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Red Wings penalty ratios at season 2011-12

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06-20-2012, 06:38 AM
  #1
Henkka
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Red Wings penalty ratios at season 2011-12

I collided to these things when I was looking some stats from behindthenet.ca and found it would be interesting to take these out for people to see. As we know, the penalty minutes are easy to check from players stats, but nobody really knows, who draws those penalties against the opponents. This is IMO very interesting data.

Penalties taken per 60min ice-time:

Forwards:
1. Fabian Brunnström 1.3
2. Todd Bertuzzi 1.3
3. Tomas Holmström 1.0
4. Justin Abdelkader 0.9
5. Jiri Hudler 0.9
6. Cory Emmerton 0.8
7. Johan Franzen 0.7
8. Patrick Eaves 0.7
9. Dan Cleary 0.5
10. Henrik Zetterberg 0.5
11. Drew Miller 0.4
12. Valtteri Filppula 0.4
13. Darren Helm 0.4
14. Gustav Nyquist 0.3
15. Pavel Datsyuk 0.2
16. Jan Mursak 0.0
17. Joakim Andersson 0.0
18. Chris Conner 0.0

Defence:
1. Kyle Quincey 1.6
2. Doug Janik 1.5
3. Jonathan Ericsson 1.3
4. Brendan Smith 1.3
5. Niklas Kronwall 0.8
6. Jakub Kindl 0.6
7. Nicklas Lidström 0.6
8. Brad Stuart 0.4
9. Ian White 0.4

Penalties drawn per 60min ice-time:

Forwards:
1. Darren Helm 2.1
2. Joakim Andersson 1.8
3. Justin Abdelkader 1.5
4. Fabian Brunnström 1.3
5. Tomas Holmström 1.3
6. Cory Emmerton 1.2
7. Pavel Datsyuk 1.0
8. Johan Franzen 0.7
9. Henrik Zetterberg 0.7
10. Drew Miller 0.7
11. Valtteri Filppula 0.7
12. Gustav Nyquist 0.7
13. Jan Mursak 0.6
14. Todd Bertuzzi 0.6
15. Jiri Hudler 0.6
16. Dan Cleary 0.5
17. Patrick Eaves 0.0
18. Chris Conner 0.0

Defence:
1. Brendan Smith 1.6
2. Jakub Kindl 0.7
3. Doug Janik 0.5
4. Jonathan Ericsson 0.5
5. Niklas Kronwall 0.5
6. Brad Stuart 0.5
7. Kyle Quincey 0.4
8. Ian White 0.3
9. Nicklas Lidström 0.0

Penalties drawn/taken "plus-minus":

Forwards:
1. Joakim Andersson 1.8 - 0.0 = +1.8
2. Darren Helm 2.1 - 0.4 = +1.7
3. Pavel Datsyuk 1.0 - 0.2 = +0.8
4. Justin Abdelkader 1.5 - 0.9 = +0.6
5. Jan Mursak 0.6 - 0.0 = +0.6
6. Cory Emmerton 1.2 - 0.8 = +0.4
7. Gustav Nyquist 0.7 - 0.3 = +0.4
8. Tomas Holmström 1.3 - 1.0 = +0.3
9. Drew Miller 0.7 - 0.4 = +0.3
10. Valtteri Filppula 0.7 - 0.4 = +0.3
11. Henrik Zetterberg 0.7 - 0.5 = +0.2
12. Fabian Brunnström 1.3 - 1.3 = 0.0
13. Johan Franzen 0.7 - 0.7 = 0.0
14. Dan Cleary 0.5 - 0.5 = 0.0
15. Chris Conner 0.0 - 0.0 = 0.0
------------------------------
16. Jiri Hudler 0.6 - 0.9 = -0.3
17. Patrick Eaves 0.0 - 0.6 = -0.6
18. Todd Bertuzzi 0.6 - 1.3 = -0.7

Defence:
1. Brendan Smith 1.6 - 1.3 = +0.3
2. Brad Stuart 0.5 - 0.4 = +0.1
3. Jakub Kindl 0.7 - 0.6 = +0.1
-----------------------------
4. Ian White 0.3 - 0.4 = -0.1
5. Niklas Kronwall 0.5 - 0.8 = -0.3
6. Nicklas Lidström 0.0 - 0.6 = -0.6
7. Jonathan Ericsson 0.5 - 1.3 = -0.8
8. Doug Janik 0.5 - 1.5 = -1.0
9. Kyle Quincey 0.4 - 1.6 = -1.2

So, what conclusions can we make of these?

These values give some hidden positive or negative value for some players. Darren Helm is maybe the league best player getting his team on the power-play. And what makes it special, he is a 3rd liner. Usually, when you take a penalty against a star player, your 1st line was out and they are exhausted starting to the power-play, or the coach has to use his 2nd PP. But when Helm draws the penalty, we always have rested 1st PP to put in the ice. Helm was at league Top2 with his +1.7 "+/-" value with Jeff Skinner (of players who played +50 games).

Joakim Andersson had higher +1.8 value, but his game sample is maybe too small to make greater conclusions. I don't know how he does that, but it's nothing but a good sign. Hopefully it continues in the future seasons.

What cathed in the eye from the bad boys side, Todd Bertuzzi is really the biggest problem penalty-vise. He takes them more than any other forward and does not drawn them very much. Like Holmström (1.0) and Abdelkader (0.9) take much penalties, but they also draw them more than they take, to have the the positive total. That a plus for them, of course. Hudler and Eaves were the only other forwards at negative side and it isn't a good sign for Hudler. He draws a mediocre value, but takes too many, and I don't know why. Maybe just because he is so slow. Like Bertuzzi. I think the injuries and small sample size affected to Patrick Eaves numbers, so I woudn't do any conclusions about him so far. At last season he was drawn +1.0 - taken 0.7 = +0.3, quite good value.

At defence, it looks like Brad Stuart did very good job. Kyle Quincey is the worst, but here are also his Colorado stats involved. But he was horrible with us, no one can deny it. Hopefully the one long summer and better adapting to Wings system will help him.

What was really odd, what that there was only one(!) penalty against Nicklas Lidström during last regular season in his 70 games played. Does that come from reputation from other players, or is it just his effectiveness, that he is so good, that nobody does not even want to try to go against him to steal the puck or something?

Very interesting thing.


And if somebody is worried about Alex Semin's values, here they are: drawn 1.2 - taken 0.7 = +0.5. He would be a decent upgrade for Hudler, also from penalty aspect.


Last edited by Henkka: 06-20-2012 at 06:45 AM.
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Old
06-20-2012, 06:48 AM
  #2
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Cool, thanks for putting this together! I agree the data sample is too small for Joakim Andersson but I think he's got a great shot at locking down the 4th line center spot this upcoming season. As far as Bert and Abby go, it is no shock they take a bunch of bad penalties. I think I'd seen somewhere else that Helm draws a ton of penalties so it's good to see it again. If he's on a line with Bert maybe that will help to neutralize some of those bad penalties Bertuzzi takes.

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06-20-2012, 08:31 AM
  #3
Henkka
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Values from some interesting names:

Rick Nash +1.9 - 0.6 = +1.3
Zach Parise +1.4 - 0.5 = +0.9
Jaromir Jagr +1.1 - 0.7 = +0.4
Brandon Prust +1.1 - 0.9 = +0.2
Mikael Samuelsson +0.9 - 0.7 = +0.2

Jarret Stoll +0.4 - 1.7 = -1.3

I really don't know is it good try to sign Stoll, to be a penalty killing faceoff guy, when he is on the pbox...

Some perspective to compare to other teams:
Best penalty drawers per team:

ANA
Best - Teemu Selänne +1.3 - 0.6 = +0.7
Worst - Toni Lydman +0.2 - 1.1 = -0.9

BOS
Best - Patrice Bergeron +1.0 - 0.4 = +0.6
Worst - Nathan Horton +0.4 - 1.4 = -1.0

BUF
Best - Cody Hodgson +1.0 - 0.3 = +0.7
Worst - Mike Weber +0.4 - 0.9 = -0.5

CAR
Best - Jeff Skinner +2.5 - 0.8 = +1.7 (NHL greatest value with Darren Helm)
Worst - Bryan Allen +0.2 - 1.2 = -1.0

CBJ
Best - Rick Nash +1.9 - 0.6 = +1.3
Worst - Marc Methot +0.1 - 0.9 = -0.8

CGY
Best - Michael Cammalleri +1.1 - 0.5 = +0.6
Worst - Cory Sarich +0.4 - 1.1 = -0.7

CHI
Best - Marian Hossa +1.1 - 0.3 = +0.8
Worst - Dan Carcillo +1.2 - 2.3 = -1.1

COL
Best - Matt Duchene +1.4 - 0.3 = +1.1
Worst - Cody McLeod +0.6 - 1.8 = -1.2

DAL
Best - Vernon Fiddler +1.6 - 1.0 = +0.6
Worst - Sheldon Souray +0.2 - 1.4 = -1.2

DET
Best - Darren Helm +2.1 - 0.4 = +1.7
Worst - Kyle Quincey +0.4 - 1.6 = -1.2

EDM
Best - Magnus Pääjärvi-Svensson +1.0 - 0.2 = +0.8
Worst - Andy Sutton +0.2 - 1.9 = -1.7

FLO
Best - Tim Kennedy +1.3 - 0.4 = +0.9
Worst - Krystofer Barch +0.3 - 2.6 = -2.3

LAK
Best - Dustin Brown +2.2 - 0.9 = +1.3
Worst - Jarret Stoll +0.4 - 1.7 = -1.3

MIN
Best - Devin Setoguchi +1.0 - 0.6 = +0.4
Worst - Kurtis Foster +0.1 - 1.1 = -1.0

MON
Best - Aaron Palushaj +2.1 - 0.8 = +1.3
Worst - Tomas Plekanec +0.5 - 1.3 = -0.8

NJD
Best - Zach Parise +1.4 - 0.5 = +0.9
Worst - Eric Boulton +0.5 - 1.8 = -1.3

NSH
Best - Patric Hörnqvist +1.6 - 0.4 = +1.2
Worst - Brian McGrattan +0.4 - 1.5 = -1.1

NYI
Best - John Tavares +1.5 - 0.4 = +1.1
Worst - Steve Staios +0.4 - 1.3 = -0.9

NYR
Best - Ryan Callahan +1.4 - 0.8 = +0.6
Worst - Stu Bickel +0.3 -1.3 = -1.0

OTT
Best - Zach Smith +1.4 - 1.0 = +0.4
Worst - Zenon Konopka +1.0 - 2.7 = -1.7

PHI
Best - Harry Zolnierczyk +2.2 - 1.1 = +1.1
Worst - Andreas Lilja +0.4 - 1.6 = -1.2

PHX
Best - Mikkel Bödker +0.9 - 0.3 = +0.6
Worst - Derek Morris +0.3 - 1.1 = -0.8

PIT
Best - Evgeni Malkin +1.9 - 1.1 = +0.8
Special - Sidney Crosby +0.8 - 1.0 = -0.2
Worst - Matt Niskanen +0.2 - 0.9 = -0.7

SJS
Best - Tommy Wingels +1.6 - 0.3 = +1.3
Worst - Brad Winchester +0.8 - 1.9 = -1.1

STL
Best - Chris Porter +1.1 - 0.3 = +0.8
Worst - Brandon Crombeen +0.4 - 1.3 = -0.9

TBL
Best - Martin St. Louis +0.9 - 0.3 = +0.6
Worst - Mike Commodore +0.2 - 1.4 = -1.2

TOR
Best - Joey Crabb +0.8 - 0.5 = +0.3
Worst - Jay Rosehill +1.0 - 3.3 = -2.3

VAN
Best - Maxim Lapierre +1.1 - 0.8 = +0.3
Worst - Andrew Alberts +0.3 - 1.1 = -0.8

Special one:
Henrik Sedin +0.9 - 1.1 = -0.2 (can't those freaking Sedin's differ at any stat)
Daniel Sedin +0.6 - 0.8 = -0.2 (but still quite interesting that they take more than draw)

WSH
Best - Alex Ovechkin +1.2 - 0.5 = +0.7
Worst - Jay Beagle +0.4 - 1.2 = -0.8

WPG
Best - Evander Kane +1.5 - 1.0 = +0.5
Worst - Dustin Byfuglien +0.2 - 1.0 = -0.8

So the league best ratio for forward were Darren Helm and Jeff Skinner (+1.7). Best defenceman was Nashville's Ryan Ellis with +1.2 - 0.3 = +0.9 value.

The league worst forward was Jay Rosehill (-2.3). Defenceman with worst ratio was Andy Sutton (-1.7).


Last edited by Henkka: 06-20-2012 at 08:46 AM.
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Old
06-20-2012, 08:34 AM
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On the flip side, Bert taking a bad penalty could just as easily result in Helm losing his chance to draw one.

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06-20-2012, 08:38 AM
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Henkka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borlag View Post
On the flip side, Bert taking a bad penalty could just as easily result in Helm losing his chance to draw one.
Or when Bert takes the bad penalty, we go short-handed and Helm draws the penalty and turns it to 4-on-4.

Quote:
Darren Helm is maybe the league best player getting his team on the power-play. And what makes it special, he is a 3rd liner. Usually, when you take a penalty against a star player, your 1st line was out and they are exhausted starting to the power-play, or the coach has to use his 2nd PP. But when Helm draws the penalty, we always have rested 1st PP to put in the ice.
These are huge momentum changes what Helm does.

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06-20-2012, 08:47 AM
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Great job compiling these stats. Just wondering, are fights included?

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06-20-2012, 08:50 AM
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A great read. Thanks Henkka.

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06-20-2012, 09:11 AM
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i don't need stats to know that bertuzzi sucks.

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06-20-2012, 09:31 AM
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This is very interesting, thanks for putting it together.

I'm guessing fights are included, but for the most part they cancel out in the +/- because most of the time it's taking 5 and drawing 5.

And while I'm looking at this I'm catching myself thinking "wow, Rick Nash is a +1.3, may we should go out and try to make a big play to get him". So while this is a cool stat, I've got to remember that this is just 1 stat out of a million different stats and doesn't define a player. I'd also imagine a bigger sample size for more than 1 season to see if players maintain the average since it would seem drawing penalties is somewhat random

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06-20-2012, 10:03 AM
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Interesting analysis. I'm not shocked though. Holmstrom for example takes a lot of idiotic penalties, but draws a lot because the opposing team is always trying to beat the **** out of him.

Helm draws penalties more times than not because of his speed.

Guys like Quincey and Bert take lazy, useless penalties. No ****. Like Datsyuk says "If you don't stop working hard, you won't take penalties".

And you can still be a stay-at-home defenseman who clears the crease and gets some good hits without racking up huge PIM (see Brad Stuart).

I'd be interested in seeing the same analysis for some other teams like Philly.

Rinaldo = -20

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06-20-2012, 10:29 AM
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Good stuff Henkka.

Seems like around the league the guys with speed and/or a motor come out furthest ahead with the calls.

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06-20-2012, 10:46 AM
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Shoalzie
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Quincey, Ericsson, Bertuzzi...you pretty much associate them with taking the most penalties on this team. The information pretty much shows us a lot of stuff we already knew.

Helm is great drawing penalties with his speed. You'd associate guys that can skate or guys with a lot of skill and draw the attention the defense while on the ice as ones who draw penalties.

Interesting to see Nick as a minus but I think we saw this year more than ever than he showed his age at times and he would get nabbed for grabbing a guy. Stuart being a slight plus really told the story of how smart of a defender he was. He's probably a major negative with turning over the puck though.

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06-20-2012, 11:31 AM
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Defenseman stats are a bit skewed though, the only penalties they're going to take are boarding and other penalties where they don't "draw" the penalty as much as try to survive it. Adversely sometimes they take a penalty on purpose to stop a scoring chance etc.

Unless he's on the powerplay Nick wouldn't have been carrying the puck to draw a penalty.

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06-20-2012, 12:02 PM
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Henkka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opivy View Post
Defenseman stats are a bit skewed though, the only penalties they're going to take are boarding and other penalties where they don't "draw" the penalty as much as try to survive it. Adversely sometimes they take a penalty on purpose to stop a scoring chance etc.

Unless he's on the powerplay Nick wouldn't have been carrying the puck to draw a penalty.
Yes, it's more defining about defencemen good play, when they don't take a lot of penalties. Drawing them is just a plus.

It's kind of exact opposite for forwards. They draw mostly of the penalties, and avoid to take them is the just a plus.

But that "plus/minus" gives IMO guite good comparison numbers.

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06-20-2012, 12:24 PM
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'lets sign konopka'

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06-20-2012, 02:27 PM
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It's a shame you can't quatify and create a stat for reputation calls. Because you can't tell me Bert isn't unfairly watched like a hawk. He breaths on a guy and three out of four times he's going to be in the bin. It's a joke. Then you look at someone like Malkin and watch him play, and the guy hooks and holds all day and no one will ever call anything on him.

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06-20-2012, 03:28 PM
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Most of that is old news, but the fact that Abby is so high in the +/- is surprising to me. I knew he's a physical player who takes a lot of penalties, but it looks like he draws more than enough calls to make up for it. Good on him.

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