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Sharks sign Brad Stuart (3 years, $3.6 per)

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Old
06-20-2012, 09:06 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Colin White had one so did Niclas Wallin.
Think DH was mostly referring to multiple term contracts. I don't really have a problem with a NMC/NTC coming with a 1-year contract.

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06-20-2012, 10:52 PM
  #277
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Think DH was mostly referring to multiple term contracts. I don't really have a problem with a NMC/NTC coming with a 1-year contract.
Precisely.

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06-21-2012, 03:36 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Arrch View Post
Hindsight is 20/20. Can you really fault DW for Handzus or White for that matter? There was no telling that we even overpaid for either of them, or that they would be that bad. The NMC for Zeus didn't seem like it mattered much until he completely fell apart halfway through this season.
i was happy about the white signing. yeah that one i dont blame DW for, and i dont think any fan does. but lots were questioning zeus when it happened, esp with the ntc. this board exploded over the wallin and huskins signings. in the end though, hindsight is what matters, cuz history will prove the GM either right or wrong. all us fans do is cheer or gripe, but at the end of the season, well that's what really matters. DW's choices last off season were bad, period. we had our worst season in a decade. we shall see his choices this off-season but the "high-ish" salary for stuart is a bad start and means we cna't do much given the internal cap constraints on this team.

we are not close to elite, we are a borderline playoff team at this point in time. i think fans still think we are elite but we simply aren't. so when you have a mildly disapointing salary knowing that that might be the only big move you can make, well that's disapointing. i mean we might field essentially the same team as last years disaster, minus murray + stuart. does anyone think that's going to be enough?

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06-21-2012, 03:38 PM
  #279
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Because that's now how negotiations work. You don't try to screw the other side, you try to create a win-win situation. $3.6m is a fair price for what the organization will be asking him of.

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06-21-2012, 03:43 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
Because that's now how negotiations work. You don't try to screw the other side, you try to create a win-win situation. $3.6m is a fair price for what the organization will be asking him of.
Except the argument isn't screw him over versus 'fair price'. Three million for Brad Stuart is about what some, including myself, were hoping for. That is not screwing him over.

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06-21-2012, 03:54 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Except the argument isn't screw him over versus 'fair price'. Three million for Brad Stuart is about what some, including myself, were hoping for. That is not screwing him over.
In your opinion. Not Stuart's, clearly. I was hoping for $2.5m, doesn't make it any more realistic.

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06-21-2012, 04:01 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
In your opinion. Not Stuart's, clearly. I was hoping for $2.5m, doesn't make it any more realistic.
That is a straw man argument if I've ever heard one. One, you don't know whether or not he'd feel screwed at either number. Two, your number is not based on anything regarding the market and what drives prices down in the first place. You're just throwing out a number just for argument's sake. 3 mil is a legitimate number when you consider that his open market value is likely 4 million. You then take into account that he doesn't have an open market when he cuts off more than half the league because he wants to be closer to his family and this is his preferred destination. You also take into account a potential movement clause.

The second part is why I'm still withholding judgment on this as it takes a while before this becomes available, if at all, and determines whether it is a fair deal or not. 3.6 mil with a full NMC is not a fair deal. 3.6 with at least a handful of teams to trade him to at any given time would be.

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06-21-2012, 04:04 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Except the argument isn't screw him over versus 'fair price'. Three million for Brad Stuart is about what some, including myself, were hoping for. That is not screwing him over.
It comes down to why (or if) you think $3MM is fair? His '11-'12 stats suggested >$3.5MM was fair per Easy, which is what he got. $3MM would have been preferable, but I find it hard to call that fair.

Edit: we cross posted, but I question why $3MM is really more fair than $3.6MM based on an open market value of $4MM? It ultimately comes down to just how few teams Stuart was willing to limit himself to, and do not know that.


Last edited by Mattb124: 06-21-2012 at 04:09 PM.
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06-21-2012, 04:05 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Mattb124 View Post
It comes down to why (or if) you think $3MM is fair? His '11-'12 stats suggested >$3.5MM was fair per Easy, which is what he got. $3MM would have been preferable, but I find it hard to call that fair.
And if I'm not mistaken that 3.5 mil price easy referred to was open market numbers w/o clauses. Clauses definitely lower the price and generally preferred destinations do as well.

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06-21-2012, 04:09 PM
  #285
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As I've said before, imo anything above $3.25 that included a NMC... I would have passed.

$3.6 is fair as long as he has no clauses. I just find that REALLY hard to believe. Wilson traded him once, he came here to be with his family, he's going to ask for a clause.

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06-21-2012, 04:20 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
As I've said before, imo anything above $3.25 that included a NMC... I would have passed.

$3.6 is fair as long as he has no clauses. I just find that REALLY hard to believe. Wilson traded him once, he came here to be with his family, he's going to ask for a clause.
too many people forgetting we weren't forced to sign him. i wouldve erred on the side of not signing him simply cuz of that 7th we are giving up. our cap situation is not good either, now we have 11 mil to sign the entirety of our 3rd and 4th lines. and that's assuming that the cap acutally is 70mil (new cba) and we don't have an internal cap at like 65. and the ntc is a killer. we are getting screwed by these ntcs now as we have zero freedom to move guys like zeus.

ppl making the excuse 'well you don't know what negotiations were like' are completely missing the point. if stuart said '3.6 or i walk' then dw always has the option of walking. and somehow i highly doubt stuart wuold be ilke '3.25? w/ ntc? i can't take care of my family off 10 million dollars! i'd rather not see them for the next 3 years than not get that extra 300k!"

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06-21-2012, 04:23 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by endy View Post
'7th is a worthless pick' it's not. guys like pavs, nabby, winnik, demers, murray, niemi, boyle and othes of our current roster were 7th or beyond or undrafted picks.
A handful of 7th round successes when compared to the hundreds that have been drafted in that category isn't very promising. If you want to talk about our track record with 7th rounders, then you can't include Boyle, Winnik or Niemi. Wingels was also a 6th rounder, so you have Pavs (03), Nabby (94), Murray (99), and Demers (08). That's 4 in nearly two decades. Considering we usually pick up multiple 7ths, it's not that impressive.
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suter? no way. might have been unlikely before but now it's super unlikely to impossible. this could be the biggest move of our cap-constrained off season. is it enough?
Don't kid yourself, it was nearly impossible even before the Stuart signing.

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06-21-2012, 04:31 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Arrch View Post
A handful of 7th round successes when compared to the hundreds that have been drafted in that category isn't very promising. If you want to talk about our track record with 7th rounders, then you can't include Boyle, Winnik or Niemi. Wingels was also a 6th rounder, so you have Pavs (03), Nabby (94), Murray (99), and Demers (08). That's 4 in nearly two decades. Considering we usually pick up multiple 7ths, it's not that impressive.
don't forget justin braun, frazer mclaren too. that's a hearty compliment of players is it not. and by that standard, we only have two sj first rounders still playing with us - marleau and couture. well i guess stuart counts now too. and we only have 1 2nd rounder still playing with us - vlassic.

so our home grown 7th rounders number pavs, murray, demers, bruan, and mclaren, which exceeds our homegrown 1st AND 2nd rounders combined.

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06-21-2012, 04:34 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Arrch View Post
A handful of 7th round successes when compared to the hundreds that have been drafted in that category isn't very promising. If you want to talk about our track record with 7th rounders, then you can't include Boyle, Winnik or Niemi. Wingels was also a 6th rounder, so you have Pavs (03), Nabby (94), Murray (99), and Demers (08). That's 4 in nearly two decades. Considering we usually pick up multiple 7ths, it's not that impressive.

Don't kid yourself, it was nearly impossible even before the Stuart signing.
It isn't impossible to sign Suter even now. It's unlikely based on his rumored preferences.

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06-21-2012, 04:39 PM
  #290
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Signing Suter is irrelevant. They'll simply trade Boyle if that comes to pass, not an issue.

Plus they very ewll may trade Clowe, Niemi, Pavelski, Murray, etc. We have more cap space than we need. I'm not really concerned about that in the slightest.

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06-21-2012, 04:44 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Signing Suter is irrelevant. They'll simply trade Boyle if that comes to pass, not an issue.

Plus they very ewll may trade Clowe, Niemi, Pavelski, Murray, etc. We have more cap space than we need. I'm not really concerned about that in the slightest.
this isn't true at all. we trade clowe, niemi, we need to sign someone to replace them. that's even assuming the cap stays at 70 million and we spend to the cap, neither of which i would even call extremely likely. new cba could lower the cap to 65 mil and that might be our internal cap anyway (we didn't spend to cap last season).

assuming we unload murray for picks,we still need to resign bruan (RFA), a 7th dman, re-up winnik i guess, resign galiardi, desjardins, and fill out 4 other slots. if we trade away pavs or clowe, then we have to find a top 6 for the roughly the same price (HIGHLY unlikely) or we are in even worse cap hell. if the cap gets lowered to or if our internal cap is 65, then we are in horrible horrible shape. unless you consider trading clowe or neimi for picks as being a good thing.

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06-21-2012, 04:57 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by endy View Post
this isn't true at all. we trade clowe, niemi, we need to sign someone to replace them. that's even assuming the cap stays at 70 million and we spend to the cap, neither of which i would even call extremely likely. new cba could lower the cap to 65 mil and that might be our internal cap anyway (we didn't spend to cap last season).

assuming we unload murray for picks,we still need to resign bruan (RFA), a 7th dman, re-up winnik i guess, resign galiardi, desjardins, and fill out 4 other slots. if we trade away pavs or clowe, then we have to find a top 6 for the roughly the same price (HIGHLY unlikely) or we are in even worse cap hell. if the cap gets lowered to or if our internal cap is 65, then we are in horrible horrible shape. unless you consider trading clowe or neimi for picks as being a good thing.
There are a lot more variables than you're bringing up. One, Niemi being dumped for a pick and rolling with Greiss and Stalock is not a bad way to go and saves the team about 3 million. If there is a cap rollback, there will be salary rollbacks associated with them and it will reflect their cap number accordingly. There is also the small possibility of an amnesty buyout which would save the Sharks 2.5 mil. If we dump Clowe for picks and save that 3.625 mil, sign Suter for 7.5 mil, and trade Boyle for a Clowe replacement, that is a net increase of 700k. The bottom six will all be cheap with the exception being Winnik if he is retained. Galiardi, Desjardins, Sheppard, and Wingels will all cost about 750k at most. Moore would be about 1.5 mil at the most. Winnik 2.5 mil. A 7th d-man is a mil at most.

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06-21-2012, 04:57 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by endy View Post
this isn't true at all. we trade clowe, niemi, we need to sign someone to replace them. that's even assuming the cap stays at 70 million and we spend to the cap, neither of which i would even call extremely likely. new cba could lower the cap to 65 mil and that might be our internal cap anyway (we didn't spend to cap last season).

assuming we unload murray for picks,we still need to resign bruan (RFA), a 7th dman, re-up winnik i guess, resign galiardi, desjardins, and fill out 4 other slots. if we trade away pavs or clowe, then we have to find a top 6 for the roughly the same price (HIGHLY unlikely) or we are in even worse cap hell. if the cap gets lowered to or if our internal cap is 65, then we are in horrible horrible shape. unless you consider trading clowe or neimi for picks as being a good thing.
Calm down man, you really are going overboard here. We do not have an internal cap, the owners JUST said as much.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
T.J. Galiardi ($0.735m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Daniel Winnik ($2.500m) / Dominic Moore ($1.500m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.900m)
Andrew Desjardins ($0.594m) / James Sheppard ($0.761m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.667m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Brad Stuart ($3.600m) / Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $58,779,417; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (19-man roster): $11,520,583

That's just Clowe, Murray, and Handzus out. Still have 11 million to sign anyone we want, and if it's Suter we can trade Boyle and still have tons of cap space left.

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06-21-2012, 05:03 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Calm down man, you really are going overboard here. We do not have an internal cap, the owners JUST said as much.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
T.J. Galiardi ($0.735m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Daniel Winnik ($2.500m) / Dominic Moore ($1.500m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.900m)
Andrew Desjardins ($0.594m) / James Sheppard ($0.761m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.667m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Brad Stuart ($3.600m) / Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $58,779,417; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (19-man roster): $11,520,583

That's just Clowe, Murray, and Handzus out. Still have 11 million to sign anyone we want, and if it's Suter we can trade Boyle and still have tons of cap space left.
1. thats an awful roster, significantly worse than what we had last season. we might not make the playoffs at all with that. tj as our 2nd line wing?

2. that assumes we can magically rid ourselves of handzus. how? he has an ntc if you forgot. and your resigns look way too low. this entire thread is dedicated to how DW overpays, so add at least a few million to your estimates. galiardi might be bad but i don't think he's going to just take his QO.

3. we didn't spend to cap last season and i dont think we will approach 70 mil this season. i will be surprised if we go over 65 million in between cba and what we spend up to. why od you even listen to what they say and assume it's true? do you actually think we are going to spend 70 million?

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06-21-2012, 05:08 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by endy View Post
1. thats an awful roster, significantly worse than what we had last season. we might not make the playoffs at all with that. tj as our 2nd line wing?

2. that assumes we can magically rid ourselves of handzus. how? he has an ntc if you forgot. and your resigns look way too low. this entire thread is dedicated to how DW overpays, so add at least a few million to your estimates. galiardi might be bad but i don't think he's going to just take his QO.

3. we didn't spend to cap last season and i dont think we will approach 70 mil this season. i will be surprised if we go over 65 million in between cba and what we spend up to. why od you even listen to what they say and assume it's true? do you actually think we are going to spend 70 million?
Seriously?

There is $11 million to sign a new 2nd line winger, good lord dude. I don't plan on TJ being on the second line, capgeek just doesn't let you leave blanks.

Handzus will be gone, one way or another.

We didn't spend to the cap because most teams didn't spend to the cap. There was a bunch of extra cap space and we literally didn't have a need to spend it.

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06-21-2012, 05:10 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
There are a lot more variables than you're bringing up. One, Niemi being dumped for a pick and rolling with Greiss and Stalock is not a bad way to go and saves the team about 3 million. If there is a cap rollback, there will be salary rollbacks associated with them and it will reflect their cap number accordingly. There is also the small possibility of an amnesty buyout which would save the Sharks 2.5 mil. If we dump Clowe for picks and save that 3.625 mil, sign Suter for 7.5 mil, and trade Boyle for a Clowe replacement, that is a net increase of 700k. The bottom six will all be cheap with the exception being Winnik if he is retained. Galiardi, Desjardins, Sheppard, and Wingels will all cost about 750k at most. Moore would be about 1.5 mil at the most. Winnik 2.5 mil. A 7th d-man is a mil at most.
there is no rollback, it would have to be negotiated and the PA might not like that at all. you defintitely can't count on it. sure if we dump our players of picks and resign cheap options then there's no cap problem but then our team is EVEN worse.

here is the bottom line. i want a cup contending team. right now we are a barely-make-the-playoff team. we barely made it last season and went 1-4 in the first round. we are up against the cap, really. if we get rid of our talent for worse options, then our cap situation looks better, our team looks worse. sure we could dump clowe, pavs, and put fairyoh and tj as our top 6 - does anyone see the problem with that?

our roster needs to be improved but the cap situation won't allow us. that is the bottom line. all the moves you guys are talking about are making us worse not better (rolling with griess instead of neimi, dumping clowe and putting tj as our 2nd line, etc).

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06-21-2012, 05:11 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Calm down man, you really are going overboard here. We do not have an internal cap, the owners JUST said as much.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
T.J. Galiardi ($0.735m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Daniel Winnik ($2.500m) / Dominic Moore ($1.500m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.900m)
Andrew Desjardins ($0.594m) / James Sheppard ($0.761m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.667m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Brad Stuart ($3.600m) / Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $58,779,417; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (19-man roster): $11,520,583

That's just Clowe, Murray, and Handzus out. Still have 11 million to sign anyone we want, and if it's Suter we can trade Boyle and still have tons of cap space left.
I have this feeling that DW has something up his sleeve to rid us of Handzus, if not just buy him out. I'm also kinda under the impression that he's going to try and improve on the wings by upgrading on Clowe's spot There aren't that many players available that are upgrades, maybe he has a trade in mind.

Or maybe he signs Langenbrunner, Parise's best bud in order to convince him to sign here to play team USA with Pavelski!

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06-21-2012, 05:15 PM
  #298
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don't forget justin braun, frazer mclaren too. that's a hearty compliment of players is it not. and by that standard, we only have two sj first rounders still playing with us - marleau and couture. well i guess stuart counts now too. and we only have 1 2nd rounder still playing with us - vlassic.

so our home grown 7th rounders number pavs, murray, demers, bruan, and mclaren, which exceeds our homegrown 1st AND 2nd rounders combined.
McLaren doesn't belong in the category of 7th round gems.

You're also discounting all the 1st rounders we traded away. Thornton cost us 2 1st rounders, 3 for burns, 2 for Havlat (through Heatley), we wasted 1 on Campbell.

If you want to argue that he's overpaid and we would have been better off not signing him for the amount we did, fine, but to suggest the 7th was a hefty price to pay is ridiculous.

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06-21-2012, 05:15 PM
  #299
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there is no rollback, it would have to be negotiated and the PA might not like that at all. you defintitely can't count on it. sure if we dump our players of picks and resign cheap options then there's no cap problem but then our team is EVEN worse.

here is the bottom line. i want a cup contending team. right now we are a barely-make-the-playoff team. we barely made it last season and went 1-4 in the first round. we are up against the cap, really. if we get rid of our talent for worse options, then our cap situation looks better, our team looks worse. sure we could dump clowe, pavs, and put fairyoh and tj as our top 6 - does anyone see the problem with that?

our roster needs to be improved but the cap situation won't allow us. that is the bottom line. all the moves you guys are talking about are making us worse not better (rolling with griess instead of neimi, dumping clowe and putting tj as our 2nd line, etc).
You have to remember that there are only so many roster spots. We aren't going to start sticking $5m players in third line rolls just because we have the cap space either.

We have 6 top-6 spots, if a new top6 is brought it, someone is going out. If someone goes out, the net cap hit is less. $11m is a LOT of cap space to work with.

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06-21-2012, 05:17 PM
  #300
gonegonegone*
 
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Seriously?

There is $11 million to sign a new 2nd line winger, good lord dude. I don't plan on TJ being on the second line, capgeek just doesn't let you leave blanks.

Handzus will be gone, one way or another.

We didn't spend to the cap because most teams didn't spend to the cap. There was a bunch of extra cap space and we literally didn't have a need to spend it.
so let's say we spend to 65 which seems to be much more likely. with your roster i'm going to add 2 million-ish to get to 61 since there is no way we sign those guys for your prices (this entire thread is about DW and his overpaying ways for goodness sake.). on top of that i am not convinced zeus is out. he has an ntc and dw has basically said he would never pull a watshisface again by sending him to wors. seriously whos going to take zeus anyway? come on. so let's add 2.5 to that. now we are at 63.5 million. now what? even ot the real cap we are 6.5 away and there's no one to sign on the UFA market to boot. semin? we still need to fill out our depth and backup positions, so that's another 3 million. that brings us up to 66.5. so we have 4 mil for a top 6. and our roster is not any better than last season. we are NOT an elite team, we are a barely-make-the-playoffs team.

edit: the nubmers could be adjusted, but best case we might have 5 mil for a top 6, and that might not be enough for an improvement over clowe. and i will eat my words if dw can make zeus disappear. but our roster as a whole isn't much better than last season's failure. the bottom line for me is that our cap situatio ndoesnt allow us to improve significantly and that's the rub. i wont argue we could field a similar team. you are right in that. but i do not think a similar team is going to cut it. if that is the case, it's time then to be happy to be a playoff team and not expect anything more than that.


Last edited by gonegonegone*: 06-21-2012 at 05:34 PM.
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