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Sharks sign Brad Stuart (3 years, $3.6 per)

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06-20-2012, 12:22 AM
  #251
Winky
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Originally Posted by param View Post
No it's not. It's about versatility. The Sharks already have two star PMD's, that's not a priority for the team, meaning players like Braun and Demers are expendable. You lose a guy like Murray then who's left as your force down low or in front of the net? Braun and Demers don't have the same imposing presence, they won't be able to clear players from the crease as effectively has Murray. Imagine a match-up of Demers/Bruan vs Nash or Perry or Getzlaf or Backes or Doan, and tell me they'll have the same presence as Murray in front of the net. Right...they won't. When you're in a PK situation you can't let those big forwards beat you.

Just because Brad Stuart is here, doesn't mean he can easily replace a guy like Murray in terms of physicality. With Stuart being here what will happen is Murray gets bumped to the last pair and gets less ice time. He won't be forced to share those top even strength minutes alongside Boyle.

Vlasic - Burns
Stuart - Boyle
Murray - Braun/Demers

That's one of the most balanced setups we've ever had on defense.

In regards to Murray being horrible, I only remember his play degrading after the hand injury in December, then the guy got unlucky and had to deal with that throat injury. It's not fair to assess his play as "horrible" when he was clearly playing through injuries.

Murray is an important part of this team on and off the ice, losing him will not be ideal.
I agree. I can see DW keeping Murray for the added depth on D go with those 7. His physicality is unmatched by anyone else on the team (though he has seemed to be regressing in that regard). The only change I would welcome would be to get Suter if he'd come here, and move Boyle. Otherwise, that looks like a solid 7 defensemen going into next season.

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06-20-2012, 12:27 AM
  #252
LadyStanley
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WC was Braun's first opportunity to play on the big ice.

So, some of his "bad play" was not knowing/understanding the difference of angles/etc.

Hopefully a major learning experience.

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06-20-2012, 12:31 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
You can never have too many PMDs. Not to mention Murray is the exact opposite of versatile. And the key to a good PK isn't crease clearing, it's pressuring the puck carrier and being aggressive. Murray has lost the ability to do that. Not only does he give up the blue-line extremely easily, he sits back and danglers take advantage of him. Both Demers and Braun have the speed and the agility to keep up with the likes of Kane, Eberle, etc. Murray gets absolutely destroyed against them (ie Duchene skating circles around him).
And Murray hasn't had a "net front presence" for a while now. All he's really good for on the PK is blocking shots, and even those lead to bad bounces every now and then.

Even with all that, we're ignoring that Murray is only going to go downhill from here and is an UFA after this season. Braun and Demers both haven't even reached their primes yet and are still RFAs.

EDIT: And Murray was horrible the entire season. He never had a stretch of solid play, pre or post injury.
Versatility in terms of the overall team, not each individual player. You can't stockpile a bunch of PMD's on the back end assume everything will work perfectly. If that was the case then NHL GM's are absolute idiots for padding their defense with guys like Willie Mitchell or Matt Greene.

Pressuring the puck carrier is part of having a good defensive strategy, it's not the only thing. The same way clearing the crease isn't the only thing you need to worry about, but it is important. You can't say that because you keep pressuring the puck carrier, no shots will ever get through for a guy who can deflect or screen.

I think people are seeing the worst in Murray because this always seems to happen when young players start developing. Folks become infatuated with the new fresh guys and start throwing the over 30's under the bus. I mean hell, there are people who seriously want a guy like Dan Boyle gone right now because we have Burns.

Murray was not as atrocious as you keep making him out to be, he doesn't have the speed and it can be frustrating to watch, but I believe you're just looking for the worst in him.

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06-20-2012, 12:33 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
WC was Braun's first opportunity to play on the big ice.

So, some of his "bad play" was not knowing/understanding the difference of angles/etc.

Hopefully a major learning experience.
I was thinking that too, but he certainly wasn't the only defenseman that never played on the big ice before. He was noticeably bad. USA would be dominating possession until Braun stepped on the ice, then they were hemmed in the d-zone for the entire shift. Every breakout pass was slow and off target.

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06-20-2012, 12:39 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by param View Post
Versatility in terms of the overall team, not each individual player. You can't stockpile a bunch of PMD's on the back end assume everything will work perfectly. If that was the case then NHL GM's are absolute idiots for padding their defense with guys like Willie Mitchell or Matt Greene.

Pressuring the puck carrier is part of having a good defensive strategy, it's not the only thing. The same way clearing the crease isn't the only thing you need to worry about, but it is important. You can't say that because you keep pressuring the puck carrier, no shots will ever get through for a guy who can deflect or screen.

I think people are seeing the worst in Murray because this always seems to happen when young players start developing. Folks become infatuated with the new fresh guys and start throwing the over 30's under the bus. I mean hell, there are people who seriously want a guy like Dan Boyle gone right now because we have Burns.

Murray was not as atrocious as you keep making him out to be, he doesn't have the speed and it can be frustrating to watch, but I believe you're just looking for the worst in him.
Willie Mitchell and Matt Greene are both better puck movers than Murray. If you look at Vancouver, a key reason why their defense was so good in 10-11 wasn't only because they were all decent puck-movers, but they were all mobile. The dump and chase game is practically ineffective against them. And really, Murray's speed is atrocious. Near the end of the season, every team had a playbook of how to enter the zone when Murray was on the ice. You dump the puck on the left side of the ice and you retrieve it because Murray isn't fast enough to get it.

Pressuring the puck carrier is probably the most important aspect of PKing. What Murray does is replaceable (getting into shooting lanes and blocking shots). The Sharks haven't been a crease clearing team since Blake left.

And yes, people are seeing the worst in Murray because of the young-guns. It's because these young guns are better than Murray and their skill sets are a lot harder to come by.
Also, who exactly wants to trade Boyle? I've only seen people trading Boyle if DW signs Carle or Suter.

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06-20-2012, 12:49 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
I was thinking that too, but he certainly wasn't the only defenseman that never played on the big ice before. He was noticeably bad. USA would be dominating possession until Braun stepped on the ice, then they were hemmed in the d-zone for the entire shift. Every breakout pass was slow and off target.
Seriously, Braun ended up getting benched in some of the games he played and I can't remember if they were playing with 7 or 6 dmen. I want to say one game it was with 6, and then the next game they played with 7 dmen and Braun got benched again.

The guy was barely playing by the end of the tournament. It was brutal. I was surprised nobody mentioned it and was wondering if people noticed what I noticed.

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06-20-2012, 12:52 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Willie Mitchell and Matt Greene are both better puck movers than Murray. If you look at Vancouver, a key reason why their defense was so good in 10-11 wasn't only because they were all decent puck-movers, but they were all mobile. The dump and chase game is practically ineffective against them. And really, Murray's speed is atrocious. Near the end of the season, every team had a playbook of how to enter the zone when Murray was on the ice. You dump the puck on the left side of the ice and you retrieve it because Murray isn't fast enough to get it.

Pressuring the puck carrier is probably the most important aspect of PKing. What Murray does is replaceable (getting into shooting lanes and blocking shots). The Sharks haven't been a crease clearing team since Blake left.

And yes, people are seeing the worst in Murray because of the young-guns. It's because these young guns are better than Murray and their skill sets are a lot harder to come by.
Also, who exactly wants to trade Boyle? I've only seen people trading Boyle if DW signs Carle or Suter.
I can see our Mitchell/Greene being to some extent Stuart/Pickles if Pickles continues his nasty streak of last season and continues to develop.

Remember when Mitchell was a leper because of his concussions? It was a high risk high reward play by Dean but it paid off.

Regardless, I'd still like to have our 7 capable dmen in Boyle, Burns, Vlasic, Stuart, Murray, Demers, Braun and be happy with our depth. I can see us trading one of Murray, Demers, or Braun, but hope it is for a top 6 winger.

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06-20-2012, 12:52 AM
  #258
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The guy was barely playing by the end of the tournament. It was brutal. I was surprised nobody mentioned it and was wondering if people noticed what I noticed.
A few of us talked about it in the WC topic, but only a few posts. I guess that's what happens when the WCs are during the SC Playoffs.

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Regardless, I'd still like to have our 7 capable dmen in Boyle, Burns, Vlasic, Stuart, Murray, Demers, Braun and be happy with our depth. I can see us trading one of Murray, Demers, or Braun, but hope it is for a top 6 winger.
I wouldn't mind that either, as long as Murray is the 7th. Demers and Braun deserve more playing time. I just know if Murray is on the team, TMac will try to roll Murray for 82, Braun for ~50 and Demers for ~30.

Murray is exceptionally fit and a workhorse, so I wouldn't be surprised if he improved his game since last season. It would just be a smarter move for the long-run to keep Demers and Braun, unless a great Top-6 is coming back.

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06-20-2012, 01:11 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Willie Mitchell and Matt Greene are both better puck movers than Murray. If you look at Vancouver, a key reason why their defense was so good in 10-11 wasn't only because they were all decent puck-movers, but they were all mobile. The dump and chase game is practically ineffective against them. And really, Murray's speed is atrocious. Near the end of the season, every team had a playbook of how to enter the zone when Murray was on the ice. You dump the puck on the left side of the ice and you retrieve it because Murray isn't fast enough to get it.

Pressuring the puck carrier is probably the most important aspect of PKing. What Murray does is replaceable (getting into shooting lanes and blocking shots). The Sharks haven't been a crease clearing team since Blake left.

And yes, people are seeing the worst in Murray because of the young-guns. It's because these young guns are better than Murray and their skill sets are a lot harder to come by.
Also, who exactly wants to trade Boyle? I've only seen people trading Boyle if DW signs Carle or Suter.
What?

Before I use GVA's in this argument, I do want to state that giveaways are not the perfect gauge for assessing quality of passes or the player's decisions with the puck, but they do provide some insight into whether the guy is a complete scrub, as you seem to suggest with Murray.

Giveaways per game:
Mitchell - .72
Greene - .536

Murray - .55

If Murray is as horrible with moving the puck as you're making him out to be, wouldn't his bad decisions reflect the GVA column? Even remotely? Instead Mitchell seems to turn the puck over more, and Greene is on par with Murray.

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06-20-2012, 01:33 AM
  #260
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I don't know about Greene, but Willie Mitchell has a very underrated offensive game. Murray isn't even close to him.

The reason why Murray has so few giveaways is because he hardly ever has possession of the puck.

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06-20-2012, 09:43 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by param View Post
Before I use GVA's in this argument, I do want to state that giveaways are not the perfect gauge for assessing quality of passes or the player's decisions with the puck, but they do provide some insight into whether the guy is a complete scrub, as you seem to suggest with Murray.

Giveaways per game:
Mitchell - .72
Greene - .536

Murray - .55

If Murray is as horrible with moving the puck as you're making him out to be, wouldn't his bad decisions reflect the GVA column? Even remotely? Instead Mitchell seems to turn the puck over more, and Greene is on par with Murray.
Arguing for giveaways/game as any sort of metric seems pretty lousy to me. You're not measuring successful passes, only the total amount of passes intercepted and the total amount of games played. Thornton has more than double Murray's giveaways/game, Boyle exceeds Murray with .81/game. Murray's passing game is not superior to either in any way. There are too many other variables at play. Does the player spend a lot of time on the power play? Average ice time? Player's role? Etc.

I know you very clearly qualified this metric as "not perfect", but that doesn't make it good or fair either.

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06-20-2012, 10:38 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
I wouldn't mind that either, as long as Murray is the 7th. Demers and Braun deserve more playing time. I just know if Murray is on the team, TMac will try to roll Murray for 82, Braun for ~50 and Demers for ~30.

Murray is exceptionally fit and a workhorse, so I wouldn't be surprised if he improved his game since last season. It would just be a smarter move for the long-run to keep Demers and Braun, unless a great Top-6 is coming back.

This is the main reason I wouldn't mind seeing Murray moved, because if he stays I highly doubt it will be as the 7th D-man. Braun and Demers will be rotating in and out of the lineup yet again, and this is the year that they need to show they can be everyday players.


Last edited by Tkachuk4MVP: 06-20-2012 at 11:04 AM.
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06-20-2012, 10:56 AM
  #263
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What?

Before I use GVA's in this argument, I do want to state that giveaways are not the perfect gauge for assessing quality of passes or the player's decisions with the puck, but they do provide some insight into whether the guy is a complete scrub, as you seem to suggest with Murray.

Giveaways per game:
Mitchell - .72
Greene - .536

Murray - .55

If Murray is as horrible with moving the puck as you're making him out to be, wouldn't his bad decisions reflect the GVA column? Even remotely? Instead Mitchell seems to turn the puck over more, and Greene is on par with Murray.
murray is a real bad example to use for give aways, especially when he plays with boyle. usually when murray and boyle are paired together the 1st pass murray makes is to pass the puck back to boyle.

and if that option isn't open, the next choice is to make the quick 5 foot pass to the forward on the side boards.

i don't think i have ever seen murray get the puck in the defensive zone and then make a quick pass up to someone out of the zone, his 1st passes are always just short passes.

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06-20-2012, 02:34 PM
  #264
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Assuming his play doesn't decline, I'm perfectly happy with 3.6/3 with an NMC for stuart. IMO that's a fair deal, you don't screw a guy simply because he wants to be near his family, that's not a good thing to do when you're hoping to attract high profile UFAs.

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06-20-2012, 04:00 PM
  #265
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Assuming his play doesn't decline, I'm perfectly happy with 3.6/3 with an NMC for stuart. IMO that's a fair deal, you don't screw a guy simply because he wants to be near his family, that's not a good thing to do when you're hoping to attract high profile UFAs.
Someday it will pay off. Someday...

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06-20-2012, 04:03 PM
  #266
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Assuming his play doesn't decline, I'm perfectly happy with 3.6/3 with an NMC for stuart. IMO that's a fair deal, you don't screw a guy simply because he wants to be near his family, that's not a good thing to do when you're hoping to attract high profile UFAs.
I don't think paying a guy three mil with a full NMC for three years to play where he wants to play is screwing the guy.

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06-20-2012, 04:14 PM
  #267
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is this why sj is known as a soft market where if you suck no one cares? cuz we generally are all 'oh we don't want to screw them! make them happy! what's an overpayment between friends?" or "you know, 0 points in the playoffs wasn't good, but for the bargain price of 7 million, i think he did mighty fine!"

negotiations are not screwing over the player. they are about getting what both sides want. stuart would have taken 3.3 to play here without a doubt if he got what he REALLY wanted, which is the nmc. what's 300k? among 5 or 6 similar contracts, that's your solid 3rd liner. or that's your #5 dman. or that's the difference between zeus and pavs.

i'm not arguing that 3.6 is an atrocious price for him, but anyone who thinks 'oh whatever, it's just a few hundred thousand' doesn't understand how cap space is a zero sum game, and how a good negotiator will try and get as low a cap hit as possible. i seriously don't understand how some people can be 'oh 3.6 w/ NMC is FINE don't scerw over stuart!" in one breath at the same time they cheer when DW signs pavs for 4 mil. shouldn't you guys all be "omg DW SCREWED PAVS!" cuz we are way underpaying him. so if you cheer for contracts like pavs, then you should be cheering for them for ALL of our players.

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06-20-2012, 04:45 PM
  #268
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I don't know about Greene, but Willie Mitchell has a very underrated offensive game. Murray isn't even close to him.

The reason why Murray has so few giveaways is because he hardly ever has possession of the puck.
Yeah, Willie Mitchell is way better than Murray offensively. LA actually used him on the PP - and he looked good doing it. Greene, I'd say is like Murray just a little faster with moving the puck to the net.

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06-20-2012, 08:36 PM
  #269
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Wait, has it been confirmed that Stuart got an NMC?

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06-20-2012, 08:40 PM
  #270
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Wait, has it been confirmed that Stuart got an NMC?
If I could bet on it, I would. Capgeek says no, but it said no about Burns for a long time too, so who knows.

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06-20-2012, 08:41 PM
  #271
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Wait, has it been confirmed that Stuart got an NMC?
Nothing on Capgeek. People seem to be just assuming that he'd want one due to family situation and DW is prone to handing them out like they were Tic Tacs.

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06-20-2012, 08:44 PM
  #272
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Nothing on Capgeek. People seem to be just assuming that he'd want one due to family situation and DW is prone to giving them away like they were Tic Tacs.
Meh, not really. Look at Calgary's roster.

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06-20-2012, 08:47 PM
  #273
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Meh, not really. Look at Calgary's roster.
Haha true, maybe Handzus's NMC has jaded me.

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06-20-2012, 08:52 PM
  #274
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Haha true, maybe Handzus's NMC has jaded me.
Yeah, Handzus is an outlier. We have four NMCs and they're given to our franchise players (Burns is borderline).

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06-20-2012, 08:55 PM
  #275
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Yeah, Handzus is an outlier. We have four NMCs and they're given to our franchise players (Burns is borderline).
Colin White had one so did Niclas Wallin.

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