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"With the 20th pick, the Philadelphia Flyers selects..."

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Old
06-20-2012, 01:24 PM
  #276
cheesesteak
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I just seen this mock draft on CSNPhilly. I haven't heard much about Jordan Schmaltz does anyone have some info? http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phil...8634254855-711

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06-20-2012, 02:05 PM
  #277
Haute Couturier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
yeah I probably did read it wrong. I dont claim to be an expert in junior players. I have never been to 1 junior game in my life. I do appreciate insight from people like you on some of these kids that you have seen play along with others here.
Of course people are going to question when they see a junior kid with 9 goals and 16 assists in 47 games rated so highly.
I have never seen the kid play and I am sure most around here havent. But I dont fault people for questioning the ranking of a player like Wilson because many times it comes without explanation.
I read it the same way you did. He was trying to put down the opinions of anyone who hadn't saw Wilson play and are accusing us of simply with going with the crowd.

I think there is a lot of value of watching these players because you can't learn everything there is about a prospect on stats alone, but at the same time it's usually a mistake to not take their performance into account.

Scouts get to see these players far more than any of us, but they aren't infallible. They get it wrong and sometimes they get it wrong majorly. I've beated the Giroux horse a lot, but it really is the perfect example. Giroux's peformance in 2006 was what you'd expect from a top 5 selection, but scouts did not like him and he was ranked around where we picked him (22nd). Someone could have easily argued he should have been a top pick in 2006, but they would have been ridiculed because not one scouting service had him ranked that high. As it turns out the scouts were wrong to ignore his performance, but it worked out in favor of the Flyers so I'm not complaining.

Wilson is the anti-Giroux. Scouts are very high on him, but his performance does not back it up. I haven't seen him play, but what I do know is that it is rare for a forward playing in juniors with such little offense to be selected in the first round these days. In the 2011 draft the lowest points per game average from a forward selected out of the CHL in the first round was Rackell with a .88 ppg. He was selected 30th. There were only two CHL forwards under a point per game and they were selected 29 and 30th. Wilson has a .55 ppg and he's supposed to be a top 20 pick? It doesn't make sense unless this draft is that thin on forwards.

We also know historically that forwards that lack offense in juniors don't develop into scorers at higher levels. It's always possible he will be that rare exception, but I wouldn't on it.

We don't need to see him play to know he's a high risk pick. History is not on his side. Of course those completely incapable of a critical thought will not see anything wrong with it and will chastise us for not liking the pick. I expect nothing less from certain people.

BTW this wasn't a rant directed at you.

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06-20-2012, 02:26 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I read it the same way you did. He was trying to put down the opinions of anyone who hadn't saw Wilson play and are accusing us of simply with going with the crowd.

I think there is a lot of value of watching these players because you can't learn everything there is about a prospect on stats alone, but at the same time it's usually a mistake to not take their performance into account.

Scouts get to see these players far more than any of us, but they aren't infallible. They get it wrong and sometimes they get it wrong majorly. I've beated the Giroux horse a lot, but it really is the perfect example. Giroux's peformance in 2006 was what you'd expect from a top 5 selection, but scouts did not like him and he was ranked around where we picked him (22nd). Someone could have easily argued he should have been a top pick in 2006, but they would have been ridiculed because not one scouting service had him ranked that high. As it turns out the scouts were wrong to ignore his performance, but it worked out in favor of the Flyers so I'm not complaining.

Wilson is the anti-Giroux. Scouts are very high on him, but his performance does not back it up. I haven't seen him play, but what I do know is that it is rare for a forward playing in juniors with such little offense to be selected in the first round these days. In the 2011 draft the lowest points per game average from a forward selected out of the CHL in the first round was Rackell with a .88 ppg. He was selected 30th. There were only two CHL forwards under a point per game and they were selected 29 and 30th. Wilson has a .55 ppg and he's supposed to be a top 20 pick? It doesn't make sense unless this draft is that thin on forwards.

We also know historically that forwards that lack offense in juniors don't develop into scorers at higher levels. It's always possible he will be that rare exception, but I wouldn't on it.

We don't need to see him play to know he's a high risk pick. History is not on his side. Of course those completely incapable of a critical thought will not see anything wrong with it and will chastise us for not liking the pick. I expect nothing less from certain people.

BTW this wasn't a rant directed at you.
The points in this post are excellent, well thought out

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Old
06-20-2012, 03:37 PM
  #279
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Milan Lucic's draft year
GP: 62
G: 9
A: 10
P: 19

You really have to take into account opportunities. Was he playing a defensive role? Was he getting the minutes? The powerplay time? I haven't seen any Plymouth games so I can't answer that, but sometimes you have to look beyond the stats.

I think part of the appeal with Wilson is that even if he never fulfills his offensive potential, he still adds value as an energy guy.

In most drafts, he's probably not a first rounder but with the draft so thin on forwards I think teams are willing to take a gamble on him.

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Old
06-20-2012, 03:42 PM
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
so basically what you're saying is anyone who cant watch junior hockey shouldnt voice their concerns over who to draft?
No. No. No. Not at all. We should all voice opinions (point of the forum) but they should be qualified and educated. I'm saying people who have never seen him play should have a response more along the lines of something like this:

"I've never seen player X play but from what I've read of him....."

But all too often I see:

"player x would be a horrible pick", or "Homer would be a moron to pick player x"

maybe to some of you that isn't a big difference but to me it is. There is a world of difference between voicing concerns and acting like a scout when you've never seen the guy.

For the record I do not disagree with Libertines point that junior players who have poor numbers tend to have even poorer ones in the NHL. But that isn't what the mob comment was directed at. I don't recall saying I wanted Wilson by the way. I wondered how many of you had actually seen him play before forming your opinions and the answer I'm sure will be very few. His team was almost never on where I am and so assume most of the province didn't see a ton of them either.

Oh and I'm not accusing you all of following the crowd. I'm accusing most of you of following the crowd

I think there are some on here who form opinions very quickly about a player and that sometimes those opinions are based on what someone else in these forums said about them and not on observations they have made on their own.

If your info is from Youtube say so. If your information is from watching them live say so. If your information is from studying that style of player and compiling information say so. If your information id from scouting reports say so. Those are all acceptable opinions and each carry a degree of validity and can add to the forum. But if your opinion is from 4 posts before yours you are a mob member. And it is my opinion that there are plenty of mob members on this and other forums like it.

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Old
06-20-2012, 03:52 PM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
I'm not saying otherwise, as I'm in the same boat you are viewing-wise. There's nothing wrong with liking what you glean about prospects from reading various draft websites and pro scouts. I just think it's important -- and honorable -- for posters who haven't seen the prospects play extensively to preface their opinions with that disclaimer.
Yes exactly. EXACTLY. (does Homer Simpson attempting Monty Burns impression)

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Old
06-20-2012, 03:57 PM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jd2210 View Post
No. No. No. Not at all. We should all voice opinions (point of the forum) but they should be qualified and educated. I'm saying people who have never seen him play should have a response more along the lines of something like this:

"I've never seen player X play but from what I've read of him....."

But all too often I see:

"player x would be a horrible pick", or "Homer would be a moron to pick player x"

maybe to some of you that isn't a big difference but to me it is. There is a world of difference between voicing concerns and acting like a scout when you've never seen the guy.

For the record I do not disagree with Libertines point that junior players who have poor numbers tend to have even poorer ones in the NHL. But that isn't what the mob comment was directed at. I don't recall saying I wanted Wilson by the way. I wondered how many of you had actually seen him play before forming your opinions and the answer I'm sure will be very few. His team was almost never on where I am and so assume most of the province didn't see a ton of them either.

Oh and I'm not accusing you all of following the crowd. I'm accusing most of you of following the crowd

I think there are some on here who form opinions very quickly about a player and that sometimes those opinions are based on what someone else in these forums said about them and not on observations they have made on their own.

If your info is from Youtube say so. If your information is from watching them live say so. If your information is from studying that style of player and compiling information say so. If your information id from scouting reports say so. Those are all acceptable opinions and each carry a degree of validity and can add to the forum. But if your opinion is from 4 posts before yours you are a mob member. And it is my opinion that there are plenty of mob members on this and other forums like it.

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Old
06-20-2012, 05:58 PM
  #283
Haute Couturier
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Serious question, if someone admits to liking Wilson or another player do they also have to submit a disclaimer that they have never watched him play. Why does this come up only when there is criticism towards a player the Flyers like? Is it only okay to have an opinion when we are blindly following the Flyers and the scouts?

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06-20-2012, 06:45 PM
  #284
jd2210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Serious question, if someone admits to liking Wilson or another player do they also have to submit a disclaimer that they have never watched him play. Why does this come up only when there is criticism towards a player the Flyers like? Is it only okay to have an opinion when we are blindly following the Flyers and the scouts?
Exact same criteria applies. If I've never seen someone how could I possibly like them?

As for your last question, "blindly following" anything is exactly what I'm railing against.

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06-20-2012, 07:00 PM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesesteak View Post
I just seen this mock draft on CSNPhilly. I haven't heard much about Jordan Schmaltz does anyone have some info? http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phil...8634254855-711
Schmaltz is a wonderful hockey player. If you don't mind waiting two years for him, he'll be well worth the wait. Probably the best skater amongst all the defensemen available this year. He's not very physical, but part of that is because when he started the year, he was only 170 pounds and he just bounced off people. I think when he gets to North Dakota, they'll help him hit the 200 pound mark in terms of weight and teach him how to play an effective physical game.

In terms of offensive skill, he's got a fantastic shot and he sees the ice incredibly well. He's definitely a power play quarterback and his overall game reminds me a bit of Alex Edler. Honestly, I'm surprised he's not rated higher, but at the same time, I get why he's not rated higher.

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06-20-2012, 09:23 PM
  #286
Haute Couturier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jd2210 View Post
Exact same criteria applies. If I've never seen someone how could I possibly like them?

As for your last question, "blindly following" anything is exactly what I'm railing against.
The problem is you are accusing people of just blindly following when anyone can simply see his offense is a huge question mark for a first round pick.

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Old
06-20-2012, 09:41 PM
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jd2210 View Post
No. No. No. Not at all. We should all voice opinions (point of the forum) but they should be qualified and educated. I'm saying people who have never seen him play should have a response more along the lines of something like this:

"I've never seen player X play but from what I've read of him....."

But all too often I see:

"player x would be a horrible pick", or "Homer would be a moron to pick player x"

maybe to some of you that isn't a big difference but to me it is. There is a world of difference between voicing concerns and acting like a scout when you've never seen the guy.

For the record I do not disagree with Libertines point that junior players who have poor numbers tend to have even poorer ones in the NHL. But that isn't what the mob comment was directed at. I don't recall saying I wanted Wilson by the way. I wondered how many of you had actually seen him play before forming your opinions and the answer I'm sure will be very few. His team was almost never on where I am and so assume most of the province didn't see a ton of them either.

Oh and I'm not accusing you all of following the crowd. I'm accusing most of you of following the crowd

I think there are some on here who form opinions very quickly about a player and that sometimes those opinions are based on what someone else in these forums said about them and not on observations they have made on their own.

If your info is from Youtube say so. If your information is from watching them live say so. If your information is from studying that style of player and compiling information say so. If your information id from scouting reports say so. Those are all acceptable opinions and each carry a degree of validity and can add to the forum. But if your opinion is from 4 posts before yours you are a mob member. And it is my opinion that there are plenty of mob members on this and other forums like it.
You seem to make sense, but I don't read your posts. Fish Invictus PMed me that you smell bad and overuse the spellcheck option.

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Old
06-20-2012, 11:53 PM
  #288
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schmaltz, like him

the dmen after ceci, who should go 12ish, a lot of these guys, do not impress me. schamltz has good size, see him 6-2,189, when this guy puts on weight, hope he adds some physical to his game. he is smart enough to break up plays. and he is a right hand shot.

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Old
06-21-2012, 03:51 AM
  #289
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I will miss the draft, due to it taking place on Midsummer's Eve and I'm, as the tradition demands, off deep into the woods to get absolutely hammered. I hope when I return that we can discuss the shiny new toys we've gotten, rather than these ridiculous trade rumours (the Carle debate will go on though, I don't think there's any solution to that, really).

I have my money on us picking Pouliot, btw.

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Old
06-21-2012, 08:54 AM
  #290
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I wanna see the pick packaged up with JVR for either Erick johnson or Bobby Ryan

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06-21-2012, 08:56 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by mirimon View Post
I will miss the draft, due to it taking place on Midsummer's Eve and I'm, as the tradition demands, off deep into the woods to get absolutely hammered. I hope when I return that we can discuss the shiny new toys we've gotten, rather than these ridiculous trade rumours (the Carle debate will go on though, I don't think there's any solution to that, really).

I have my money on us picking Pouliot, btw.
have a good time, I missed the draft a few years ago for a similar alcohol induced week.

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Old
06-21-2012, 09:13 AM
  #292
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On vacation so not readong or posting much but manuyunk mike, for what its worth, said that the Flyers are trying to keep their first. Wondering if they are trying to get two firsts

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06-21-2012, 09:17 AM
  #293
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
On vacation so not readong or posting much but manuyunk mike, for what its worth, said that the Flyers are trying to keep their first. Wondering if they are trying to get two firsts
I think the Flyers are probably juggling so many options right now that it's impossible to say at this second (for them or us) whether they'll be selecting 0, 1, or 2 times in the first round tomorrow. It will make every walk to the podium more interesting.

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Old
06-21-2012, 09:19 AM
  #294
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I think the Flyers are probably juggling so many options right now that it's impossible to say at this second (for them or us) whether they'll be selecting 0, 1, or 2 times in the first round tomorrow. It will make every walk to the podium more interesting.
After weeks of suggesting various ways the Flyers could move up, and reasons for doing so, I've now been scared by the prospect of JVR, Couturier + going out enough to want them to stand pat, do nothing, and sign the best FA available according to their needs on July 1.



Where ever that bandwagon is, I'm on my way.

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Old
06-21-2012, 09:20 AM
  #295
jd2210
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You seem to make sense, but I don't read your posts. Fish Invictus PMed me that you smell bad and overuse the spellcheck option.
Eyem lawst wiffout meye spelle cheque

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06-21-2012, 09:23 AM
  #296
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I just hope the Flyers, if they pick at 20 or move up, pick the best player available. Outside a few of the first defenseman off the board, these picks aren't going to be playing for the big club this year. Our defense could look completely different by the time these guys reach the NHL. There is no reason to limit yourself to only picking a defenseman, if you feel their are better players at other positions available.

If their is one part of this organization I trust, its the scouts. This team probably has the best drafting record of the last 10 years (outside of the team's with consistent lottery picks).

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06-21-2012, 02:08 PM
  #297
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I hate even posting it, but bored at work:

PER Eklund:

Quote:
On Philly

I am told they are very interested in a specific player in the draft and if he is available at 6 or so the Flyers may make a major deal to move up and get him.

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Old
06-21-2012, 02:14 PM
  #298
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I hate even posting it, but bored at work:

PER Eklund:
Eklund has been reading my Voracek / Schen / Mez / 20th for Ryan / 6 posts.

I think it would have to be one of Murray / Dumba / Reinhart. I really can't imagine them trading what it would take to get up and take a forward, unless it was part of a bigger deal.

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06-21-2012, 02:22 PM
  #299
Haute Couturier
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Eklund has been reading my Voracek / Schen / Mez / 20th for Ryan / 6 posts.

I think it would have to be one of Murray / Dumba / Reinhart. I really can't imagine them trading what it would take to get up and take a forward, unless it was part of a bigger deal.
Replace Murray with Reilly. Murray will be gone by then.

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Old
06-21-2012, 03:10 PM
  #300
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Could possibly be Jacob Trouba......

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