here agree that this team should make zero changes?
Our "TEAM" as it were had only been together since POST TRADE DEADLINE ... and Gagne out hurt the majority of the year, so getting him back and having the whole team (and Coach) together for the entire season starting from training camp onward already IS AN IMPROVEMENT IMO.

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1.) Richards is a homerun threat, who generally goes for the big play, which often results in turnovers. He is not particularly good at holding onto the puck and finding someone in space. He also rarely passes the puck on odd man rushes. However He does create a lot of opportunities just by his great instincts and effort. I think Brown is a similar type of player.

3.) Brown and Richards would play phenomenal together and we have enough talent on our roster to still make 2 other very good lines. Both of them are cut from a similar ilk. They both wreak havoc, work hard and are homerun threat type players. I think they would naturally have good chemistry as they play the game very similarly.
Oh man ... this is exactly why YOU DON'T PLAY THEM TOGETHER, two guys who by YOUR words are puck hogs and turn over machines and you want to pair them up ? YIKES ! btw we tried that for awhile you may recall during the year and they SUCKED together, as would be expected, it wasn't until Brown was moved to the LEFT SIDE and paired with Kopitar that his game really began to take off ... just like it does EVERY TIME they are paired together, plus they LIKE playing together, so maybe we should just leave well enough alone here, and see if Brown becomes that 30 goal scorer again like the last time he was paired the majority of the year alongside Kopitar.

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Originally Posted by Rusty Batch View Post
2.) Carter would play well with other players who are more pass first, less turnover prone, and look for the simple pass. Carter doesn't need someone to make a special play in order for him to score, he just needs enough space to get a shot off. So players that can cycle would be a better fit for him.

4.) Stoll should not be resigned, we have too many centers on this roster to pay a guy like Stoll.

5.) If Carter is going to stay at wing then we should put him with Kopitar both of them would be dynamic together. And we should let Lokti play 3rd line Center, hes good, cheap and has more then paid his dues.
Carter and Richards were just fine together, and add in Gagne with them and there's a trio that will strike fear in most teams.

You undervalue Stoll, that's ok I guess as many around here do, but thankfully I don't think Lombardi does, if you think Loktionov can do what Stoll did, I don't know what games you watch, and how has he payed his due ? playing in the AHL a couple years ? please ... he's played a TOTAL of 95 games in the AHL scoring a total of 22 goals in that time ... how about be DOMINATE in the AHL, how about WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP in the AHL ... then we can talk. He's only just turned 22 and still has lots of development to work on IMO, if he was in the Detroit Wings organization, he'd still be down with the Griffins and we wouldn't even be talking about him.


Last edited by Puck U: 06-19-2012 at 11:21 PM.
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