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06-21-2012, 02:38 AM
  #1
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Toby Enstrom

Why is it that all over the boards and the trade boards the guy is on the first plane out of Winnipeg? The guy is a bonafide 1st pairing puck moving LHD that's entering his prime years. Undersized, maybe slightly, but the guys a hard worker and quiet warrior. Not sure why everyone wants to move him so eagerly. Championship teams have a few guys on their backend with brains and puckmoving ability like Enstrom. I've yet to see a championship team in recent years (the last 20) with a defenseman who plays like a 4th forward and is pretty miserable in his own zone, yet I hardly ever see Byfuglien mentioned in any sort of proposals...

What am I missing here? Other than the fact Enstrom needs to be re-signed within the next season, nothing is pointing to him walking, and yet everyone seems to be gung-ho on trading him away. Hands down Enstrom >>> Byfuglien... I don't get it.

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06-21-2012, 02:55 AM
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The short simple answer is to get something you have to give up something and with an expiring contract and his skill set Enstrom would be very attractive to either a team like Edmonton that needs a player just like him or come deadline day a contender.

Making a move now would also free up room for a player like Postma who has earned everyright to be an everyday NHL player and while less defensive then Enstrom may be an improvement offensively from him.

Don't get the rumours wrong. No one is saying ship him out ASAP, he's just one of the more logical pieces to move to acquire top 6 forward help.

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06-21-2012, 03:16 AM
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Byfuglien isn't mentioned in proposals because his cap hit (5.2M for four years) makes him hard to move. Enstrom is a more attractive contract at this point for teams interested in moving for him. I'm on the side of re-signing Enstrom and then attempting to trade/draft/sign some top 6 depth either way. I think his combination of puck moving abilities and defensive play make him an attractive player to lock up for the long term.

He'd make a great partner for Zach Bogosian on the top pairing. Then we could pair Byfuglien with a shut-down defenceman to match lines or continue him alongside Enstrom on the first PP unit.

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Originally Posted by WWoJeff View Post
The short simple answer is to get something you have to give up something and with an expiring contract and his skill set Enstrom would be very attractive to either a team like Edmonton that needs a player just like him or come deadline day a contender.

Making a move now would also free up room for a player like Postma who has earned everyright to be an everyday NHL player and while less defensive then Enstrom may be an improvement offensively from him.

Don't get the rumours wrong. No one is saying ship him out ASAP, he's just one of the more logical pieces to move to acquire top 6 forward help.
Postma was benched at one point last season for the IceCaps because of unacceptably bad defensive play. Until he battles his way onto the NHL side, I wouldn't guarantee him a spot by shipping out the team's #1 Dman.

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06-21-2012, 06:09 AM
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Personally I would trade Buff everyday of the week before Enstrom, but I just don't see a market for him. Call him what you like 4th forward or rover, Buff wouldn't fit into most team's systems, so why mess things up for yourself for a 5.2 M cap hit. Enstrom on the other could bring some real value coming back as his offensive skill is undeniable. However, IMO Enstrom is also more than slightly undersized, which is fine on an otherwise big gritty team which the Jets are not, so I think his physical limitations become more noticeable. This is then multiplied with him having to cover up for Buff all the time.

In my perfect world we find someone to take Buff and get some value back, we sign Enstrom and pair him with Bogo on the top pairing, find 2 big stay at home defensive heavyweights to fill out our other pairings, and concentrate on finding forwards who can put the puck into the net.

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06-21-2012, 07:00 AM
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Look closer and you'll notice that all of those threads were started by the same poster.

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06-21-2012, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
Personally I would trade Buff everyday of the week before Enstrom, but I just don't see a market for him. Call him what you like 4th forward or rover, Buff wouldn't fit into most team's systems, so why mess things up for yourself for a 5.2 M cap hit. Enstrom on the other could bring some real value coming back as his offensive skill is undeniable. However, IMO Enstrom is also more than slightly undersized, which is fine on an otherwise big gritty team which the Jets are not, so I think his physical limitations become more noticeable. This is then multiplied with him having to cover up for Buff all the time.

In my perfect world we find someone to take Buff and get some value back, we sign Enstrom and pair him with Bogo on the top pairing, find 2 big stay at home defensive heavyweights to fill out our other pairings, and concentrate on finding forwards who can put the puck into the net.


Count me in on this plan King.

The thought of going into the 2013-14 season with Bogo and Buff as our only top 4 assets (currently on our roster at this point) is terrifying. if Bogo were to pick up an injury.....yikes. If Buff shows up fit for camp and is with THE plan and by that I mean our plan and not his plan then I am in the camp of not moving our D assets at this point except maybe the Hains at the deadline if he plans to go to market next July anyways. Why trade one problem for another?

By the 2013-14 season I could see two of Burmi, Telegin, or Scheifele joining Kane to form a solid young second line or we patch the hole via a better free agency market next year depending on that prospect groups development over the next 14 months.

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06-21-2012, 07:05 AM
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I am all for signing Toby to a long term contract. HOWEVER, if we can't we have to trade him at the deadline. This team cannot let a valuable asset walk for nothing. We will end up a lottery team for years.

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06-21-2012, 07:28 AM
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We're all blinded by a certain defenseman that plays no defense, pinches at the wrong time, and has a big slap shot... Basically Happy Gilmore 2.0. That should tell you all you need to know.

Enstrom doesn't have a big slapper and actually plays like a defenseman... get him out of here! We don't need players like that.

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06-21-2012, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWD View Post
I am all for signing Toby to a long term contract. HOWEVER, if we can't we have to trade him at the deadline. This team cannot let a valuable asset walk for nothing. We will end up a lottery team for years.
I am for getting Toby secured long term BUT if that is not possible then we absolutely must maximize asset value. That might be as late as the deadline or as early as tomorrow if Toby has let TNSE he will be testing the market next summer.

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06-21-2012, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
I am for getting Toby secured long term BUT if that is not possible then we absolutely must maximize asset value. That might be as late as the deadline or as early as tomorrow if Toby has let TNSE he will be testing the market next summer.
Agree.

I am open to anything, really. If we can trade Enstrom and get a quality top 6 forward in return, it's certainly worth a look if Chevy and co. feel so.

I am also more than open to re-signing Enstrom long-term. I've said for the longest of time that so long as you don't have 2+ or too many "Tiny Enstrom's" on a blueline, you'll be alright. I'd say every defensive unit can use a Toby Enstrom. Generally speaking he is the type of defenceman that if you don't have one, you're looking for one. And, I think he is a good fit here considering we've got some bigger and more physical defenders playing with him in Bogosian, Byfuglien (bigger, not really physical), Stuart. Perhaps we can add Trouba to that list in due time, who knows.

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06-21-2012, 07:49 AM
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Toby Enstrom to Chicago for Patrick Kane and a 4th. >_>

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06-21-2012, 08:21 AM
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My preferred order for possible options is:

1) Resign Enstrom on a great contract (Karlsson just got 6.5, so you would think Enstrom should be between 5 and 5.5), and pair him up with Bogosian on the 1st pair. Trade Hainsey at the deadline and try to find a true stay at home D man to pair with Buff.

If Enstrom isn't going to sign here:

2) Trade him now (bigger return).
3) Trade him at the deadline.

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06-21-2012, 08:24 AM
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I'd rather try to re-sign Enstrom during the season. If by trade deadline he won't re-sign, regardless if we're in playoff contention or not, then try and trade him. Hopefully this years d-man draft pick will be ready for the following season for full time work.

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06-21-2012, 09:07 AM
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Trading Enstrom isn't about who is better between him and Buff, because he is obviously much better defensively than Buff is.

The issue at hand is that we need a solid big 1st-2nd line center and rebuild a horrible prospect pool.

Buff won't let us do that as he has a huge cap hit. Enstrom's cap hit is low and has an expiring contract. So the highest value asset that we'd be likely to trade would be Enstrom.

In saying that, I believe Enstrom, though a fantastic D-man, is expendable. Buff's offence was sorely missed when he was out and say what you will about Buff's defensive liability but I saw Enstrom get caught many many times as well. (I'm not sure why they are on the same pairing since they both love to play offence).

However I don't think anyone is running him out of town. If we resign him, great. If we trade him as a package for Stastny, Staal, a big winger or whoever then that's fine as well.

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06-21-2012, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos1337 View Post
Trading Enstrom isn't about who is better between him and Buff, because he is obviously much better defensively than Buff is.

The issue at hand is that we need a solid big 1st-2nd line center and rebuild a horrible prospect pool.

Buff won't let us do that as he has a huge cap hit. Enstrom's cap hit is low and has an expiring contract. So the highest value asset that we'd be likely to trade would be Enstrom.

In saying that, I believe Enstrom, though a fantastic D-man, is expendable. Buff's offence was sorely missed when he was out and say what you will about Buff's defensive liability but I saw Enstrom get caught many many times as well. (I'm not sure why they are on the same pairing since they both love to play offence).

However I don't think anyone is running him out of town. If we resign him, great. If we trade him as a package for Stastny, Staal, a big winger or whoever then that's fine as well.
This guy gets it. Great post.


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06-21-2012, 09:31 AM
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If Enstrom is traded, maybe we can see his full potential without having to cover for Buff day in and day out.

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06-21-2012, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos1337 View Post
Trading Enstrom isn't about who is better between him and Buff, because he is obviously much better defensively than Buff is.

The issue at hand is that we need a solid big 1st-2nd line center and rebuild a horrible prospect pool.

Buff won't let us do that as he has a huge cap hit. Enstrom's cap hit is low and has an expiring contract. So the highest value asset that we'd be likely to trade would be Enstrom.

In saying that, I believe Enstrom, though a fantastic D-man, is expendable. Buff's offence was sorely missed when he was out and say what you will about Buff's defensive liability but I saw Enstrom get caught many many times as well. (I'm not sure why they are on the same pairing since they both love to play offence).

However I don't think anyone is running him out of town. If we resign him, great. If we trade him as a package for Stastny, Staal, a big winger or whoever then that's fine as well.
Very well said. Your post is very open-minded and is how I hope management handles Enstrom. If we receive a real good hockey deal for Enstrom and it benefits the Jets today and in the future, perhaps pull the trigger. If not, and perhaps management feel it's best to keep Enstrom, and Enstrom wants to remain a Jet long-term, then the two sides can agree on a deal going forward.

The thing I like about Cheveldayoff is he's stated repeatedly that he will basically not leave any stone un-turned and that he will explore all options of improving the team both today and in the future. Of course that's the normal thing to say for most GM's, but I really think Cheveldayoff will do his homework. For a team that WILL build through the draft and takes pride in its prospects and developmental system, he has let it be known he is open to trading the 9th overall pick if the deal is right, not every GM will do or say that publicly.

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06-21-2012, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teucer View Post
If Enstrom is traded, maybe we can see his full potential without having to cover for Buff day in and day out.
I think it more likely you'll see greater numbers from him elsewhere if he is traded to a team that plays a under a less restrictive system. His numbers aren't limited here due to Buff, they are limited because he is not allowed the room to improvise. He is not allowed to wheel and deal likely because the Jets want quicker, more prompt breakouts... versus the patient tendencies of Enstrom.

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06-21-2012, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
I think it more likely you'll see greater numbers from him elsewhere if he is traded to a team that plays a under a less restrictive system. His numbers aren't limited here due to Buff, they are limited because he is not allowed the room to improvise. He is not allowed to wheel and deal likely because the Jets want quicker, more prompt breakouts... versus the patient tendencies of Enstrom.
Agree - Enstrom has elite skill, there's no doubt. If he had the latitude to wheel and deal like Karlsson does, I believe that he'd easily get back to his 50-60pt production level. If the system the Jets plan on employing doesn't fit an undeniably important and valuable asset, then that asset should be moved to bring in assets that do.

I like Enstrom - I really do. But I'm starting to side with the best trade gambit group.

With all of Buff's deficiencies, one of the things he does really well is execute accurate, almost incredible at times, breakout passes. It was one of the things that impressed me the most about him. Fits what the Jets d-coaching seems to espouse.

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06-21-2012, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
Agree - Enstrom has elite skill, there's no doubt. If he had the latitude to wheel and deal like Karlsson does, I believe that he'd easily get back to his 50-60pt production level. If the system the Jets plan on employing doesn't fit an undeniably important and valuable asset, then that asset should be moved to bring in assets that do.

I like Enstrom - I really do. But I'm starting to side with the best trade gambit group.

With all of Buff's deficiencies, one of the things he does really well is execute accurate, almost incredible at times, breakout passes. It was one of the things that impressed me the most about him. Fits what the Jets d-coaching seems to espouse.


agree Buff is excellant in this catagory.

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06-21-2012, 11:05 AM
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While in Atlanta, Buff was able to put up those good numbers because Toby had his back. If Enstrom does want out it's only because outside of losing the only real tradition we ever saw with the Thrashers was good players getting out the first chance they got.

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06-21-2012, 11:21 AM
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It will be interesting to see how the talks go with Toby. I always expected his negotiations to go about like Slater's. In Atlanta when he re-signed for a long term with a low cap hit, everyone was very pleased and felt like Enstrom could have held out for more. He expressed how happy he was to be with the organization, then went on about his business on the ice.

I've been fully expecting him to re-sign the same way this year. If he doesn't and his negotiations go more like they are going with Glass, then I think it must be because of Gump's assertions that Toby feels he doesn't do well under the Jets playing style (even though he was always very defensively responsible before and never as free-wheeling as Gump thinks he was). He did drop all the way to 31st in the league for defensemen with his 33 points. Or maybe Toby would just want to play for a team where he doesn't have to be paired with an extra winger.

I still expect that the most likely scenario is that he quietly re-signs with the Jets and actually leaves a bit of money on the table though. Enstrom has always seemed pretty loyal and happy to be with his current teammates. I think that those who are hoping Toby wants to test free-agency and ends up getting traded are going to be disappointed.

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06-21-2012, 11:24 AM
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I really don't want to trade Enstrom because his value is at an all time low and he seems like genuinely good team guy. However, he's being misused having to cover for Byfuglien and Chevy has said he wants to place an emphasis on size, so it's not out of the question that they would shop him.

The only way I would trade him is if we got a ridiculous return (more than Minnesota got for Burns) or maybe 1-for-1 for another good player (Jordan Staal?)

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06-21-2012, 11:34 AM
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Just FYI, in the 20 games Toby missed due to injury Buff scored 17pts in 20 or so games, scoring at a faster pace than while paired with Toby.

I believe he was paired with Stuart during that period. Maybe if we keep Enstrom we should split them up except for the power play.

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06-21-2012, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
Personally I would trade Buff everyday of the week before Enstrom, but I just don't see a market for him. Call him what you like 4th forward or rover, Buff wouldn't fit into most team's systems, so why mess things up for yourself for a 5.2 M cap hit. Enstrom on the other could bring some real value coming back as his offensive skill is undeniable. However, IMO Enstrom is also more than slightly undersized, which is fine on an otherwise big gritty team which the Jets are not, so I think his physical limitations become more noticeable. This is then multiplied with him having to cover up for Buff all the time.

In my perfect world we find someone to take Buff and get some value back, we sign Enstrom and pair him with Bogo on the top pairing, find 2 big stay at home defensive heavyweights to fill out our other pairings, and concentrate on finding forwards who can put the puck into the net.
Couldn't have said it better.

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