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Old
06-19-2012, 06:41 PM
  #51
Novak Djokovic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Karlsson played softer minutes though (didn't play against top lines). Phillips/Cowen were getting the tougher minutes.

Definitely not worth 6.5m yet...but maybe it'll work out for them. Hoping that Subban signs for 4.5m for 3-4 years.
Wrong. If you watched the Sens play, Kuba and Karlsson was the top pair offensively AND defensively.

Phillips and Cowen didn't even play together for most part of the season. It was Cowen-Gonchar. Nice try though.

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06-19-2012, 06:43 PM
  #52
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Wrong. If you watched the Sens play, Kuba and Karlsson was the top pair offensively AND defensively.

Phillips and Cowen didn't even play together for most part of the season. It was Cowen-Gonchar. Nice try though.
The games I saw Karlsson and Kuba didn't play against top lines when Ottawa had the last change.

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Old
06-19-2012, 06:58 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
The games I saw Karlsson and Kuba didn't play against top lines when Ottawa had the last change.
true. Karlsson still has many defensive flaws. On the other hand he is golden offensively.

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Old
06-19-2012, 07:03 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
The games I saw Karlsson and Kuba didn't play against top lines when Ottawa had the last change.
You may think I'm biased, but I watched pretty much every single game. He played the most minutes on the team, and faced #1 lines regularly. He was also almost always on the ice in the last minute when Ottawa was defending a lead.

Just ask Joe Micheletti as to what he thinks of Karlsson's defensive game.

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06-19-2012, 07:05 PM
  #55
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Were looking at between 5-7 million contracts for Price, Subban and Patches. Hopefully we can get some hometown discounts.

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06-19-2012, 07:08 PM
  #56
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Just saw on the main board that Rob Zombie is going to direct a movie about the Broad Street Bullies.

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06-19-2012, 07:13 PM
  #57
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Just saw on the main board that Rob Zombie is going to direct a movie about the Broad Street Bullies.
They're not going to eat flesh and stuff, are they?

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Old
06-19-2012, 07:20 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Roke View Post
I was speaking in terms of quality/difficulty rather than quantity. Subban was hard-matched against the opposition's best and had a Ozone%( % of non-neutral even-strength faceoffs started in the offensive zone) of 46.3% of less than 50% while Karlsson had an Ozone% of 57.1%. That's a sizeable difference where one guy is carrying the load defensively and another guy is being put in a position to put up offensive numbers.

This is along the lines of the discussion in the Player Usage Chart thread. Karlsson's usage for Ottawa this past season was fairly similar to Erhoff in his last season in Vancouver though not as generous. Subban's usage was along the lines of defensemen like Shea Weber or Chara
Ottawa is a possession team unlike Nashville or Boston. Zone starts were high across the board. Only one defenseman had less 50% o-zone starts and that was Chris Phillips with 49.7%.

Ottawa had three defensemen at 57% so his zone starts were normal relative to the rest of the team.

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Old
06-19-2012, 07:23 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Serbian Power View Post
You may think I'm biased, but I watched pretty much every single game. He played the most minutes on the team, and faced #1 lines regularly. He was also almost always on the ice in the last minute when Ottawa was defending a lead.

Just ask Joe Micheletti as to what he thinks of Karlsson's defensive game.
I live in Ottawa...do you not think that I get (forced) to watch MANY of Ottawa's games?

As for Phillips/Cowen, they did play quite a bit together. Kuba/Karlsson were not the primary shutdown duo. They logged the most minutes however they did not primary face the toughest opposition. That's not to say that they ONLY played soft minutes. But Karlsson was not typically out there against the Kovalchuks/Ovechkins etc. (on top of the games I watched on TV I also went to see 5+ games live, he stepped off the ice nearly every time a star player stepped on).

Karlsson is a great hockey player, but there's a reason a lot of people don't believe that he deserves the Norris and not all of those people are as uneducated as you might think.

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06-19-2012, 07:26 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Were looking at between 5-7 million contracts for Price, Subban and Patches. Hopefully we can get some hometown discounts.
Wishful thinking:

Patches signs for Cole money (4-4.5m) for 3-4 years.
Subban will hopefully sign for 4.5m short term (2 years?).
Price I'm hoping 5.5m...But I'm expecting 6m for 3-4years.

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Old
06-19-2012, 07:42 PM
  #61
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They're not going to eat flesh and stuff, are they?
That... is an amazing idea

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06-19-2012, 07:59 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
But Karlsson was not typically out there against the Kovalchuks/Ovechkins etc. (on top of the games I watched on TV I also went to see 5+ games live, he stepped off the ice nearly every time a star player stepped on).
That's a nice fiction. Karlsson was put head to head against Ovechkin in every single game we played the Caps last year. He's the only one that can skate with him.

You seriously think he played all of his 25:19 per game, nearly 2 minutes more than the next closest d-man on our team, against sheltered competition? Paul Maclean definitely deserves the Jack Adams if he's that much of a coaching wizard.

His qualcomp was excellent, someone posted it in the thread on the trade board. Second on the team behind his D partner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Karlsson is a great hockey player, but there's a reason a lot of people don't believe that he deserves the Norris and not all of those people are as uneducated as you might think.
He probably won't win it. But that's no shame. You act like that should be held against him... It's a hell of an honour simply to be nominated for that trophy, and almost unheard of at his age.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roke View Post
Subban was hard-matched against the opposition's best and had a Ozone%( % of non-neutral even-strength faceoffs started in the offensive zone) of 46.3% of less than 50% while Karlsson had an Ozone% of 57.1%. That's a sizeable difference where one guy is carrying the load defensively and another guy is being put in a position to put up offensive numbers.
Our lowest defenseman for O-Zone starts was Phillips at just about 49%. All other d-men were above 50%. It's a by-product of the style of play of our team (except when we're playing yours, for some reason....)

I can understand why you guys aren't fans, you saw him in his 6 worst games of the season last year. Maybe the night life was getting to him... Thankfully he's getting married soon.


Last edited by The King of Town: 06-19-2012 at 08:07 PM.
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Old
06-19-2012, 08:21 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by The King of Town View Post
That's a nice fiction. Karlsson was put head to head against Ovechkin in every single game we played the Caps last year. He's the only one that can skate with him.
I've seen Cowen go up against Ovechkin (my example was more Kovalchuk in particular because it's one of the games that sticks in my head) many many times (same with Phillips though he showed signs of wear).

Quote:
Originally Posted by The King of Town View Post
You seriously think he played all of his 25:19 per game, nearly 2 minutes more than the next closest d-man on our team, against sheltered competition? Paul Maclean definitely deserves the Jack Adams if he's that much of a coaching wizard.
Obviously Karlsson logged alot of minutes with the sens top offensive lines. He's not going to be entirely sheltered from the superstars of the league...same as Spezza; however it is advantageous to put him in a situation where he won't get plugged in the defensive zone for his entire shift and those are the situations that Maclean tried to put him in....smart coaching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The King of Town View Post
His qualcomp was excellent, someone posted it in the thread on the trade board. Second on the team behind his D partner.
I'd love to see that and measure how accurate it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The King of Town View Post
He probably won't win it. But that's no shame. You act like that should be held against him... It's a hell of an honour simply to be nominated for that trophy, and almost unheard of at his age.
If you're going to get paid Norris-Calibre money, shouldn't you play Norris-Calibre hockey for a while?

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Old
06-19-2012, 08:22 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Immanuel View Post
Ottawa is a possession team unlike Nashville or Boston. Zone starts were high across the board. Only one defenseman had less 50% o-zone starts and that was Chris Phillips with 49.7%.

Ottawa had three defensemen at 57% so his zone starts were normal relative to the rest of the team.


Nashville sure, they were horrible possession-wise this year and managed to get by on the back of special teams and goaltending. Boston's a good possession team though - 6th in Fenwick% Close at 52.6% this year while Ottawa was 12th at 50.9%

The average Ozone% of Ottawa defenseman (assuming they didn't have any weird business like a guy playing forward and me not bothering to separate faceoffs of guys who played for other NHL teams, if there were any) was 53%. Karlsson's zone-starts were still sheltered compared to the defense corps as a whole.

He's a nice defenseman but he hasn't had to show how he handles tough defensive situations over the long haul. It's a decent contract for Ottawa and he still has room to grow.

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Old
06-19-2012, 08:45 PM
  #65
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The numbers on the matter actually support both sides of this debate. Karlsson was used as Ottawa's toughest competition unit. However his and Kuba's quality of competition metrics are far below the norm for a typical tough minutes pairing. They didn't hard match him against strong opponents like teams usually do with their best defensive pairing. Which makes sense, his talents are biased towards offense.

http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/5/30/top-defensive-pairings

Notice how Karlsson is off in the bottom right hand corner. He qualifies for a shutdown pairing but was probably the most lightly used of all such beasts in the NHL last year.

So he played tough minutes but not Chara, Weber, Bouwmester, Subban or Phaneuf tough minutes.


That said its a decent contract for Ottawa. Karlsson is a quality defenseman. I wouldn't worry too much about Subban's contract. Scoring totals always end up a factor in these things even if players are relatively equal in actual value (which I think Karlsson and Subban are, hardly anyone factors in Subban's ridiculous value as a top level penalty killer for example).


Last edited by Talks to Goalposts: 06-19-2012 at 08:56 PM.
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Old
06-19-2012, 10:24 PM
  #66
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That's a hell of a raise for Karlsson. The kid could play but that's a hell of a deal for him, well see if it hurts the Sens in the long run(cap wise)

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06-19-2012, 11:02 PM
  #67
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They're not going to eat flesh and stuff, are they?
Well it is the Flyers, so... I guess it'll be kinda like Hostel on ice. As for whether they will eat flesh, I have no idea. S'pose it depends if they run out of babies

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Old
06-20-2012, 12:15 AM
  #68
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Suter is going to be getting insane money. He'll likely end up being the highest paid defenceman in the league next season(cap hit), no way he deserves that. He's good, but he's not a franchise defenceman in my opinion. Although Brian Campbell isn't so deserving of that title right now.

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06-20-2012, 11:03 AM
  #69
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sick of these huge contracts , especially so early in a career.

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Old
06-20-2012, 11:10 AM
  #70
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Suter is going to be getting insane money. He'll likely end up being the highest paid defenceman in the league next season(cap hit), no way he deserves that. He's good, but he's not a franchise defenceman in my opinion. Although Brian Campbell isn't so deserving of that title right now.
I think he'll end up in Detroit with a 6 mil cap hit and leaving money on the table(50 mil over 8 years front loaded).

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06-20-2012, 11:37 AM
  #71
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havent seen this being discussed here but Bobby Ryan is said to be available again. Could be a great fit on the LW with Plekanec and Gionta. Return would have to be considerable though, so youll need to forget drafting third imo.

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06-20-2012, 11:40 AM
  #72
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havent seen this being discussed here but Bobby Ryan is said to be available again. Could be a great fit on the LW with Plekanec and Gionta. Return would have to be considerable though, so youll need to forget drafting third imo.
If true we should be all over this. Id actually move Cole down with Pleks and Gio and play DD- Patches and Ryan

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Old
06-20-2012, 12:09 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
I live in Ottawa...do you not think that I get (forced) to watch MANY of Ottawa's games?

As for Phillips/Cowen, they did play quite a bit together. Kuba/Karlsson were not the primary shutdown duo. They logged the most minutes however they did not primary face the toughest opposition. That's not to say that they ONLY played soft minutes. But Karlsson was not typically out there against the Kovalchuks/Ovechkins etc. (on top of the games I watched on TV I also went to see 5+ games live, he stepped off the ice nearly every time a star player stepped on).

Karlsson is a great hockey player, but there's a reason a lot of people don't believe that he deserves the Norris and not all of those people are as uneducated as you might think.
Pierre Lebrun and Bob Mackenzie think he is worthy - that's good enough for me.

I have a half season ticket in Ottawa and I can tell you he deserves it.

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Old
06-20-2012, 12:13 PM
  #74
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Pierre Lebrun and Bob Mackenzie think he is worthy - that's good enough for me.

I have a half season ticket in Ottawa and I can tell you he deserves it.
No doubt he did based on last year...but can he do that every year? Those are huge shoes to fill. That's like expecting 45+ goals a year from Jeff Carter.

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Old
06-20-2012, 12:19 PM
  #75
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No doubt he did based on last year...but can he do that every year? Those are huge shoes to fill. That's like expecting 45+ goals a year from Jeff Carter.
You're right but



Just saying.

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