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CBJ-PHI (Rick Nash rumors and proposed deals; update: traded to NYR, July 23)

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Old
06-20-2012, 08:16 AM
  #301
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Well, I should clarify--I think Columbus is prepared to take a package of NHL-ready assets and futures; I don't think the Ducks will have interest in futures as more than add-ins at the end.

For our team, light on impact prospects, I think we'd need to give up more important pieces from our roster for Ryan than Nash. Some secondary assets (Bob, Mez) that might have value for Columbus have less for Anaheim.

In other words, I wouldn't be surprised if the total package for Nash came to more than Ryan, but I would be surprised if the number of young, blue chip pieces is more.

In short, I think we could get Nash while only giving up one of JVR, Voracek, Simmonds, Schenn and Couturier; I think it would take two for Ryan.
I don't think I agree with this, and don't think any GM should pay more for Ryan then Nash. People might think im crazy, but you said in the other thread the asking price by the fans for Ryan is astronomical. It just won't happen. Nash has been rumored two roster players, blue chipper, and a pick. Nash hold more value, in terms of talent. I think Nash would perform better next to Giroux then Ryan. My best offer for Ryan would be JVR+Cousins+2nd rounder. People might think that is a "low ball" offer, but I would never give two young forwards like Schenn, Voracek, Couts, Simmonds, or JVR in a trade for Ryan. It hurts our teams in the long run.

I just thank the gods the teams of the NHL are not run by the trade rumor thread people on this site

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06-20-2012, 08:18 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
I think you are looking at Richards/Carter like return for both players, no matter what fans think. So your looking at a top ten pick/prospect (Schenn or 8th overall last yr), a young 2nd/3rd line winger (Voracek/Simmonds), and a 2nd/3rd Rd pick. Production wise, the players are in the same ballpark at the time of the trade with Richards and Carter playing the more in demand position. So all these gigantic proposals on the main board are pretty comical and not likely in the real world.
This is what I have been trying to say to them out there! Also I believe they will receive slightly less then what we did for Richards and Carter because of the position they played. #1 Centers are much more sought out after then first line wingers.

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06-20-2012, 08:25 AM
  #303
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I don't think I agree with this, and don't think any GM should pay more for Ryan then Nash. People might think im crazy, but you said in the other thread the asking price by the fans for Ryan is astronomical. It just won't happen. Nash has been rumored two roster players, blue chipper, and a pick. Nash hold more value, in terms of talent. I think Nash would perform better next to Giroux then Ryan. My best offer for Ryan would be JVR+Cousins+2nd rounder. People might think that is a "low ball" offer, but I would never give two young forwards like Schenn, Voracek, Couts, Simmonds, or JVR in a trade for Ryan. It hurts our teams in the long run.

I just thank the gods the teams of the NHL are not run by the trade rumor thread people on this site
I don't think it is a stretch at all to suggest that Ryan holds more value. He's basically matched Nash's average production in the four years since he entered the NHL, he's younger, and he has a much better cap hit. (Ryan, of course, had better teammates as well).

Do I think, tomorrow, that Nash is a better player? Of course. But that's not the same as his value.

Your "best" offer for Ryan is substantially less than Richards or Carter returned. I think that would be a tough sell for Anaheim.

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06-20-2012, 09:06 AM
  #304
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Ryan for Schenn + Mezz + Prospect (don't care who prefer to hold onto cousins but not deal breaker)

or

Nash for JVR + Read + Bob + Prospect

Those deals are fair and I would like to see what other teams would give that would beat them.

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06-20-2012, 12:37 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey View Post
Ryan for Schenn + Mezz + Prospect (don't care who prefer to hold onto cousins but not deal breaker)

or

Nash for JVR + Read + Bob + Prospect

Those deals are fair and I would like to see what other teams would give that would beat them.
They are both about fair, if the option was to pick which of those two deals I would take Nash. Not ready to move Schenn yet and losing Mezz makes the already porous defense worse. I think Ryan coming on the market now makes Columbus willing to accept less. The Flyers or any other organization can now balk their offers with Ryan as a backup option during negotiations. Nash doesn't want to play in Columbus, Ryan has yet express that same sentiment and is just on the block.

Nash will be cheaper to get and is a better player and plays LW, a much more valued position.

If Ryan is one they want then I would not move JVR. A line of JVR-Giroux-Ryan could be a great combination (G and the Jersey Boys). Very hesitant about moving Schenn but if its between Couturier and Schenn I'm moving Schenn 10/10

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06-20-2012, 12:51 PM
  #306
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What the hell is with peoples obsession with making the big deal.

There is nothing wrong with the make-up of the team at the moment. Why not go hard after a defenseman to round off the D corps.

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06-20-2012, 01:06 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
What the hell is with peoples obsession with making the big deal.

There is nothing wrong with the make-up of the team at the moment. Why not go hard after a defenseman to round off the D corps.
because it's what's expected anymore

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06-20-2012, 01:07 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
What the hell is with peoples obsession with making the big deal.

There is nothing wrong with the make-up of the team at the moment. Why not go hard after a defenseman to round off the D corps.
It's what we are used to

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06-20-2012, 01:08 PM
  #309
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It's called facts.

Last 5 seasons.

79 points in 78 games
67 points in 76 games
66 points in 75 games
59 points in 82 games

But I'm sure you are going to have some excuse for him, right?

We don't know what he is going to do. You are assuming that his numbers are depressed due to playing on a poor team (funny how that doesn't hold someone like Tavares back) and that he will improve by playing beside Giroux. Except you don't really know that. It's just your assumption and hope. It's also ignoring the history of scorers in the league. That they tend to experience their decline at this stage of their careers.

What if 30 goals and 60 points is Nash's true talent level? That's a good hockey player, but is it worth nearly $8M a year? Is it much better than where JVR projects to be?

What about Giroux? If you acquire Nash and his salary and he sees an inferior player making more money than him what is he going to think when his contract is up? Is he going to happily take less? Or will he rightfully want to be the highest paid player on the team?

The Flyers had the 2nd best offense in the league last year. Primary scoring is an issue? Yes, some of their players had career years and Jagr will be gone, but their offense isn't going to suddenly dry up.
Oh this again. All stats are facts without context, and all context are excuses without facts? What a brilliant way to go through life. Tavares is your new target this time? Moulson and PA Parenteau >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brassard and whoever else Rick Nash got stuck with this season. They're also two completely different players. You can't just say "THIS GREAT PLAYER IS BETTER THAN THIS GREAT PLAYER"....players excel at different things. Why I have to explain this to you each time is mind-boggling.

I think Giroux will use his brain and realize the kind of superstar he has on his wing, and realize he was overpaid by a bad team to keep him around long term.

Like I've said for a week, if Ryan or Kane are available (now both Kane's are supposedly available), I'd prefer them over Nash. But continuing to listen to the simple-minded statistical approach to Rick Nash and his supposed decline is taking years off my life.

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06-20-2012, 01:10 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
What the hell is with peoples obsession with making the big deal.

There is nothing wrong with the make-up of the team at the moment. Why not go hard after a defenseman to round off the D corps.
Just speculation on the players on the trading block to discuss until something actually happens if anything. Also could have something to do with a weak free agent class of defensemen and that their haven't been a lot of rumblings of blue liners on the trading block.

I don't think its that outlandish to want Giroux to have someone who is just as big of a scoring threat as him on his line. If Suter was interested in coming here then that would be where all of my personal want would be, but hes not and we are going to end up having quite a bit of cap room.

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06-20-2012, 01:21 PM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
What the hell is with peoples obsession with making the big deal.

There is nothing wrong with the make-up of the team at the moment. Why not go hard after a defenseman to round off the D corps.
There is lots wrong with it, but a big splashy deal like Nash/Ryan isn't going to fix the problems.

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06-20-2012, 01:25 PM
  #312
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JVR - Giroux - Voracek
Simmonds - Schenn - Briere
Read - Couturier - Jagr/FA whatever
Rinaldo - Talbot - Sestito/holmstrom

Mezaros - Timonen
Coburn - Grossman
Carle(FA) - Gustaffson

outside of the bottom pairing in defense, thats still a play-off team without making a trade, and while adding a possible defensive prospect through the draft.

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06-20-2012, 01:48 PM
  #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieGirl
There is lots wrong with it, but a big splashy deal like Nash/Ryan isn't going to fix the problems.
Agreed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
JVR - Giroux - Voracek
Simmonds - Schenn - Briere
Read - Couturier - Jagr/FA whatever
Rinaldo - Talbot - Sestito/holmstrom

Mezaros - Timonen
Coburn - Grossman
Carle(FA) - Gustaffson

outside of the bottom pairing in defense, thats still a play-off team without making a trade, and while adding a possible defensive prospect through the draft.

Also agreed. I don't know why everyone is tossing around Voracek, Schenn, JvR like peanuts trying to nab these highly-paid wingers, when offense isn't our problem. Would it be nice to have Rick Nash or Bobby Ryan on Giroux's wing? Hell yea it would be awesome. Does that mean I'm rushing to find a combination of these young players to pry them away from Columbus or anaheim? No I am not.

With the current make-up of the team, I think it would be very stupid to trade a combination of these cheap forwards with potential for Nash or Ryan. This is a high scoring team already, with issues with defensive responsibility and goalie play. If we stood pat, or signed a few cheap 3rd pairing responsible defensemen, we probably are still a top 4 team in the East, and have as good a shot as anyone to make the Finals.

The one glaring hole this team has is a #1 defenseman (aside from a reliable goaltender, but let's be serious we need Bryz to be that goalie because he isn't going anywhere).

Remember when everybody was really excited when we got Voracek and had dreams of a Voracek-Giroux-JvR line for the next 10 years? Well I don't know what happened to them.

Voracek was extremely impressive to me in both the regular season and the playoffs. He showed skilled puck possession ability both in open ice and along the boards, with great vision and creativity. With the further development of his finishing ability, and the natural progression of his game, I imagine him as a lock for at least 20-40-60, and see him topping out at 25-40-75. He's 22, I want that guy on my team.

JvR was a huge dissapointment this year, there is no doubt about that. But bad off years happen. He had a few freak injuries and never hit his stride throughout the entire season. His value is at its lowest it has ever been in his professional career. Why don't we give him another year to redevelop his value and possibly turn into the player we were all hoping for?

Schenn was the centerpiece of the Mike Richards deal, injuries derailed the beginning of his season, but he looked strong towards the end of the regular season and in the playoffs. The kid is 20, and has one of the best prospect pedigrees this team has ever had. Championship teams are built down the center of the ice, and why we would trade a 20 year old center with all the potential in the world that was the centerpiece of the Mike Richards deal is beyond me.


The fact of the matter is the only thing that is going to take this team to the next level and make us a true Stanley Cup contender is solid goalie play and an impact #1 defenseman. Trading Schenn/JvR/Voracek for Rick Nash or Bobby Ryan improves neither of those things. The Flyers will still make a run at the cup this year, and can do that without trading all their young assets. Next year we will have a boatload of cap space and hopefully the UFA class is better than this year.

The best strategy for this team as it is currently constructed is patience, I seriously hope the front office realizes this. Why sell low on all these guys?

Imagine this after next year (very realistic scenarios):

Voracek could be a 23 year old, cheap, 60 points winger = a ton of value
Schenn could be a 21 year old, cheap, 50-60 point scorer = a ton of value
JvR could be a 23 year old 30 goal scorer signed for the next 5 years cheap = a ton of value

A trade with a combination of those players made today has the potential to go horribly wrong for the Flyers because we lacked the patience to give these guys time to develop.


Last edited by Schenn10: 06-20-2012 at 01:57 PM.
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06-20-2012, 02:21 PM
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Oh this again. All stats are facts without context, and all context are excuses without facts? What a brilliant way to go through life. Tavares is your new target this time? Moulson and PA Parenteau >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brassard and whoever else Rick Nash got stuck with this season. They're also two completely different players. You can't just say "THIS GREAT PLAYER IS BETTER THAN THIS GREAT PLAYER"....players excel at different things. Why I have to explain this to you each time is mind-boggling.

I think Giroux will use his brain and realize the kind of superstar he has on his wing, and realize he was overpaid by a bad team to keep him around long term.

Like I've said for a week, if Ryan or Kane are available (now both Kane's are supposedly available), I'd prefer them over Nash. But continuing to listen to the simple-minded statistical approach to Rick Nash and his supposed decline is taking years off my life.
"Whoever else Rick Nash got stuck with this season." His name was Jeff Carter and he is a superior player to Moulson and Paranteau. Nash was not any better when he had talent to play with, but I'm sure you'll have your next excuse ready.

I think comparing Nash to other great players is completely relevant when he is being paid as one of the league's elite. For nearly $8M I expect a player to make players around him better like Tavares. I don't expect him to need another elite player to make him look good.

Simple-minded statistical approach? In other words you hate any facts that blow up your argument. Since you are certain he will improve how about coming up with a list of forwards that improved from the ages 28-33? I'm not talking a player that has a career year in there, but improved on a regular basis? Let's see how likely it really is.

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06-20-2012, 02:52 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
"Whoever else Rick Nash got stuck with this season." His name was Jeff Carter and he is a superior player to Moulson and Paranteau. Nash was not any better when he had talent to play with, but I'm sure you'll have your next excuse ready.

I think comparing Nash to other great players is completely relevant when he is being paid as one of the league's elite. For nearly $8M I expect a player to make players around him better like Tavares. I don't expect him to need another elite player to make him look good.

Simple-minded statistical approach? In other words you hate any facts that blow up your argument. Since you are certain he will improve how about coming up with a list of forwards that improved from the ages 28-33? I'm not talking a player that has a career year in there, but improved on a regular basis? Let's see how likely it really is.
Yes pouty Jeff Carter, two snipers playing on the same line together, one of them not wanting to play for his team...that'll mean major statistical increases! Again, your failure to understand this is incredible, so brace yourself --- Tavares is the type of player who makes players around him better. Nash is not. His linemates may leech some points off of him when he scores...but Nash needs a guy setting him up. I'm pretty sure I've told you this 4 other times in this month long argument we've had, and you either refuse to read it, refuse to believe it, or don't understand that's how hockey works. Next you'll try the Ilya Kovalchuk argument again, I'm sure.

Your "facts" haven't blown up any of my arguments But keep thinkin there Butch, that's what you're good at. Keep rolling out your "facts" and I'll keep rolling out my "excuses"...they're excuses because they don't agree with your argument, that's how HF works, right?

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06-20-2012, 02:56 PM
  #316
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Actually neither Nash or Carter wants to play for the CBJ

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06-20-2012, 03:03 PM
  #317
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Actually neither Nash or Carter wants to play for the CBJ
I don't agree with Nash, he just doesn't want to play for Scott Howson. I'm quite sure he wants to see that team and city succeed, and prefers to be a part of it.

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06-20-2012, 04:04 PM
  #318
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I don't agree with Nash, he just doesn't want to play for Scott Howson. I'm quite sure he wants to see that team and city succeed, and prefers to be a part of it.
Agreed. I actually feel bad for a guy like Nash even though he's overpaid. All players want to be in a spot where they feel like they can win. I think he was holding out for a new management team when he signed that extension. It's gotten to the point where it's quite clear that they're just as far away from contention as they were when he was drafted. He's getting to an age where he would have to be concerned about actually getting a shot to play for the cup.

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06-20-2012, 04:16 PM
  #319
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I'm for any deal that is going to cut down on the GAA and not mortgage the future or give up Giroux or Couturier.

Maybe we could hypnotize Lidstrom out of retirement.

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06-20-2012, 04:19 PM
  #320
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I cannot wait until Nash is traded somewhere else. Sorry, don't want him here.

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06-20-2012, 04:54 PM
  #321
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Agreed.





Also agreed. I don't know why everyone is tossing around Voracek, Schenn, JvR like peanuts trying to nab these highly-paid wingers, when offense isn't our problem. Would it be nice to have Rick Nash or Bobby Ryan on Giroux's wing? Hell yea it would be awesome. Does that mean I'm rushing to find a combination of these young players to pry them away from Columbus or anaheim? No I am not.

With the current make-up of the team, I think it would be very stupid to trade a combination of these cheap forwards with potential for Nash or Ryan. This is a high scoring team already, with issues with defensive responsibility and goalie play. If we stood pat, or signed a few cheap 3rd pairing responsible defensemen, we probably are still a top 4 team in the East, and have as good a shot as anyone to make the Finals.

The one glaring hole this team has is a #1 defenseman (aside from a reliable goaltender, but let's be serious we need Bryz to be that goalie because he isn't going anywhere).

Remember when everybody was really excited when we got Voracek and had dreams of a Voracek-Giroux-JvR line for the next 10 years? Well I don't know what happened to them.

Voracek was extremely impressive to me in both the regular season and the playoffs. He showed skilled puck possession ability both in open ice and along the boards, with great vision and creativity. With the further development of his finishing ability, and the natural progression of his game, I imagine him as a lock for at least 20-40-60, and see him topping out at 25-40-75. He's 22, I want that guy on my team.

JvR was a huge dissapointment this year, there is no doubt about that. But bad off years happen. He had a few freak injuries and never hit his stride throughout the entire season. His value is at its lowest it has ever been in his professional career. Why don't we give him another year to redevelop his value and possibly turn into the player we were all hoping for?

Schenn was the centerpiece of the Mike Richards deal, injuries derailed the beginning of his season, but he looked strong towards the end of the regular season and in the playoffs. The kid is 20, and has one of the best prospect pedigrees this team has ever had. Championship teams are built down the center of the ice, and why we would trade a 20 year old center with all the potential in the world that was the centerpiece of the Mike Richards deal is beyond me.


The fact of the matter is the only thing that is going to take this team to the next level and make us a true Stanley Cup contender is solid goalie play and an impact #1 defenseman. Trading Schenn/JvR/Voracek for Rick Nash or Bobby Ryan improves neither of those things. The Flyers will still make a run at the cup this year, and can do that without trading all their young assets. Next year we will have a boatload of cap space and hopefully the UFA class is better than this year.

The best strategy for this team as it is currently constructed is patience, I seriously hope the front office realizes this. Why sell low on all these guys?

Imagine this after next year (very realistic scenarios):

Voracek could be a 23 year old, cheap, 60 points winger = a ton of value
Schenn could be a 21 year old, cheap, 50-60 point scorer = a ton of value
JvR could be a 23 year old 30 goal scorer signed for the next 5 years cheap = a ton of value

A trade with a combination of those players made today has the potential to go horribly wrong for the Flyers because we lacked the patience to give these guys time to develop.
You are my new favourite poster.

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06-20-2012, 05:52 PM
  #322
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Figured I'd place this here to prevent making another thread.

If Holmgren swings and misses at Nash/Ryan, would he have any interest in Vanek?

If so, what do you guys think he'd offer up?

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06-20-2012, 06:17 PM
  #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
JVR - Giroux - Voracek
Simmonds - Schenn - Briere
Read - Couturier - Jagr/FA whatever
Rinaldo - Talbot - Sestito/holmstrom

Mezaros - Timonen
Coburn - Grossman
Carle(FA) - Gustaffson

outside of the bottom pairing in defense, thats still a play-off team without making a trade, and while adding a possible defensive prospect through the draft.
What happened to Fartnell?

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06-20-2012, 07:06 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
What the hell is with peoples obsession with making the big deal.

There is nothing wrong with the make-up of the team at the moment. Why not go hard after a defenseman to round off the D corps.

Wow a flyer fan with an ounce of sanity and intelligence. Thanks for posting this I thought I was the only one....


Let's trade half the effing team for two star forwards after we traded two star players for the guys we wanna trade now... Real awesome. Yet something that jackass Holmgren would do.


All while our defense is crippled and weak. Keeeeeep ignoring that...

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06-20-2012, 07:08 PM
  #325
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Giroux and Briere shared the goal scoring lead in the playoffs with carter and kopitar and played in less than half the games. But we want more offense. Smh

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