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CBJ-PHI (Rick Nash rumors and proposed deals; update: traded to NYR, July 23)

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Old
06-19-2012, 11:16 PM
  #276
Cash for Nash
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Originally Posted by Dink the Clown View Post
Absolutely zero chance I'd include Couturier. Wouldn't give up Schenn either. They'd get something like JVR, Read, Bob +.
If that is the supposed aggressive offer is an injury prone bust, a sorry back up goalie who put up worse playoff numbers than Bryz, a flash in the pan 26 year old rookie and a late 1st rounder, I think it is safe to say Nash will not end up in Philly....

The Flyers are a bad ass team anyway...no point in giving up the players (Schenn, Coutuier, Giroux) are a centerpiece it would take to acquire Nasher.

If the Carter trade was a fleece job by Holgren, this would be twice feat.

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06-19-2012, 11:25 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
If that is the supposed aggressive offer is an injury prone bust, a sorry back up goalie who put up worse playoff numbers than Bryz, a flash in the pan 26 year old rookie and a late 1st rounder, I think it is safe to say Nash will not end up in Philly....

The Flyers are a bad ass team anyway...no point in giving up the players (Schenn, Coutuier, Giroux) are a centerpiece it would take to acquire Nasher.

If the Carter trade was a fleece job by Holgren, this would be twice feat.
That 26 year old rookie got 12 less points than Nash last year for less than an eighth of Nash's cap hit.

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06-19-2012, 11:31 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
If that is the supposed aggressive offer is an injury prone bust, a sorry back up goalie who put up worse playoff numbers than Bryz, a flash in the pan 26 year old rookie and a late 1st rounder, I think it is safe to say Nash will not end up in Philly....

The Flyers are a bad ass team anyway...no point in giving up the players (Schenn, Coutuier, Giroux) are a centerpiece it would take to acquire Nasher.

If the Carter trade was a fleece job by Holgren, this would be twice feat.
I'm sure this was an accident... but you didn't suggest that Giroux could ever be the centerpiece (e.g., implying other pieces) for Nash, did you?

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06-19-2012, 11:43 PM
  #279
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I'm sure this was an accident... but you didn't suggest that Giroux could ever be the centerpiece (e.g., implying other pieces) for Nash, did you?
I'm sure Holmgren is incredibly eager to give up his 3.75 million dollar, young 90 point center for a 7.8 million dollar 60 point player on the wrong end of his prime.

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06-19-2012, 11:50 PM
  #280
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I want no part of Rick Nash and his contract. Such a shame that a player as good as he is can be so unattractive to this team.

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06-20-2012, 12:04 AM
  #281
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I want no part of Rick Nash and his contract. Such a shame that a player as good as he is can be so unattractive to this team.
Agreed. He's a very good player for a team looking for a strong forward. He just doesn't fill any need the Flyers have.

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06-20-2012, 12:10 AM
  #282
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Homer denied that Nash vetoed any trade.
Homer, the bastion of truth.

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06-20-2012, 12:26 AM
  #283
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I just don't get it. Trading for Nash would be akin to a man being attracted to women, not men, and just getting bored one day and aggressively hunting for sex with a man who is sought after by many. Why? No one knows, makes no sense, it fills no needs or desires, and it's just kind of the cool thing to do apparently.

The team needs D. Use all resources to get D-men. I don't get it.

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06-20-2012, 12:34 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by JohnnyOnTheSpot View Post
I just don't get it. Trading for Nash would be akin to a man being attracted to women, not men, and just getting bored one day and aggressively hunting for sex with a man who is sought after by many. Why? No one knows, makes no sense, it fills no needs or desires, and it's just kind of the cool thing to do apparently.

The team needs D. Use all resources to get D-men. I don't get it.
That's an ... odd way of making the point.

But here's the simple justification for acquiring Nash--Jagr is (likely) gone, Hartnell is not a reliable 37-goal scorer, Voracek can't / won't shoot, and JVR hasn't proven he can produce consistently.

We lack a bona-fide top-line scorer to go with Giroux's pass-first mentality. Nash is that.

Now, that said, I wouldn't move heaven and earth to get him--but I don't think it is accurate to state that "it makes no sense" or "fills no needs."

His cap hit is a concern, but isn't unmanageable given our roster structure.

I think there are better options out there that are rumored to be available (Kane, Ryan), and my bottom line for Nash--JVR + two of (Mez, Bob, Read, and our 1st) is probably not enough to get him.

But, all that aside, Nash would comfortably be the 2nd best forward (and probably player) on this team.


Last edited by Jack de la Hoya: 06-20-2012 at 12:49 AM. Reason: Grammatical correction.
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06-20-2012, 12:37 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by JohnnyOnTheSpot View Post
I just don't get it. Trading for Nash would be akin to a man being attracted to women, not men, and just getting bored one day and aggressively hunting for sex with a man who is sought after by many. Why? No one knows, makes no sense, it fills no needs or desires, and it's just kind of the cool thing to do apparently.

The team needs D. Use all resources to get D-men. I don't get it.
i agree but in reality he might not be able to, i know everyone wants weber but he not be there for a trade because nashville wants him more that's reality, it's unfortunate for the flyers the only thing that can do is get a great goal scorer because he's got size, it's not just defense, defense has to come from the wingers, i think the flyers are going to have to draft a defensemen to fill pronger's need.

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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
That's an ... odd way of making the point.

But here's the simple justification for acquiring Nash--Jagr is (likely) gone, Hartnell is not a reliably 37-goal scorer, Voracek can't / won't shoot, and JVR hasn't proven he can produce consistently.

We lack a bona-fide top-line scorer to go with Giroux's pass-first mentality. Nash is that.

Now, that said, I wouldn't move heaven and earth to get him--but I don't think it is accurate to state that "it makes no sense" or "fills no needs."

His cap hit is a concern, but isn't unmanageable given our roster structure.

I think there are better options out there rumored to be available (Kane, Ryan), and my bottom line for Nash--JVR + two of (Mez, Bob, Read, and our 1st) is probably not enough to get him.

Bottom line--make no mistake, Nash would comfortably be the 2nd best forward (and probably player) on this team.
that's true, i just wish the whole team would on the same page accept trying to make fancy plays which hurt this team against the devils, they all have to shoot more that's why LA got it.


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Old
06-20-2012, 12:46 AM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyOnTheSpot View Post
I just don't get it. Trading for Nash would be akin to a man being attracted to women, not men, and just getting bored one day and aggressively hunting for sex with a man who is sought after by many. Why? No one knows, makes no sense, it fills no needs or desires, and it's just kind of the cool thing to do apparently.

The team needs D. Use all resources to get D-men. I don't get it.
I laughed at this because I thought the analogy completey made sense for the situation - albeit an odd analogy.

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06-20-2012, 12:53 AM
  #287
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Both Nash and JVR are signed thru the 2017-2018 season. Nash's cap hit is only 3.55m higher... assuming JVR is the main piece, is it that ridiculous to acquire a guy to play with Giroux who's scored 30+ goals in 7 of his 9 seasons and 40+ twice? JVR has tools and potential, but Nash is almost a lock for 40 each year with G.

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06-20-2012, 12:59 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Dink the Clown View Post
Both Nash and JVR are signed thru the 2017-2018 season. Nash's cap hit is only 3.55m higher... assuming JVR is the main piece, is it that ridiculous to acquire a guy to play with Giroux who's scored 30+ goals in 7 of his 9 seasons and 40+ twice? JVR has tools and potential, but Nash is almost a lock for 40 each year with G.
I think the majority of posters here would agree that $3.5 million is worth the "guarantee" that JVR turns into... well... a peak version of JVR.

In other words, I can't imagine more than a handful would object to a straight JVR-Nash swap--regardless of the cap hit involved.

Of course, Columbus would (rightly) balk at that.

The question is, how much are you willing to add to JVR to make the exchange.

Assuming Columbus isn't adding significantly, I can't imagine anyone where would add Schenn, Couturier, or Voracek.

That leaves Simmonds, Read, Mezsaros, Bob, and picks among "movable" assets that could potentially enter into the deal--and I think that's where the rough consensus from above breaks down.

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06-20-2012, 01:15 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I think the majority of posters here would agree that $3.5 million is worth the "guarantee" that JVR turns into... well... a peak version of JVR.

In other words, I can't imagine more than a handful would object to a straight JVR-Nash swap--regardless of the cap hit involved.

Of course, Columbus would (rightly) balk at that.

The question is, how much are you willing to add to JVR to make the exchange.

Assuming Columbus isn't adding significantly, I can't imagine anyone where would add Schenn, Couturier, or Voracek.

That leaves Simmonds, Read, Mezsaros, Bob, and picks among "movable" assets that could potentially enter into the deal--and I think that's where the rough consensus from above breaks down.
I would because of the salary cap considerations. Nash is better right now and might be next year, but long term? Who do you think will be more productive over the rest of Nash's contract? Nash from the age 28 through 33 or JVR from age 23 through 28?

I think there's a decent chance JVR will out perform him or at least come close because those will be his peak years while we will be getting some of Nash's decline years. In fact, he is already showing signs of a decline.

I think long term you regret trading him for Nash especially considering the difference in cap hits. $3.5M isn't chump change. That could be the difference between a Weber level talent and a Meszaros level talent.

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06-20-2012, 01:23 AM
  #290
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I would because of the salary cap considerations. Nash is better right now and might be next year, but long term? Who do you think will be more productive over the rest of Nash's contract? Nash from the age 28 through 33 or JVR from age 23 through 28?

I think there's a decent chance JVR will out perform him or at least come close because those will be his peak years while we will be getting some of Nash's decline years. In fact, he is already showing signs of a decline.

I think long term you regret trading him for Nash especially considering the difference in cap hits. $3.5M isn't chump change. That could be the difference between a Weber level talent and a Meszaros level talent.
He ISN'T showing signs of decline, where do you keep coming up with this ******** and why do you stick with it??

We know approximately what Nash will give us from 28-33 (barring injury)

We have no clue what JvR will give us from 23-28 (injuries almost guaranteed at this point). He hasn't even shown that he can play well with Giroux, which is mind-boggling in its own right.

I'd rather have Ryan still, and Nash doesn't even have us on his list of teams to waive for...but it does fill a need. Primary scoring IS a need. It's secondary scoring we have more of than anyone in hockey.

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06-20-2012, 01:41 AM
  #291
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He ISN'T showing signs of decline, where do you keep coming up with this ******** and why do you stick with it??

We know approximately what Nash will give us from 28-33 (barring injury)

We have no clue what JvR will give us from 23-28 (injuries almost guaranteed at this point). He hasn't even shown that he can play well with Giroux, which is mind-boggling in its own right.

I'd rather have Ryan still, and Nash doesn't even have us on his list of teams to waive for...but it does fill a need. Primary scoring IS a need. It's secondary scoring we have more of than anyone in hockey.
It's called facts.

Last 5 seasons.

79 points in 78 games
67 points in 76 games
66 points in 75 games
59 points in 82 games

But I'm sure you are going to have some excuse for him, right?

We don't know what he is going to do. You are assuming that his numbers are depressed due to playing on a poor team (funny how that doesn't hold someone like Tavares back) and that he will improve by playing beside Giroux. Except you don't really know that. It's just your assumption and hope. It's also ignoring the history of scorers in the league. That they tend to experience their decline at this stage of their careers.

What if 30 goals and 60 points is Nash's true talent level? That's a good hockey player, but is it worth nearly $8M a year? Is it much better than where JVR projects to be?

What about Giroux? If you acquire Nash and his salary and he sees an inferior player making more money than him what is he going to think when his contract is up? Is he going to happily take less? Or will he rightfully want to be the highest paid player on the team?

The Flyers had the 2nd best offense in the league last year. Primary scoring is an issue? Yes, some of their players had career years and Jagr will be gone, but their offense isn't going to suddenly dry up.

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06-20-2012, 03:45 AM
  #292
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If we don't give up Schenn or Couturier then I'm all for it. Just don't resign Timo and Hartnell next season and cap won't be an issue.

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06-20-2012, 07:44 AM
  #293
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The more I think about trading JVR (plus pieces) for Nash, the more I don't like it. I just have a very bad feeling that the franchise will regret it. What if JVR is on the cusp of that illusive injury-free season? What if he breaks out next year and scores 30+ goals?

He's 23 years old. A kid in the NHL by any stretch. This franchise has given up on so many young, talented forwards who end up being key players for other teams (ex. Justin Williams, he of now TWO rings). I'm terrified that giving up on JVR at this point is the wrong move.

If he becomes a 30+ goal player, and say 60-70 points for the next several years (say age 23-30), we will sorely regret making this deal. I just don't feel like its time to give up on him yet, especially considering that goals are NOT what we are lacking. I know its a game of weighing his current value with projected value, and that is he really is a bust now would basically be the last opportunity to trade him while his value is relatively high. I just have a bad feeling...

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06-20-2012, 07:48 AM
  #294
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The more I think about trading JVR (plus pieces) for Nash, the more I don't like it. I just have a very bad feeling that the franchise will regret it. What if JVR is on the cusp of that illusive injury-free season? What if he breaks out next year and scores 30+ goals?

He's 23 years old. A kid in the NHL by any stretch. This franchise has given up on so many young, talented forwards who end up being key players for other teams (ex. Justin Williams, he of now TWO rings). I'm terrified that giving up on JVR at this point is the wrong move.

If he becomes a 30+ goal player, and say 60-70 points for the next several years (say age 23-30), we will sorely regret making this deal. I just don't feel like its time to give up on him yet, especially considering that goals are NOT what we are lacking. I know its a game of weighing his current value with projected value, and that is he really is a bust now would basically be the last opportunity to trade him while his value is relatively high. I just have a bad feeling...
But..

What if he is a player who can never stay healthy and never really breaks 40 points?

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06-20-2012, 08:45 AM
  #295
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Forget Nash, Hello Bobby Ryan!!!

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Old
06-20-2012, 08:47 AM
  #296
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Forget Nash, Hello Bobby Ryan!!!
This.

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06-20-2012, 08:56 AM
  #297
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Forget Nash, Hello Bobby Ryan!!!
Nash will cost significantly less to acquire in a trade, I think.

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06-20-2012, 09:02 AM
  #298
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Nash will cost significantly less to acquire in a trade, I think.
I actually think it's the opposite

Only time will tell when(if) both are traded.

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06-20-2012, 09:09 AM
  #299
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I actually think it's the opposite

Only time will tell when(if) both are traded.
Well, I should clarify--I think Columbus is prepared to take a package of NHL-ready assets and futures; I don't think the Ducks will have interest in futures as more than add-ins at the end.

For our team, light on impact prospects, I think we'd need to give up more important pieces from our roster for Ryan than Nash. Some secondary assets (Bob, Mez) that might have value for Columbus have less for Anaheim.

In other words, I wouldn't be surprised if the total package for Nash came to more than Ryan, but I would be surprised if the number of young, blue chip pieces is more.

In short, I think we could get Nash while only giving up one of JVR, Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn and Couturier; I think it would take two for Ryan.

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06-20-2012, 09:12 AM
  #300
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Nash will cost significantly less to acquire in a trade, I think.
I think you are looking at Richards/Carter like return for both players, no matter what fans think. So your looking at a top ten pick/prospect (Schenn or 8th overall last yr), a young 2nd/3rd line winger (Voracek/Simmonds), and a 2nd/3rd Rd pick. Production wise, the players are in the same ballpark at the time of the trade with Richards and Carter playing the more in demand position. So all these gigantic proposals on the main board are pretty comical and not likely in the real world.

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