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Old
06-20-2012, 03:17 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Your omitting other possibilities of the play, the ones that I mentioned earlier. It doesn't kill offense. An offensive zone draw is a good offensive opportunity. Play the majority of time on the other teams end and most game, you'll come out on top. There is nothing bad that happens from getting the puck to the other team's net.
I'm not omitting those possibilities. I'm pointing out that the bad things I mentioned happen more when Carle is shooting it on net than when our other defensemen are. Bad things happening more often is well...bad.

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06-20-2012, 03:23 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
I'm not omitting those possibilities. I'm pointing out that the bad things I mentioned happen more when Carle is shooting it on net than when our other defensemen are. Bad things happening more often is well...bad.
There are are no bad things that happen when you shoot the puck on net. Zero!

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06-20-2012, 03:25 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
There are are no bad things that happen when you shoot the puck on net. Zero!
Sarcasm, kidding?

As mentioned previously - his inaccuracy and shin-finding point-shot often lead to turnovers and decreased time in the offensive zone.

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06-20-2012, 03:27 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
It absolutely is always a good play. Nothing bad happens from getting the puck to the net. Carle uses a slap shot when the time is there to use it. A wrist shot is more accurate, and is a good play. Carle doesn't just heave it on net first chance he gets. He makes smart plays overall. Carle doesn't have a great shot, so a wrister on net is a good play. It's better to put the puck on net if a defenseman is being pressured. The onus is on the forwards to get to the net, not the defenseman. It never really ends with you guys and Carle. It's amazing he's still in the League with all the bad plays he makes.
and the sun nevers sets on Carle-land according to you..

you'd think he was the show winner by your opinion on what he does game in game out..

funny how your pretty much the ONLY person here who defends him without fault..wonder why that is

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06-20-2012, 03:29 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
There are are no bad things that happen when you shoot the puck on net. Zero!
Except when you shoot it so softly that the goalie has no trouble smothering the puck, killing the play. Your team now has to take a faceoff, which it loses 52% of the time. When this is something that happens routinely that's bad.

That's only the shots that get to the net; that's without getting into all of his blocked shots that get taken out of the zone.

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06-20-2012, 03:40 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan4life View Post
and the sun nevers sets on Carle-land according to you..

you'd think he was the show winner by your opinion on what he does game in game out..

funny how your pretty much the ONLY person here who defends him without fault..wonder why that is
Your incorrect. I've talked many times about the weaknesses in Carle's game. There are very few NHL defenseman who possess all of the skills that you are looking for in an NHL defenseman. They all have their own blend of skillset. And they all have strengths and weaknesses. Carle is no different.

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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Except when you shoot it so softly that the goalie has no trouble smothering the puck, killing the play. Your team now has to take a faceoff, which it loses 52% of the time. When this is something that happens routinely that's bad.

That's only the shots that get to the net; that's without getting into all of his blocked shots that get taken out of the zone.
Getting an offensive zone draw is never a bad thing. And if the faceoff is lost, I doubt that's Carle's fault. Do you have any factual data to support this? That shows "all of his blocked shots that get taken out of the zone"? Or the data for other defenseman on attempts blocked to compare to Carle. I'd be glad to look at it and discuss it with you.

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06-20-2012, 03:56 PM
  #157
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Shooting the puck on net is never really a bad play, but it isn't always the best play you can make. Especially when you're Matt Carle since you have a horrible shot, and are a good passer.

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06-20-2012, 03:59 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Shooting the puck on net is never really a bad play, but it isn't always the best play you can make. Especially when you're Matt Carle since you have a horrible shot, and are a good passer.
That's true. No player makes the right choice all the time. But good players like Carle make the right play most of the time. Carle doesn't have a good shot, and is never going to have a good shot. That is a weakness in his game.

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06-20-2012, 04:02 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
That's true. No player makes the right choice all the time. But good players like Carle make the right play most of the time. Carle doesn't have a good shot, and is never going to have a good shot. That is a weakness in his game.
Because his shot is so bad, I wish he'd shoot wide on purpose more (like Kimmo does) in order to create some odd rebounds in front.

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06-20-2012, 04:04 PM
  #160
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Getting an offensive zone draw when your team is better off keeping up pressure, and when they lose more faceoffs than they win is NOT preferable. You're really doing backflips to try and defend Carle's flaws at this point. Your insistence on statistics to prove something that has been witnessed by lots of people numerous times over the last few years is laughable. We don't need to know exactly how many times it happens to know that we see it happening more with Carle than with other players. It's what happens when you have a bad shot. It's an established trend in Carle's game; it's practically a part of his playing style. It's Matt Carle, it's just who he is; we've seen more than enough of him to know who he is and what he can do.

On a side note, Coburn isn't much better. In his case he misses the net a lot. However, Coburn isn't supposed to be an offensive Dman. Being ranked 80th among defensemen for goals scored last season as an offensive Dman makes Carle look pretty crappy if you ask me...and it's not like he wasn't getting ice time. He got a lot of ice time, actually, and didn't do much with it compared to other defensemen. I feel like Carle is getting overrated by a lot of people because of the limited options on the market this offseason.

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06-20-2012, 04:16 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Getting an offensive zone draw when your team is better off keeping up pressure, and when they lose more faceoffs than they win is NOT preferable. You're really doing backflips to try and defend Carle's flaws at this point. Your insistence on statistics to prove something that has been witnessed by lots of people numerous times over the last few years is laughable. We don't need to know exactly how many times it happens to know that we see it happening more with Carle than with other players. It's what happens when you have a bad shot. It's an established trend in Carle's game; it's practically a part of his playing style. It's Matt Carle, it's just who he is; we've seen more than enough of him to know who he is and what he can do.

On a side note, Coburn isn't much better. In his case he misses the net a lot. However, Coburn isn't supposed to be an offensive Dman. Being ranked 80th among defensemen for goals scored last season as an offensive Dman makes Carle look pretty crappy if you ask me...and it's not like he wasn't getting ice time. He got a lot of ice time, actually, and didn't do much with it compared to other defensemen. I feel like Carle is getting overrated by a lot of people because of the limited options on the market this offseason.
Your insistance to make it up as you go along as far as Carle is concerned is what is laughable. I don't have to do any backflips to defend what is not real. Carle is no different then any other player. He is not perfect. He makes mistakes like any other player. And I know you don't like the facts when it comes to Carle, because they point out how you're wrong about Carle as a player.

And Carle being ranked 15th in the NHL in assists among all defenseman in the NHL in 11/12. And being ranked 12th among defenseman in the NHL in assists in 10/12, as well as leading all NHL defenseman in ES points. Make him look pretty dam good as an offensive defenseman. Not to mention his consistent 35-40 point totals the last 3 Seasons.

So based on those facts, which I know you don't like. It seems as though Carle did just fine compared to other defenseman. But when the facts don't support your opinion, just ignore them and pretend they don't exist.

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06-20-2012, 04:30 PM
  #162
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I'm not making anything up. I am telling you what I have seen from him over the years. I was a Carle fan and supporter when he started here; I gave him the benefit of the doubt for a year longer than many people. Carle's own play changed my mind as I saw him make the same mistakes or be plagued by the same flaws game after game for 4 years. Carle changed my mind about Carle, and he hasn't done a whole lot to change it back.

As for his assists? Color me unimpressed. Passing the puck to one of the best offenses in the league inflated those numbers. The guy can't score goals and is a liability on the PP. Plop him on another team and I guarantee his numbers drop.

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06-20-2012, 04:40 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
I'm not making anything up. I am telling you what I have seen from him over the years. I was a Carle fan and supporter when he started here; I gave him the benefit of the doubt for a year longer than many people. Carle's own play changed my mind as I saw him make the same mistakes or be plagued by the same flaws game after game for 4 years. Carle changed my mind about Carle, and he hasn't done a whole lot to change it back.

As for his assists? Color me unimpressed. Passing the puck to one of the best offenses in the league inflated those numbers. The guy can't score goals and is a liability on the PP. Plop him on another team and I guarantee his numbers drop.
What I can't understand is why Paul Holmgren, NHL scouts, analysts who cover the game and write about players, don't see what you see? How can that be that they have a different opinion of the player then you do? Are they watching a different player?

I've asked you before and I'll ask you again. Provide one, just one. Not multiple, but one credible source that agrees with your opinion of Carle as a player?

Oh and I forgot that Carle get's assists by accident. Just by being on a good offensive team. Because Carle's passing ability doesn't have anything to do with the team being good offensively. Honestly, is there anymore evidence needed then that of the bias you have against Carle? LOL

And no kidding his numbers would drop offensively if he was on a less offensive team. So would every other player in that situation! LOL

And he's a liability on the PP? Hysterical. Why do the Coaches play him there then? I know, they don't have anyone else. LMAO.

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06-20-2012, 04:51 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
What I can't understand is why Paul Holmgren, NHL scouts, analysts who cover the game and write about players, don't see what you see? How can that be that they have a different opinion of the player then you do? Are they watching a different player?

I've asked you before and I'll ask you again. Provide one, just one. Not multiple, but one credible source that agrees with your opinion of Carle as a player?

Oh and I forgot that Carle get's assists by accident. Just by being on a good offensive team. Because Carle's passing ability doesn't have anything to do with the team being good offensively. Honestly, is there anymore evidence needed then that of the bias you have against Carle? LOL

And no kidding his numbers would drop offensively if he was on a less offensive team. So would every other player in that situation! LOL

And he's a liability on the PP? Hysterical. Why do the Coaches play him there then? I know, they don't have anyone else. LMAO.
It's rare to find sources dedicated to criticizing players, especially second pairing defensemen. And as I've said before: just because the media says something, doesn't make it true. They aren't flawless gods among men. Many of them in the field outside the Flyers media doesn't watch as much of the Flyers as we do. Many in the Flyers media are total idiots. Here, let's try this: Find me a single guy in the media who will tell you that a defensemen who doesn't play physically, is prone to positional mistakes, can't/won't clear the crease, and is prone to terrible unforced turnovers is a good thing to have on the ice 23 minutes a night. Find me a single media member who wouldn't recommend trying to find an alternative to that. The majority of articles being written are praising someone. Very few exist which tear players down for their flaws...does that mean those flaws don't exist?

He gets played on the PP because there is nobody else who can be put out there. It was out of necessity. He has no shot, which is a bad thing to have on your blue line. You laugh about it, but it's true. Responding to that with some pre-teen "lmao" doesn't change that reality.

This team has the offensive skill to continue producing at a high rate without Carle. If you think he is the cog that drives this team's scoring, your bias is blinding.

Carle is what he is: a decent player who is being relied on too heavily by the Flyers, and who gets grossly overrated by you. He needs to be on a pairing in a secondary role. A team that has Carle in a major defensive role is a team that has serious issues...especially if they have to pay him at an inflated rate because they have no other choices and the market is thin.

I'm done with this, until you're willing to look at Carle in a realistic light and realize there is more wrong with him than his bad shot. Listening to you, he's one of the top defensemen in the league and has only one flaw. That's wrong.


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06-20-2012, 04:55 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Why do the Coaches play him there then? I know, they don't have anyone else. LMAO.
the only thing that makes sense on why the flyers are supposedly high on carle and playing him alot even though he stinks because of his value? i mean the flyers dont alot of value accept for jvr, schenn and couts, they do not want to get rid of schenn and couts, so if jvr carle, and bob are the only valuable players on this team, maybe they can give us leverage on fixing defense and offense.

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06-20-2012, 05:05 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
What I can't understand is why Paul Holmgren, NHL scouts, analysts who cover the game and write about players, don't see what you see? How can that be that they have a different opinion of the player then you do? Are they watching a different player?

I've asked you before and I'll ask you again. Provide one, just one. Not multiple, but one credible source that agrees with your opinion of Carle as a player?

Oh and I forgot that Carle get's assists by accident. Just by being on a good offensive team. Because Carle's passing ability doesn't have anything to do with the team being good offensively. Honestly, is there anymore evidence needed then that of the bias you have against Carle? LOL

And no kidding his numbers would drop offensively if he was on a less offensive team. So would every other player in that situation! LOL

And he's a liability on the PP? Hysterical. Why do the Coaches play him there then? I know, they don't have anyone else. LMAO.
Just want to point out that being a member of the media or a GM doesn't make you correct. Mike Milbury was a GM and is currently a member of the media. Timmeh and Carchidi or however you spell his name are members of the media. All 3 of them could be replaced by certain HFBoards members and do a much better job.

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06-20-2012, 05:06 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
It's rare to find sources dedicated to criticizing players, especially second pairing defensemen. And as I've said before: just because the media says something, doesn't make it true. They aren't flawless gods among men. Many of them in the field outside the Flyers media doesn't watch as much of the Flyers as we do. Many in the Flyers media are total idiots. Here, let's try this: Find me a single guy in the media who will tell you that a defensemen who doesn't play physically, is prone to positional mistakes, can't/won't clear the crease, and is prone to terrible unforced turnovers is a good thing to have on the ice 23 minutes a night. Find me a single media member who wouldn't recommend trying to find an alternative to that.
You make my point. If Carle is all the things you say he is, why isn't anyone saying it? None of them are willing to professionally and politelyucriticize the player, and analyze his play as such? If he's truly as bad as you say he is? Your really grasping here. And a media source doesn't have to be dedicated to criticizing players. What are you talking about? LOL.
Forget about the Media. Let's talk about the Coaches. Why do they play a defensemen who doesn't play physically, is prone to positional mistakes, can't/won't clear the crease, and is prone to terrible unforced turnovers is a good thing to have on the ice 23 minutes a night? Why do they want him back?

I'll tell you why you can't find a media source to back up your opinion of Carle. And why the Coaches play him 23 minutes a night. Because you're simply wrong about Carle. And I've given you and other Carle detractors, every opportunity over the course of several months, to prove that what you say about Carle is factual. You can't do it. Why because you're all wrong.

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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
He gets played on the PP because there is nobody else who can be put out there. It was out of necessity. He has no shot, which is a bad thing to have on your blue line.

This team has the offensive skill to continue producing at a high rate without Carle. If you think he is the cog that drives this team's scoring, your bias is blinding.
Just as I predicted. Carle plays on the PP because they don't have anyone else to. Guess what, if they do re-sign Carle, he will continue to play on the PP. Why because he handles and passes the puck well. And I've said repeatedly, that Carle doesn't have a good shot and that is a definite weakness to his game.

And if you think that I've said anywhere, or even came remotely close to stating that Carle is the cog that drives this team's scoring. Then you seeing things. Because I've never came close to stating that.


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Carle is what he is: a decent player who is being relied on too heavily by the Flyers. He needs to be on a pairing in a secondary role. A team that has Carle in a major offensive role is a team that has serious issues...especially if they have to pay him at an inflated rate because they have no other choices and the market is thin.
He's more then a decent player. He's a very good player. And instead of making a blanket false statement such as saying that a" team that has Carle in a major offensive role is a team that has serious issues." I'll again provide some facts. Carle finished tied for 20th among NHL defenseman in points. Being that there are 30 teams in the League, and 6 regular defenseman a team, that's 20th out of 180 players. What is the percentile that Carle is in offensively there? Yea there would really be a serious issue there. LOL
Carle has proven that he can be a compliment to a #1 defenseman on a top pair, and play at a high level doing it.
Carle won't be paid at an inflated rate. He'll be paid at what his value is. And according to reports, possibly even less then what his value is.

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06-20-2012, 05:10 PM
  #168
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Just want to point out that being a member of the media or a GM doesn't make you correct. Mike Milbury was a GM and is currently a member of the media. Timmeh and Carchidi or however you spell his name are members of the media. All 3 of them could be replaced by certain HFBoards members and do a much better job.
Your right it doesn't make you right. But there are plenty of highly knowledgeable media members who know the game very well. Among them, NHL GM's, Scouts, etc. There has to be one source that backs up what the Carle bashers think of him as a player. Why isn't there one source? All I'm asking is that anyone provide it. One credible source, that's all I'm asking for.

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06-20-2012, 05:13 PM
  #169
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OK, I'll make one more post here because I want to ask you a question.

You say that Carle is very good positionally. That he is very good at using his body. That he is very good along the boards. He is very good at passing in his own end. He is very good at passing. He makes very good decisions almost all the time. He is very good at skating. He is very good at 1 on 1 defense. He is very good at blocking shots. He is very good on the PP. He is very good at the PK. He is just very good at everything, except for his shot, which apparently doesn't matter because all shots to you seem to be equal if they hit the net.

What you have described to us in your defense of Carle is a generational defenseman who will end up in the Hall of Fame some day. So...do you think that's the case? If not, why?

Because, a player who is very good at everything and only has one weak point in their game is generally one of the best players in the league. Is Carle one of the best players in the league? Because that is what you seem to think, going over your statements regarding Carle.

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06-20-2012, 05:18 PM
  #170
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OK, I'll make one more post here because I want to ask you a question.

You say that Carle is very good positionally. That he is very good at using his body. That he is very good along the boards. He is very good at passing in his own end. He is very good at passing. He makes very good decisions almost all the time. He is very good at skating. He is very good at 1 on 1 defense. He is very good at blocking shots. He is very good on the PP. He is very good at the PK. He is just very good at everything, except for his shot, which apparently doesn't matter because all shots to you seem to be equal if they hit the net.

What you have described to us in your defense of Carle is a generational defenseman who will end up in the Hall of Fame some day. So...do you think that's the case? If not, why?

Because, a player who is very good at everything and only has one weak point in their game is generally one of the best players in the league. Is Carle one of the best players in the league? Because that is what you seem to think, going over your statements regarding Carle.
Your woefully incorrect in stating that I've said that Carle is very good at everything and only has one weak point in his game. So correct that misrepresentation of my opinion on Carle as a player, and then we'll continue on.

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06-20-2012, 05:31 PM
  #171
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Elliot Freedman was just on TSN 990 Montreal and said that he had heard from sources that Carle's first choice was to go out west, but that Holmgren said he's very optimistic that a deal would get done.

Interesting.

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06-20-2012, 05:33 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
I'm not making anything up. I am telling you what I have seen from him over the years. I was a Carle fan and supporter when he started here; I gave him the benefit of the doubt for a year longer than many people. Carle's own play changed my mind as I saw him make the same mistakes or be plagued by the same flaws game after game for 4 years. Carle changed my mind about Carle, and he hasn't done a whole lot to change it back.

As for his assists? Color me unimpressed. Passing the puck to one of the best offenses in the league inflated those numbers. The guy can't score goals and is a liability on the PP. Plop him on another team and I guarantee his numbers drop.

dont you feel like your having the same discussion like you would when discussing ( or attempting to) with BP74 about Bryz..

i wonder if its the same guy actualy, Hahahh

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06-20-2012, 05:35 PM
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Elliot Freedman was just on TSN 990 Montreal and said that he had heard from sources that Carle's first choice was to go out west, but that Holmgren said he's very optimistic that a deal would get done.

Interesting.
he said they same thing about leino look what happened.


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06-20-2012, 05:36 PM
  #174
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Elliot Freedman was just on TSN 990 Montreal and said that he had heard from sources that Carle's first choice was to go out west, but that Holmgren said he's very optimistic that a deal would get done.

Interesting.
yea I found that interesting as well. I posted about it in our off season thread. He actually posted it in his 30 thoughts column on Monday. I just don't know what or who to believe anymore, but I guess that goes with the excitement of the off season.

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06-20-2012, 05:40 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Your woefully incorrect in stating that I've said that Carle is very good at everything and only has one weak point in his game. So correct that misrepresentation of my opinion on Carle as a player, and then we'll continue on.
In your opinion, what are Carle's weaknesses, besides his shot?

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