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Old
06-21-2012, 09:46 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by ap3lovr View Post
I would try to center the deal around Lucic. I honestly feel his play is lackluster at the best of times. Also with Lucic, Marchand, Seguin and Horton all needing a new contract next year it is very likely that we will need to replace 2 of the 4. However I would personally try to sweeten the deal.

To Columbus
Lucic
Caron
Thomas
Spooner
Knight
1st round pick

To Boston
Nash
Umberger
I like it but I feel like there should be a way to send Columbus more than that .
I would also add Bergeron and Hamilton just to be sure we can cinch up Nash .

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06-21-2012, 10:00 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by McKuato View Post
Glad you're not the GM
Not exactly sure what is wrong with that trade from the Bruins side. Columbus would never do it because of all of the salary coming back, but from the B's perspective they get better while dropping a good bundle of salary. Maybe keep one of Spooner/Knight but not really sure what the uproar is. We need to get rid of Thomas anyway, Lucic becomes redundant if we have Nash and Horton, our first pick is nothing much...Spooner and Knight won't make any immediate impact (Spooner will likely never play with Bergy, Seguin, Krejci, Kelly)...

You have to give to get and that deal immediately makes the Bruins a Cup favorite. End of story.

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06-21-2012, 10:04 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by NYCBruin View Post
Not exactly sure what is wrong with that trade from the Bruins side. Columbus would never do it because of all of the salary coming back, but from the B's perspective they get better while dropping a good bundle of salary. Maybe keep one of Spooner/Knight but not really sure what the uproar is. We need to get rid of Thomas anyway, Lucic becomes redundant if we have Nash and Horton, our first pick is nothing much...Spooner and Knight won't make any immediate impact (Spooner will likely never play with Bergy, Seguin, Krejci, Kelly)...

You have to give to get and that deal immediately makes the Bruins a Cup favorite. End of story.
I agree, we should also throw in Rask, Chara, Bergeron while we are at it. Anything to get Nash! Anything!

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06-21-2012, 10:07 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by NYCBruin View Post
Not exactly sure what is wrong with that trade from the Bruins side. Columbus would never do it because of all of the salary coming back, but from the B's perspective they get better while dropping a good bundle of salary. Maybe keep one of Spooner/Knight but not really sure what the uproar is. We need to get rid of Thomas anyway, Lucic becomes redundant if we have Nash and Horton, our first pick is nothing much...Spooner and Knight won't make any immediate impact (Spooner will likely never play with Bergy, Seguin, Krejci, Kelly)...

You have to give to get and that deal immediately makes the Bruins a Cup favorite. End of story.
Columbus takes on a 1 year committment of $4m in salary (Lucic) and sends back $12.4m for FIVE seasons, and then another year of Nash. Thomas would likely remain suspended, CBJ isn't going to sniff the cap. There might be reasons for Columbus not to do that deal (I can't think of one), but salary certainly isn't one of them.

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06-21-2012, 10:10 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by MTaylorJ1 View Post
Columbus takes on a 1 year committment of $4m in salary (Lucic) and sends back $12.4m for FIVE seasons, and then another year of Nash. Thomas would likely remain suspended, CBJ isn't going to sniff the cap. There might be reasons for Columbus not to do that deal (I can't think of one), but salary certainly isn't one of them.
I would remove Umberger from the equation. Not needed. After subtracting Looch and Caron Nash will only hit you around $3 Million more than current roster. Getting rid of Thomas free's up 5 Million right away. If you look ahead 5 years the 7.8 Million will not look so large...this happens all the time. You have to give to get, otherwise sit in mediocrity.

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06-21-2012, 10:15 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by LSCII View Post
Those guys would all have to improve just to be what Nash is already. Get the big difference?

As for the reality of this, I do not expect any big moves by PC and company. No Nash, no Parise, no Iginla, and no Ryan. Nothing but more bottom feeders and grinders while hoping against hope that Horton can come back, be productive, and remain healthy.
I dont see it that way,, I see Lucic as a perennial 25-30 goal scorer,, it's safe to assume Seguin will be scoring 30-40 goals regularly, Marchand scored mid-20's this year & can most likely maintain that. The Bruins already have their core in place, a core that won the Cup mind you. Ofcourse Nash is extremely talented, but reality is he's a mid-30's goal scorer, he doesnt score 40 regularly, he never flirted w/ 50 goals,, he's good for 10 more goals than Lucic per year. However imo the biggest obstacle is his cap hit,, it would force Chia to lose a few of his core guys not only in the 'Nash trade' itself, but his cap hit would perhaps force Chia to lose core guys to free agency. My guess is Seguin gets signed to a 5 to 7yr deal this season at a cap hit of $5.5m to $6m per. If Marchand cracks 30 goals you can bet he's gonna want a bump in pay. IF Horton remains healthy & scores close to 30g maybe Chia will want to resign him? Lots of scenarios can play out, Id rather Chia use his capspace now on a vet w/ short term deals, that way he can re-sign his core players, all while the youngsters (Hamilton Knight spooner Koko) get acclimated to the pro game. Having Nash and his 7.8m caphit could prevent that.

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06-21-2012, 10:20 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by NYCBruin View Post
I would remove Umberger from the equation. Not needed. After subtracting Looch and Caron Nash will only hit you around $3 Million more than current roster. Getting rid of Thomas free's up 5 Million right away. If you look ahead 5 years the 7.8 Million will not look so large...this happens all the time. You have to give to get, otherwise sit in mediocrity.
So if you remove Umberger, what's the trade look like at that point.

I wouldn't make any kind of Nash deal until after 7/1 when the Bruins can start having extension discussions with Lucic, Marchand, and most importantly Seguin. Feel their situations out, if one of the first two starts sounding like they're going to be a problem to re-sign, then I start having conversations about a Nash trade. Not a minute before.

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06-21-2012, 10:21 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by NYCBruin View Post
I would remove Umberger from the equation. Not needed. After subtracting Looch and Caron Nash will only hit you around $3 Million more than current roster. Getting rid of Thomas free's up 5 Million right away. If you look ahead 5 years the 7.8 Million will not look so large...this happens all the time. You have to give to get, otherwise sit in mediocrity.
Mediocrity?????

Boston finished at almost the top of the Eastern Conference.

Despite having their 1st line RW out to injury, they came within one victory from advancing to the next round. One bad series (even though Washington series was close) doesnt erase how this team has grown & improved the past few years. They wont win the Cup every season. You dont dismantle your core because you lose a playoff round.

You dont see Holland trading off Datsyuk or Zetterberg or Franzen or Lidstrom because they lost a playoff round. Holland looked to make 'tweaks' every off season, adding pieces to his core.

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06-21-2012, 10:25 AM
  #59
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The upgrade from Lucic to Nash is not worth a 1st, our two best forward prospects, a former first round 21 year old prospect, and a salary dump wildcard.

Lucic is on par with what Nash has been doing for the past couple of years. Lucic actually gives you MORE with less playing time than Nash's 19/20 minutes a night.

Nash is a hell of a shooter. I wish we had someone who could go out and shoot the puck over 300 times a season. With the way Julien rotates his lines and distributes ice-time, it's unlikely we'll see that anytime soon.

If some of you think Lucic plays lackluster at times, you're in for a rude awakening after watching Nash every game. IMO the only three things that Nash has on Lucic is that he's a better skater, better stick handler, and gets his shot off more. Those clamoring for trading Lucic will be the same ones crying that we don't have a true power forward.

Lucic is the best power forward in the game right now and the only true throwback to when power forwards were men and not these silly man purse wearing, won't fight you but I'll shove you and look angry while doing it, hybrid ***** versions of today's NHL. You don't trade that away; you build around it.

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06-21-2012, 10:27 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
I know everyones getting on that proposal but I can see his reasoning.

Assume you have to give something to get them to take Thomas' cap hitand he and the first balance each other out. Then it becomes Lucic, Caron, Knight, Spooner for Nash and Umberger.

Lucic, Knight for Nash.
Spooner, Caron for Umberger.

Doesn't look as crazy looking at it like that in fact I highly doubt that would be something that would at all interest Columbus, but I'm of the mind that I wouldn't deal Lucic. We're already weak on the left side and he's a game changer at times. Not a guy I ever want to see Boston part with unless its part of a deal for a guy like Ovechkin.
There is no way in hell I give up a first just to shed TT's Cap hit. I'd rather Chia used Savard's LTIR money.

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06-21-2012, 10:28 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
I dont see it that way,, I see Lucic as a perennial 25-30 goal scorer,, it's safe to assume Seguin will be scoring 30-40 goals regularly, Marchand scored mid-20's this year & can most likely maintain that. The Bruins already have their core in place, a core that won the Cup mind you. Ofcourse Nash is extremely talented, but reality is he's a mid-30's goal scorer, he doesnt score 40 regularly, he never flirted w/ 50 goals,, he's good for 10 more goals than Lucic per year. However imo the biggest obstacle is his cap hit,, it would force Chia to lose a few of his core guys not only in the 'Nash trade' itself, but his cap hit would perhaps force Chia to lose core guys to free agency. My guess is Seguin gets signed to a 5 to 7yr deal this season at a cap hit of $5.5m to $6m per. If Marchand cracks 30 goals you can bet he's gonna want a bump in pay. IF Horton remains healthy & scores close to 30g maybe Chia will want to resign him? Lots of scenarios can play out, Id rather Chia use his capspace now on a vet w/ short term deals, that way he can re-sign his core players, all while the youngsters (Hamilton Knight spooner Koko) get acclimated to the pro game. Having Nash and his 7.8m caphit could prevent that.
Again, Marchand and Lucic maintaining their current pace means they are less than what Nash is. Seguin developing means he'd be what he is, but again, that's if he continues to improve. Which was what I said before. So I don't see how that invalidates what my point was.

So again, you can dislike the money and length of Nash's deal (I know I do), but he brings a skill set that nobody on the team currently possesses. Seguin could become that, but he's not there yet. Marchand and Lucic staying the same means that they're still not where Nash is today. Pretty simple, IMO.

All you're talking about is ifs. If Horton stays healthy. If Seguin continues to get better. If Marchand scores 30. If Lucic can maintain, etc. All of that is great, but what happens IF one of those things fails to happen? What IF none of it does? Do you really want to base the success or failure on such a big gamble? I don't. Which is why I want them to upgrade the top 6, whether that's Nash or any other guy with a similar skill set, that would make me far more comfortable.

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Old
06-21-2012, 10:30 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
The upgrade from Lucic to Nash is not worth a 1st, our two best forward prospects, a former first round 21 year old prospect, and a salary dump wildcard.

Lucic is on par with what Nash has been doing for the past couple of years. Lucic actually gives you MORE with less playing time than Nash's 19/20 minutes a night.

Nash is a hell of a shooter. I wish we had someone who could go out and shoot the puck over 300 times a season. With the way Julien rotates his lines and distributes ice-time, it's unlikely we'll see that anytime soon.

If some of you think Lucic plays lackluster at times, you're in for a rude awakening after watching Nash every game. IMO the only three things that Nash has on Lucic is that he's a better skater, better stick handler, and gets his shot off more. Those clamoring for trading Lucic will be the same ones crying that we don't have a true power forward.

Lucic is the best power forward in the game right now and the only true throwback to when power forwards were men and not these silly man purse wearing, won't fight you but I'll shove you and look angry while doing it, hybrid ***** versions of today's NHL. You don't trade that away; you build around it.
Well said, completely agree with everything right here.

The bolded would be spot on too, Lucic is far too valuable to this team and the way this team plays the physical game. There really is no replacing Lucic's game, and since the Bruins are one of the most physical teams, I don't see how trading Lucic benefits this team.

EDIT- Can't bold atm for some reason, the bolded is "Those clamoring for trading Lucic will be the ones crying that we don't have a true power forward."

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06-21-2012, 10:31 AM
  #63
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You have to give to get, otherwise sit in mediocrity.
We kept the core from a Stanley Cup winning team. We lost in 7 games that was the closest series in playoff history. We've won the NE division three out of the past four years. We are in the upper tier of teams in the NHL with a solid core of vets and young players on every front ( fowards, blueline, goaltending ). I don't call that mediocrity. This is a good team, wake up.

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06-21-2012, 10:47 AM
  #64
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Unbelievable. Remind me not to go into any more Nash threads after this. The "grass is greener" syndrome around here is absurd. So Nash is highly coveted. A great player. He also has a full NTC and a $7.8 million cap hit for 6 more years. Honestly, I wouldn't give Looch straight up. And I wish there was a way to stop some posters from enjoying the future success of certain players they just love to crap on if they have a bad game or series.

Let's turn it around. Milan Lucic is coveted by every GM in the league. He's affordable, younger with no NTC, so he can be dealt to any team the Bruins want. "Gotta give to get"....give me a fricking break. Yeah, you do have to give to get. Lucic isn't going to be a piece of a bigger deal for someone. If the Bruins decide to move Lucic, another team is going to have to pay up with some big pieces to pry him away, and we could start a whole bidding war, unlike CBJ and their 6 teams (and I still doubt Nash wants to go to Carolina.)

And this team is not mediocre in the least. Some of you probably take out all your negative cantankerous bulls**t in here so your family doesn't have to deal with it...I do the same too. But this is an excellent hockey team and I'm interested in what Chia does to tweak and improve. Need a lefty-winger shooter for the PP & 3rd line/Horton replacement (A. Kostitsyn, anyone? don't laugh too much, I might convince you)...And Chia's not going to throw his whole team and future into Rick friggin' Nash. Most overrated player on the planet right now. Man I hope my son grows to be 6'4" and can skate well. It's a free pass from criticism and people who don't watch you play think you're some terrifying stud that all bow down to. Rick Nash isn't that guy. He's not worth his cap hit alone, never mind these proposed deals.

If CBJ gets desperate after the draft and an offer of something like Krejci, Caron, Spooner & a 1st would suffice, then I'll think about it. Get Knight & Lucic out of there. And I'm still not thrilled.

But it will be funny to see everybody's head explode when Rick Nash can't walk on water, hardly ever plays a physical game, doesn't have as many moves & creativity as highlight reels suggest, and disappears for stretches of time like most players. You'll be begging for Lucic back. All for what...5 more goals/year and an extra $3-4 million? Eff that.

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06-21-2012, 10:53 AM
  #65
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Again, Marchand and Lucic maintaining their current pace means they are less than what Nash is. Seguin developing means he'd be what he is, but again, that's if he continues to improve. Which was what I said before. So I don't see how that invalidates what my point was.

So again, you can dislike the money and length of Nash's deal (I know I do), but he brings a skill set that nobody on the team currently possesses. Seguin could become that, but he's not there yet. Marchand and Lucic staying the same means that they're still not where Nash is today. Pretty simple, IMO.

All you're talking about is ifs. If Horton stays healthy. If Seguin continues to get better. If Marchand scores 30. If Lucic can maintain, etc. All of that is great, but what happens IF one of those things fails to happen? What IF none of it does? Do you really want to base the success or failure on such a big gamble? I don't. Which is why I want them to upgrade the top 6, whether that's Nash or any other guy with a similar skill set, that would make me far more comfortable.
We are discussing Nash not Malkin.

Nash is a good player but WOW is he being over-hyped here. In the same breathe folks knock Lucic & Krejci etc.. they are praising Nash?

Nash stats since lockout:

05-06: GP 54, G 31, A 23, PTS 54
06-07: GP 75, G 27, A 30, PTS 57
07-08: GP 80, G 38, A 31, PTS 69
08-09: GP 78, G 40, A 39, PTS 79
09-10: GP 76, G 33, A 34, PTS 67
10-11: GP 75, G 32, A 34, PTS 66
11-12: GP 82, G 30, A 29, PTS 59

**Nash has averaged 64 points per season since lockout**

Hasn't cracked 70 points since 08-09 season season, has scored goals in low 30-s the past 3 seasons. THAT'S worth $7.8M,, ++ losing Lucic & Hamilton,, or Krejci & Hamilton? Helll no.

Nash is 28yrs old, he's officially in his prime years. So at this point he is what he is, a low to mid 30's goal scorer who averages points in the mid 60's. I just dont see the hype. Great player, but nowhere near worth the contract or the players rumored to be going in trade.

I for one hope the Rangers overpay for him,, it'll weaken their hold on the Eastern Conference.


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06-21-2012, 11:01 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
We are discussing Nash not Malkin.

Nash is a good player but WOW is he being over-hyped here. In the same breathe folks knock Lucic & Krejci etc.. they are praising Nash?

Nash stats since lockout:

05-06: GP 54, G 31, A 23, PTS 54
06-07: GP 75, G 27, A 30, PTS 57
07-08: GP 80, G 38, A 31, PTS 69
08-09: GP 78, G 40, A 39, PTS 79
09-10: GP 76, G 33, A 34, PTS 67
10-11: GP 75, G 32, A 34, PTS 66
11-12: GP 82, G 30, A 29, PTS 59

Hasn't cracked 70 points since 08-09 season season, has scored goals in low 30-s the past 3 seasons. THAT'S worth $7.8M,, ++ losing Lucic & Hamilton,, or Krejci & Hamilton? Helll no.

Nash is 28yrs old, he's officially in his prime years. So at this point he is what he is, a low to mid 30's goal scorer who averages points in the mid 60's. I just dont see the hype. Great player, but nowhere near worth the contract or the players rumored to be going in trade.

I for one hope the Rangers overpay for him,, it'll weaken their hold on the Eastern Conference.
I never said he was worth losing Lucic + Hamilton, or Krejci + Hamilton. I'd move DK, prospects not named Hamilton, and picks, but I don't want to move Lucic for him straight up let alone add Hammy to that deal. DK is a different story though. I'd do a deal centered around him in a heart beat. I think his raise he's going to get starting next year makes the money Nash makes easier to take on if DK's $5.25 is going back the other way. Hamilton is off limits though, for any trade. He's untouchable, IMO.

FWIW, I'm more interested in adding the skill set Nash brings more so than Nash the player. If they can get a guy like that without overpaying, whether it be Parise, Nash, Iginla, Ryan, etc...then I'm all for it. The top 6 help is what I want, not just another retread for the 3rd line.

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06-21-2012, 11:05 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
We are discussing Nash not Malkin.

Nash is a good player but WOW is he being over-hyped here. In the same breathe folks knock Lucic & Krejci etc.. they are praising Nash?

Nash stats since lockout:

05-06: GP 54, G 31, A 23, PTS 54
06-07: GP 75, G 27, A 30, PTS 57
07-08: GP 80, G 38, A 31, PTS 69
08-09: GP 78, G 40, A 39, PTS 79
09-10: GP 76, G 33, A 34, PTS 67
10-11: GP 75, G 32, A 34, PTS 66
11-12: GP 82, G 30, A 29, PTS 59

**Nash has averaged 64 points per season since lockout**

Hasn't cracked 70 points since 08-09 season season, has scored goals in low 30-s the past 3 seasons. THAT'S worth $7.8M,, ++ losing Lucic & Hamilton,, or Krejci & Hamilton? Helll no.

Nash is 28yrs old, he's officially in his prime years. So at this point he is what he is, a low to mid 30's goal scorer who averages points in the mid 60's. I just dont see the hype. Great player, but nowhere near worth the contract or the players rumored to be going in trade.

I for one hope the Rangers overpay for him,, it'll weaken their hold on the Eastern Conference.
A hold so strong that they haven't represented the Eastern Conference in the Stanley Cup Finals in almost 20 years.

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06-21-2012, 11:05 AM
  #68
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I never said he was worth losing Lucic + Hamilton, or Krejci + Hamilton. I'd move DK, prospects not named Hamilton, and picks, but I don't want to move Lucic for him straight up let alone add Hammy to that deal. DK is a different story though. I'd do a deal centered around him in a heart beat. I think his raise he's going to get starting next year makes the money Nash makes easier to take on if DK's $5.25 is going back the other way. Hamilton is off limits though, for any trade. He's untouchable, IMO.
Krejci is kinda close points-wise to Nash. Imo they are both mid 60's points guys. Krejci will be making $2.55m less per year,, & I give Nash a slight advantage in skill,, but now worth the extra $2.55m per imo.

However if it were a one-for-one swap of Krejci & Nash, I'd do it ONLY if Seguin were ready to be a dependable 2-way top-6 center. Otherwise you're just plugging one hole (scoring winger) & creating another (scoring center).

Im confident Chia stays FAR AWAY from Nash & his monster cap hit.

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06-21-2012, 11:06 AM
  #69
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Mediocrity?????

Boston finished at almost the top of the Eastern Conference.

Despite having their 1st line RW out to injury, they came within one victory from advancing to the next round. One bad series (even though Washington series was close) doesnt erase how this team has grown & improved the past few years. They wont win the Cup every season. You dont dismantle your core because you lose a playoff round.

You dont see Holland trading off Datsyuk or Zetterberg or Franzen or Lidstrom because they lost a playoff round. Holland looked to make 'tweaks' every off season, adding pieces to his core.
They played .500 hockey for 4 of the 6 months last year. that's mediocrity by definition.

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06-21-2012, 11:11 AM
  #70
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A hold so strong that they haven't represented the Eastern Conference in the Stanley Cup Finals in almost 20 years.
Knitt picking arent we. My point is the Rangers are a very solid team, offense, rock solid defense, great coach, Vezina winning goaltender, & they play a Bruins-brand physical game, & they have oodles & oodles of youth in the organization (Kreider Stepan Erixxon Thomas etc..), they will be relevant in the East for a lonng time. Be ready to be battling the Rangers for Eastern Conference supremacy for the next 5 to 10 years.

So IF Howson manages to pull 3 or 4 of those key players from the Rangers, all for a mid 30's goal scoring Nash,, hey I'm all for it.

I'll take my chances of Boston beating Gaborik & Nash in a 7 game series over Stepan, Kreider, etc.. those kids got talent AND grind.

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06-21-2012, 11:12 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Krejci is kinda close points-wise to Nash. Imo they are both mid 60's points guys. Krejci will be making $2.55m less per year,, & I give Nash a slight advantage in skill,, but now worth the extra $2.55m per imo.

However if it were a one-for-one swap of Krejci & Nash, I'd do it ONLY if Seguin were ready to be a dependable 2-way top-6 center. Otherwise you're just plugging one hole (scoring winger) & creating another (scoring center).

Im confident Chia stays FAR AWAY from Nash & his monster cap hit.
Ugh. It's not about points. It's about GOALS. Nash scores them, David Krejci does not. A goal scorer is far more valuable than a guy who piles up points mainly via the assist.

As for your belief that Chia will stay away, I agree. I don't see him adding any real talent up front, no matter who.

The last thing I will say on this is that people here are getting hung up on Nash and his cap hit. I personally don't care about who the player is, just that they bring in someone with the ability to actually score goals. That's the skill set they're lacking. They've got a ton of guys who can put up 50-60 points, and a ton of guys who can potentially score 20+ goals. They don't have anyone who is a threat to score 35+ goals though.

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06-21-2012, 11:14 AM
  #72
Oates2Neely
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Originally Posted by BrainOfJ View Post
They played .500 hockey for 4 of the 6 months last year. that's mediocrity by definition.
Look up regular season records of teams who are fresh off Stanley Cup victories. It's common to have an up and down season after winning.

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06-21-2012, 11:28 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Look up regular season records of teams who are fresh off Stanley Cup victories. It's common to have an up and down season after winning.
It was pretty consistent though. they went on a two month rampage and the rest was consistent .500 hockey. They finished tied for 4th the east because of that run they went on(and being 19-4-1 against the awful conference we are in haha) and if you look at the teams we beat on November and December...they're pretty subpar.

all I'm saying is yes, this team won with a goalie breaking every record out there who is gone now...and a forward group that has changed. If you just "maintain the course", that won't fly...and we saw that this year when the goalie came down to earth and injuries hit. teams are improving around us, ahead of us, and behind us. If we get caught watching the 2011 cup dvd and calling the 2013 team cup champions because they share some players...we'll get no where.

does that mean get Rick Nash? no. but in no way did last season make me confident about maintaining the course going into this season. This isn't a team coming off a cup championship, its a team coming off a first round exit to a lower seeded team.

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Old
06-21-2012, 11:30 AM
  #74
Mr. Make-Believe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GloryDaze4877 View Post
There is no way in hell I give up a first just to shed TT's Cap hit. I'd rather Chia used Savard's LTIR money.
I don't understand why people keep connecting these two things.

They're not related at all. He could find some place for Thomas AND use Savard's cap hit.

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06-21-2012, 11:33 AM
  #75
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Knitt picking arent we.
It is a pretty big nit though...

more of a rhinoceros

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