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Sharks sign Brad Stuart (3 years, $3.6 per)

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Old
06-19-2012, 04:44 PM
  #226
Gilligans Island
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Advanced stuff:

2011-12:

+-QoC = .011
Corsi QoC = .187
GA on/60 = 2.15
+- on/60 = .75
Corsi Relative = -8.4

Def Zone starts = 45.7%

2010-11:


+-QoC = .099
Corsi QoC = .542
GA on/60 = 2.67
+- on/60 = .21
Corsi Relative = -13.4

Def Zone starts = 53.1%

Lidstrom effect hehe.
Bold indicates improvement year/year and ultimately, isn't the GA/60 the most important one...?

Yes, he faced less difficult competition (playing without Lidstrom) but he fared decently it seems. So, what point are you trying to make citing these stats?

Couldn't really care much that his def zone starts were less.

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06-19-2012, 04:45 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
That is a significant decrease in competition and a limited gain in defense, plus his defensive zone starts tell a lot of the story.

I'd take that second set of stats any day. Hopefully he simply had a bad season, but I'm just saying it's a concern.

His numbers do not even get close to touching Vlasic's, as a for instance.
Pickles is/should be slated for 1st pairing. Stuart should be a 2nd pairing dman and should be an upgrade over Murray. Period.

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06-19-2012, 04:52 PM
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Advanced stuff:

2011-12:

+-QoC = .011
Corsi QoC = .187
GA on/60 = 2.15
+- on/60 = .75
Corsi Relative = -8.4
Def Zone starts = 45.7%

2010-11:


+-QoC = .099
Corsi QoC = .542
GA on/60 = 2.67
+- on/60 = .21
Corsi Relative = -13.4
Def Zone starts = 53.1%

Lidstrom effect hehe.
I wouldn't say those look significantly worse, particuarly when you also say he went from playing with Lidstrom to playing with Kronwall (although you could maybe say the change in quality of competition washes out the change in partner quality).

Anyways, the reason we got him was I believe he lead Det in PK TOI, and our PK was trash. I think his Corsi PK numbers were better in 2011-12 than 2010-11 as well, but I'm too lazy to look them up again and post them

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06-19-2012, 04:53 PM
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
Bold indicates improvement year/year and ultimately, isn't the GA/60 the most important one...?

Yes, he faced less difficult competition (playing without Lidstrom) but he fared decently it seems. So, what point are you trying to make citing these stats?

Couldn't really care much that his def zone starts were less.
You have to take Qualcomp into account, and there was a huge drop in qualcomp from year to year. Also defensive zone starts indicates how trusted he is by the coach (one of the best in the league) in defensive situations. Under 50% for a defensive d-man is generally going to raise eyebrows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
Pickles is/should be slated for 1st pairing. Stuart should be a 2nd pairing dman and should be an upgrade over Murray. Period.
I agree, and I'm not saying he sucks or anything, I'm just saying I am concerned he is on the decline and we may get a bit of Colin White syndrome here (less than we expect, but not to the same degree). Personnel wise we are better off, absolutely, I'm just worried about the term and cap hit, especially if he has a NTC. I'm really not freaking out or anything, just concerned.

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06-19-2012, 05:07 PM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Chef View Post
From Pierre LeBrun's blog...

Stuart on Monday agreed to a three-year deal worth $3.6 million a season with the Sharks, which is a bit less than what Detroit offered him in the Red Wings’ last-ditch effort to re-sign him. A source told ESPN.com that the Wings offered three-year and four-year deals both worth just north of $3.6 million. Stuart returned to San Jose for family reasons.
I found it interesting that LeBrun singled out Demers as possible trade bait used to obtain a winger. I think most of us were assuming it would be Murray and it might well yet be, but Braun definitely seems to have over taken Demers in the org's eyes. I could see a trade with a team like the Isles, a team with a surplus of talented young wingers and a lack of quality defense benefiting both teams. One of Okposo, Bailey, or Grabner could probably be had for Demers++ depending on what else is involved.

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06-19-2012, 05:09 PM
  #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
You have to take Qualcomp into account, and there was a huge drop in qualcomp from year to year. Also defensive zone starts indicates how trusted he is by the coach (one of the best in the league) in defensive situations. Under 50% for a defensive d-man is generally going to raise eyebrows.



I agree, and I'm not saying he sucks or anything, I'm just saying I am concerned he is on the decline and we may get a bit of Colin White syndrome here (less than we expect, but not to the same degree). Personnel wise we are better off, absolutely, I'm just worried about the term and cap hit, especially if he has a NTC. I'm really not freaking out or anything, just concerned.
I hear you and agree on the concern, especially in the 3rd year of his deal.

However, I do believe pretty strongly that for this coming season and next, he'll be better than Murray (assuming he's on the team in 2013-14) and that, to me, is what matters. Come 2014-15 if Stuart is an albatross then there is risk but we'll have to see.

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06-19-2012, 05:28 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
I hear you and agree on the concern, especially in the 3rd year of his deal.

However, I do believe pretty strongly that for this coming season and next, he'll be better than Murray (assuming he's on the team in 2013-14) and that, to me, is what matters. Come 2014-15 if Stuart is an albatross then there is risk but we'll have to see.
I agree, he will absolutely be better than Murray.

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06-19-2012, 05:35 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by KirbyDots View Post
I found it interesting that LeBrun singled out Demers as possible trade bait used to obtain a winger. I think most of us were assuming it would be Murray and it might well yet be, but Braun definitely seems to have over taken Demers in the org's eyes. I could see a trade with a team like the Isles, a team with a surplus of talented young wingers and a lack of quality defense benefiting both teams. One of Okposo, Bailey, or Grabner could probably be had for Demers++ depending on what else is involved.
Please let it be KO! I still hope its Murray going. Demers is good skater & puckhandler, Demers & Braun as 3rd pair, & PK duty

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06-19-2012, 05:56 PM
  #234
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I highly doubt Demers (by himself) would bring back much in a trade. He hasn't exactly played well since initially bursting onto the scene.

Murray on the other hand I could see teams overpaying for because of his physical presence.

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06-19-2012, 06:29 PM
  #235
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Why are we trading Demers? Why are we trading young players at all?

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06-19-2012, 10:26 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
Bold indicates improvement year/year and ultimately, isn't the GA/60 the most important one...?

Yes, he faced less difficult competition (playing without Lidstrom) but he fared decently it seems. So, what point are you trying to make citing these stats?

Couldn't really care much that his def zone starts were less.
Yeah I fail to see the significant drop off. All QOC shows is how a player is being used. I believe the Wings wanted Stuart back well more like needed him back

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06-19-2012, 10:29 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
Why are we trading Demers? Why are we trading young players at all?
The Sharks are overloaded on the right side. Maybe if the Sharks have a stellar regular season they will be able to afford to allow Demers to learn the left otherwise it may better for all parties concerned to trade him.

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06-19-2012, 10:41 PM
  #238
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Demers or Braun as LD >>> Murray as LD

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06-19-2012, 10:43 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Demers or Braun as LD >>> Murray as LD
Basically this. I don't see why anyone should have an issue with Braun-Demers as a bottom pairing. Demers put up his best numbers of the season playing with Braun, and we can shelter those two fairly easily.

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06-19-2012, 10:43 PM
  #240
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Is Stuart gonna have to learn the left side too?

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06-19-2012, 10:47 PM
  #241
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Is Stuart gonna have to learn the left side too?
He has played left before. He's just a natural righty.

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06-19-2012, 10:52 PM
  #242
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Demers or Braun as LD >>> Murray as LD
Your basing this on what?

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06-19-2012, 10:55 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Your basing this on what?
i am guessing because both braun and demers were tested at points during last season on the LD when they were paired together.

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06-19-2012, 10:57 PM
  #244
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i am guessing because both braun and demers were tested at points during last season on the LD when they were paired together.
.... Demers barley played last season during his "left" experiment

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06-19-2012, 10:59 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Your basing this on what?
Murray was horrible last season. Today's NHL is all about speed. Demers and Braun are considerably faster than Murray and can move the puck up a lot more efficiently. Not to mention they are both more offensively adept than Murray.

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.... Demers barley played last season during his "left" experiment
Braun played LD in the 2nd half of the season and in the playoffs.

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06-19-2012, 11:03 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
.... Demers barley played last season during his "left" experiment
there were only a handful of games last season where demers barely played in games and yet those games he was still playing 14 minutes, and once he dipped down to 12 minutes (3rd game of the season)

other then that he was logging 15+ minutes of ice time, and regularly playing over 17 minutes.

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06-19-2012, 11:52 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Murray was horrible last season. Today's NHL is all about speed. Demers and Braun are considerably faster than Murray and can move the puck up a lot more efficiently. Not to mention they are both more offensively adept than Murray.
No it's not. It's about versatility. The Sharks already have two star PMD's, that's not a priority for the team, meaning players like Braun and Demers are expendable. You lose a guy like Murray then who's left as your force down low or in front of the net? Braun and Demers don't have the same imposing presence, they won't be able to clear players from the crease as effectively has Murray. Imagine a match-up of Demers/Bruan vs Nash or Perry or Getzlaf or Backes or Doan, and tell me they'll have the same presence as Murray in front of the net. Right...they won't. When you're in a PK situation you can't let those big forwards beat you.

Just because Brad Stuart is here, doesn't mean he can easily replace a guy like Murray in terms of physicality. With Stuart being here what will happen is Murray gets bumped to the last pair and gets less ice time. He won't be forced to share those top even strength minutes alongside Boyle.

Vlasic - Burns
Stuart - Boyle
Murray - Braun/Demers

That's one of the most balanced setups we've ever had on defense.

In regards to Murray being horrible, I only remember his play degrading after the hand injury in December, then the guy got unlucky and had to deal with that throat injury. It's not fair to assess his play as "horrible" when he was clearly playing through injuries.

Murray is an important part of this team on and off the ice, losing him will not be ideal.

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06-19-2012, 11:59 PM
  #248
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No it's not. It's about versatility. The Sharks already have two star PMD's, that's not a priority for the team, meaning players like Braun and Demers are expendable. You lose a guy like Murray then who's left as your force down low or in front of the net? Braun and Demers don't have the same imposing presence, they won't be able to clear players from the crease as effectively has Murray. Imagine a match-up of Demers/Bruan vs Nash or Perry or Getzlaf or Backes or Doan, and tell me they'll have the same presence as Murray in front of the net. Right...they won't. When you're in a PK situation you can't let those big forwards beat you.
You can never have too many PMDs. Not to mention Murray is the exact opposite of versatile. And the key to a good PK isn't crease clearing, it's pressuring the puck carrier and being aggressive. Murray has lost the ability to do that. Not only does he give up the blue-line extremely easily, he sits back and danglers take advantage of him. Both Demers and Braun have the speed and the agility to keep up with the likes of Kane, Eberle, etc. Murray gets absolutely destroyed against them (ie Duchene skating circles around him).
And Murray hasn't had a "net front presence" for a while now. All he's really good for on the PK is blocking shots, and even those lead to bad bounces every now and then.

Even with all that, we're ignoring that Murray is only going to go downhill from here and is an UFA after this season. Braun and Demers both haven't even reached their primes yet and are still RFAs.

EDIT: And Murray was horrible the entire season. He never had a stretch of solid play, pre or post injury.

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06-20-2012, 12:05 AM
  #249
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While I love Braun, did anybody here watch the IIHF Championships this summer when he was playing on team USA? He looked terrible.

Demers also had a stellar season two seasons ago.

My point being, they both have potential, but they are both still rookies. I wouldn't mind running with:

Pickles - Burns
Stuart - Boyle
Murray - Demers/Braun
Demers/Braun

AND on top of that, truly resting our D when they get banged up instead of forcing them to play through it like Boyle did at the beginning of last season. It gives us a legitimate opportunity to take a serious injury and minimize the impact better than we ever have in a long time.

If Burns or Boyle go down for an extended period, you have Demers or Braun to take their place. We have 3 LD (well 2 natural LD and one who has played there in Stuart) who are all capable of playing top 4 minutes, and I just don't see the bad part in holding on to all 7 of those D this season.

I would, however, buy into the theory that we need to trade Murray because he will likely walk after this year and therefore we can get something for him. Still, I'd rather wait until the season gets going before we do that.

Also, I can see Braun being the odd man out over Demers simply because Demers will be a UFA after this year if memory serves me.

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06-20-2012, 12:12 AM
  #250
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While I love Braun, did anybody here watch the IIHF Championships this summer when he was playing on team USA? He looked terrible.

Also, I can see Braun being the odd man out over Demers simply because Demers will be a UFA after this year if memory serves me.
Yeah, Braun was absolutely horrible in the WC. Hopefully, he uses this off-season to improve his game.
I also don't think DW will trade Braun (or at least shop him). He talked about him and Wingels pretty highly in his interview on NHL Tonight.

Demers will also still be an RFA after this year.

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