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Halak had just carried the Canadiens to a conference final, had over 100 games played, put up numbers just as good as Schneider's and was younger.
Uhh.. Halak had never put up numbers near as good as Schneider's, and since he had no pedigree before his Cinderella run to the ECF many GMs were likely wondering if it was a fluke. He's also a smaller goalie which turns many teams off.
Then you have Schneider: a former 1st round draft pick, winner of an AHL goalie of the year award, has dominated every level he's played, and just dethroned Luongo (a goalie one year removed from a Vezna nomination with top 3 stats since the lockout) from his starting job. People like to relate the two situations, but I'd argue that Schneider is more proven now than Halak was when he was traded. Halak had never played a full season of pro hockey, many wondered if he could adapt to the rigors of it. Couple that with the fact that there have been many "one hit wonder" goalies in the past, and it creates a degree of uncertainty.
I know many people don't want to look at it that way, and there certainly are other ways to interpret the two situations, but personally I think Schneider holds more value than Halak did back then.
No he didn't, and Schneider has more potential then Halak
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luck 6
Uhh.. Halak had never put up numbers near as good as Schneider's, and since he had no pedigree before his Cinderella run to the ECF many GMs were likely wondering if it was a fluke. He's also a smaller goalie which turns many teams off.
Then you have Schneider: a former 1st round draft pick, winner of an AHL goalie of the year award, has dominated every level he's played, and just dethroned Luongo (a goalie one year removed from a Vezna nomination with top 3 stats since the lockout) from his starting job. People like to relate the two situations, but I'd argue that Schneider is more proven now than Halak was when he was traded. Halak had never played a full season of pro hockey, many wondered if he could adapt to the rigors of it. Couple that with the fact that there have been many "one hit wonder" goalies in the past, and it creates a degree of uncertainty.
I know many people don't want to look at it that way, and there certainly are other ways to interpret the two situations, but personally I think Schneider holds more value than Halak did back then.
Only 1 winner in the history of the award for the AHL's best goalie has managed to translate that into success as an NHL starter. (Ryan Miller)
In the 2 years before Halak got traded his team put up 41, and 39 wins, Vancouver has topped 50 in each of Schneider's 2 seasons where he played any significant time. The difference between their save% over those 2 years is .13, but Halak played 79 games to Schneider's 58.
Schneider might have had slightly better numbers but Halak was FAR more proven as a starter, and in my opinion slightly more valuable than Schneider is right now.
Schneider hasn't played more than 33 games in a season yet, nobody knows how he'll stand up to the grind of a full season. The Canucks might end up regretting letting Luongo go.
Only 1 winner in the history of the award for the AHL's best goalie has managed to translate that into success as an NHL starter. (Ryan Miller)
In the 2 years before Halak got traded his team put up 41, and 39 wins, Vancouver has topped 50 in each of Schneider's 2 seasons where he played any significant time. The difference between their save% over those 2 years is .13, but Halak played 79 games to Schneider's 58.
Schneider might have had slightly better numbers but Halak was FAR more proven as a starter, and in my opinion slightly more valuable than Schneider is right now.
Schneider hasn't played more than 33 games in a season yet, nobody knows how he'll stand up to the grind of a full season. The Canucks might end up regretting letting Luongo go.
Only 1 winner in the history of the award for the AHL's best goalie has managed to translate that into success as an NHL starter. (Ryan Miller)
In the 2 years before Halak got traded his team put up 41, and 39 wins, Vancouver has topped 50 in each of Schneider's 2 seasons where he played any significant time. The difference between their save% over those 2 years is .13, but Halak played 79 games to Schneider's 58.
Schneider might have had slightly better numbers but Halak was FAR more proven as a starter, and in my opinion slightly more valuable than Schneider is right now.
Schneider hasn't played more than 33 games in a season yet, nobody knows how he'll stand up to the grind of a full season. The Canucks might end up regretting letting Luongo go.
Not that I think the argument is really relevant either way, but this statement isn't true:
Only 1 winner in the history of the award for the AHL's best goalie has managed to translate that into success as an NHL starter. (Ryan Miller)
In the 2 years before Halak got traded his team put up 41, and 39 wins, Vancouver has topped 50 in each of Schneider's 2 seasons where he played any significant time. The difference between their save% over those 2 years is .13, but Halak played 79 games to Schneider's 58.
Schneider might have had slightly better numbers but Halak was FAR more proven as a starter, and in my opinion slightly more valuable than Schneider is right now.
Schneider hasn't played more than 33 games in a season yet, nobody knows how he'll stand up to the grind of a full season. The Canucks might end up regretting letting Luongo go.
Schneider has already has to face far more travel then Halak ever had to in Montreal and he's been just fine...
Not a single response to my interdivisional blockbuster.
if gagner was 6'3 220 then deal! but no ty, van couver needs skiled/gritty/big top 6 forward not another soft little guy. i like gagner and if van didnt need size id be all over it.
I wasn't the person arguing it makes Schneider more valuable. I was just pointing out that winning that award is essentially meaningless when it comes to NHL success.
Sorry, I missed Felix Potvin and Dwayne Roloson who at least bounced around the league as average starters.
The point is there are more goalies on that list that never played a game in the NHL than there are regular NHL starters.
Potvin was an NHL All-Star. Legace won the Stanley Cup.
Carey was a starter for 1 season, it was a great season, but he flamed out of the league shortly after.
Legace won the cup as a back-up not a starter and never managed to hold on to a starting job at the NHL level.
Potvin granted had success at the NHL level as did Roloson but he was in his 30's when he won it and had already played 4 NHL seasons with 2 different teams.
Only 1 winner in the history of the award for the AHL's best goalie has managed to translate that into success as an NHL starter. (Ryan Miller)
In the 2 years before Halak got traded his team put up 41, and 39 wins, Vancouver has topped 50 in each of Schneider's 2 seasons where he played any significant time. The difference between their save% over those 2 years is .13, but Halak played 79 games to Schneider's 58.
Schneider might have had slightly better numbers but Halak was FAR more proven as a starter, and in my opinion slightly more valuable than Schneider is right now.
Schneider hasn't played more than 33 games in a season yet, nobody knows how he'll stand up to the grind of a full season. The Canucks might end up regretting letting Luongo go.
Which of those other AHL award winners have had the same consistency as Schneider though? He was excellent through 3 years of college, excellent through 3 years in the AHL, and now excellent through 2 years in the NHL. All the other goalies seem to have had a least some average seasons during the first 8 years after they were drafted.
A .13 difference in save percentage is actually quite significant too. .15 is how much Quick was above league average this season. So the difference between Schneider and Halak during that timeframe is nearly as great as the difference between Quick and someone like Niemi this season.
Uhh.. Halak had never put up numbers near as good as Schneider's, and since he had no pedigree before his Cinderella run to the ECF many GMs were likely wondering if it was a fluke. He's also a smaller goalie which turns many teams off.
Then you have Schneider: a former 1st round draft pick, winner of an AHL goalie of the year award, has dominated every level he's played, and just dethroned Luongo (a goalie one year removed from a Vezna nomination with top 3 stats since the lockout) from his starting job. People like to relate the two situations, but I'd argue that Schneider is more proven now than Halak was when he was traded. Halak had never played a full season of pro hockey, many wondered if he could adapt to the rigors of it. Couple that with the fact that there have been many "one hit wonder" goalies in the past, and it creates a degree of uncertainty.
I know many people don't want to look at it that way, and there certainly are other ways to interpret the two situations, but personally I think Schneider holds more value than Halak did back then.
You're way too quick at pulling the gun on Halak. He had played extremely well in the NHL when called upon prior to that run.
Also, you're conveniently forgetting his performances for Slovakia at the Olympics, adding greatly to his stocks.
In my opinion, Schneider, who I like by the way, is one (slight) step behind where Halak was when traded to St. Louis. His value would be similar.
Only 1 winner in the history of the award for the AHL's best goalie has managed to translate that into success as an NHL starter. (Ryan Miller)
In the 2 years before Halak got traded his team put up 41, and 39 wins, Vancouver has topped 50 in each of Schneider's 2 seasons where he played any significant time. The difference between their save% over those 2 years is .13, but Halak played 79 games to Schneider's 58.
Schneider might have had slightly better numbers but Halak was FAR more proven as a starter, and in my opinion slightly more valuable than Schneider is right now.
Schneider hasn't played more than 33 games in a season yet, nobody knows how he'll stand up to the grind of a full season. The Canucks might end up regretting letting Luongo go.
two things:
1) a 0.13 difference is not big if one goalie is 0.860 and the other is 0.873. It just means they both suck. .915 vs. .928 is a whole other ball of wax because you're reaching the upper limit of what any goalie can put up over a significant number of games. It's not a linear relationship and we all know it.
2) the Halak trade was bungled by your former GM. He should have returned more, but incompetence won the day.
You're way too quick at pulling the gun on Halak. He had played extremely well in the NHL when called upon prior to that run.
Also, you're conveniently forgetting his performances for Slovakia at the Olympics, adding greatly to his stocks.
In my opinion, Schneider, who I like by the way, is one (slight) step behind where Halak was when traded to St. Louis. His value would be similar.
Having seen both goaltenders play nearly every game they started prior to Halak's departure. I would have to disagree. Schneider has proven more simply by virtue of how fast he adjusted to the NHL, only to then put up phenomenal numbers as a backup until eventually dethroning Luongo, who as Luck 6 stated, was a year removed from a Vezina nomination. The only exception would be the playoffs, where Halak was out of this world fantastic. Even then he did struggle in a few games, given reason to believe in uncertainty for GMs.
Regardless, practically everyone agrees Montreal was ripped off in how little Halak returned. Gauthier did not start a bidding war and rumors suggest he never even contacted other GMs. Considering more recent trades, namely involving Kaberle and Cammalleri. There stands to be some truth to those claims. Never mind if we date back to Gomez. The latter side of Gainey's tenure was not a pretty sight.
Having seen both goaltenders play nearly every game they started prior to Halak's departure. I would have to disagree. Schneider has proven more simply by virtue of how fast he adjusted to the NHL, only to then put up phenomenal numbers as a backup until eventually dethroning Luongo, who as Luck 6 stated, was a year removed from a Vezina nomination. The only exception would be the playoffs, where Halak was out of this world fantastic. Even then he did struggle in a few games, given reason to believe in uncertainty for GMs.
Regardless, practically everyone agrees Montreal was ripped off in how little Halak returned. Gauthier did not start a bidding war and rumors suggest he never even contacted other GMs. Considering more recent trades, namely involving Kaberle and Cammalleri. There stands to be some truth to those claims. Never mind if we date back to Gomez. The latter side of Gainey's tenure was not a pretty sight.
I strongly disagree. Living in BC and being a fan of both teams, I got to see Schneider as well. There's no denying his talent and potential, but look at the team in front of him, then compare it to the team in front of Halak while in Montreal. That alone should be enough to tip the balance in for Blues goalie's favour.
Then add the fact that Halak was younger than Schneider is now, and his lights out performances in the playoffs and at the Olympics, the highest level of hockey in the world, and I'm being generous when saying that Schneider's value is close.
I think the only ones on that list you can make any case for are Felix Potvin and Manny Legace - both relatively solid guys, but not exactly folks you think of when you think of great goaltending.
Roloson's on the list as well, but he was 30 when he won the award.
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You're way too quick at pulling the gun on Halak. He had played extremely well in the NHL when called upon prior to that run.
Also, you're conveniently forgetting his performances for Slovakia at the Olympics, adding greatly to his stocks.
In my opinion, Schneider, who I like by the way, is one (slight) step behind where Halak was when traded to St. Louis. His value would be similar.
Either way I think the value is close. Some might prefer Halak, personally I think most hockey people have bought into the idea that size matters for goalies and would give the edge to Schneider based on that alone. In the end it's close enough that I cant see the Canucks getting much more in value than what the Habs did. A 1st round pick for sure, probably a decent prospect but not someone guaranteed to be a top 6 forward or top 4 D any time soon maybe a lesser pick or prospect to top it up.
You're way too quick at pulling the gun on Halak. He had played extremely well in the NHL when called upon prior to that run.
Also, you're conveniently forgetting his performances for Slovakia at the Olympics, adding greatly to his stocks.
In my opinion, Schneider, who I like by the way, is one (slight) step behind where Halak was when traded to St. Louis. His value would be similar.
Agree to disagree, I guess. Halak never had a very good S% in any World Championship tournaments for Slovakia, and even in the Olympics he posted a 2.41 GAA coupled with a 0.911 S%. I realize stats don't tell the whole story there as I did watch the games, but it's not as if he was all-worldly.
When Halak was traded, there were quite a few question marks surrounding his game. He had never played a regular season with more than 47 games, he's a smaller goalie, he was a 9th round pick, and his numbers seemed very inconsistant season to season. Then suddenly he strung together a hell of a playoff performance that left you wondering if he had just "broken out" if he would recess the following year.
The positives behind Schneider is in his pedigree. He has dominated every level of hockey he has played at, he's used to the North American game and the rigors of a long regular season, and for the last two seasons he's dominated the NHL in every limited chance he's received. Not only that, but Schneider has a big frame which adds to his higher potential. I'd MUCH rather take a chance on a guy like Schneider rather than a guy like Halak for those reasons.
