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Offseason Thread 2012 II: Offseason Harder

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Old
06-22-2012, 02:21 AM
  #926
phillyflyerfan1992
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I've been a huge Yandle fan for a few years now and he's a #1 powerplay quarterback and a top-pairing even-strength guy if you don't pair him up against Malkin every shift. He has wheels, puck control and a wicked shot. In terms of offensive defensemen, he's elite. He's not going to magically make us better defensively by himself but he can help take the pressure of Timonen and allow him to play a secondary role. Grossmann/Coburn can play shutdown while Yandle drives the offense. He can PK but we shouldn't rely on him for that and we should rely on him to feed our system.

He's an elite offensive defensemen, in the same league as Letang, Karlsson, Campbell, etc. etc. but he's not an elite two-way defensemen. The emergence of OEL has made him expendable as OEL will probably develop into an elite two-way player while Yandle will probably lack the defensive prowess. I'd love to have him though and that $5.25mil cap-hit is a beauty for an offensive workhorse like him. He can log 24 minutes a night and we'll probably have the best offense in the league and probably the best powerplay. Keeping Coburn, Grossmann, and possibly Timonen playing shutdown will be good for the team too.

Yandle's 2010-11 season was fantastic. I doubt Phoenix would actually want to move him unless they truly believe OEL is the next young defensemen to take that leap into elite (like Pietrangelo and Erik Johnson).

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06-22-2012, 02:25 AM
  #927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyflyerfan1992 View Post
He's Carle with a lot more offensive upside.

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=163324

http://video.rangers.nhl.com/videoce...sole?id=143208

Not gonna lie, that Gaborik goal is hilarious. Terrible play.



Not sure how to get those videos to work, but oh well. Hopefully it works.
The question is, were those the only really notable mistakes he had recently?

Actually, I just looked it up, Yandle had 77 giveaways in 82 games and Carle had 55 in 82 games... 22 more than Carle... ouch...

Yandle did have 6 more takeaways (24) than Carle (18).

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Old
06-22-2012, 02:31 AM
  #928
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
The question is, were those the only really notable mistakes he had recently?

Actually, I just looked it up, Yandle had 77 giveaways in 82 games and Carle had 55 in 82 games... 22 more than Carle... ouch...

Yandle did have 6 more takeaways (24) than Carle (18).
Yandle doesn't play on the PK and is about as good as Carle defensively. Flyers fans can cheer this guy on right now but i wouldn't be surprised if tunes change if he were traded here after watching him play half the season with the flyers..

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Old
06-22-2012, 02:34 AM
  #929
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Are really the only two d-men on the market that would need to be traded for Yandle and Weber?

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Old
06-22-2012, 02:35 AM
  #930
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Now, I don't use CORSI at all but..

Carle's QoC : .585
Yandle's QoC : .637

Carle's GA/60 : 2.33
Yandle's GA/60 : 2.19

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Old
06-22-2012, 02:52 AM
  #931
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Yandle was voted 10 in the HFBoards best d man and people here would not be happy with him?

Morris, OEL, Klesla and Rozsival get the SH minutes for Phoenix.

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06-22-2012, 02:55 AM
  #932
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
Yandle was voted 10 in the HFBoards best d man and people here would not be happy with him?

Morris, OEL, Klesla and Rozsival get the SH minutes for Phoenix.
I find if you try to get a #1 d-man but he would rarely be on the PK... I don't know if that should be what we need...

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Old
06-22-2012, 02:55 AM
  #933
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
Yandle was voted 10 in the HFBoards best d man and people here would not be happy with him?

Morris, OEL, Klesla and Rozsival get the SH minutes for Phoenix.
And the flyers fans are heard chanting :

'WE WANT WEBER'

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Old
06-22-2012, 06:38 AM
  #934
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Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
Yandle was voted 10 in the HFBoards best d man and people here would not be happy with him?

Morris, OEL, Klesla and Rozsival get the SH minutes for Phoenix.
Can you please link me these votings? I don't see them anywhere.

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Old
06-22-2012, 06:53 AM
  #935
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Probably more like Schenn, Read, and our 1st.

Maybe we can persuade them that Read is really a C, and that Voracek would fit better with that Czech thing they have going there (Hanzel, Vrbata, Klesla).

No?

Crap.

It is odd--I'm not feeling quite as enthusiastic about this as everyone else seems to be. Maybe it is the Bryzgalov effect? I see Yandle and I wonder if he's benefited from playing in a system that doesn't, you know, consistently leave defenseman exposed.

Don't get me wrong, I know he's a clear upgrade on what we have. I guess I'm a just a bit skiddish.
Is he really worth more than Mike Richards though? I'm kind of leery about trading away multiple roster players. I also share the same worries, that he's going to get here and be like Mike Green without as much offense. I'd like another guy that can move the puck, but I'd prefer it'd be someone with a little more defensive ability even at the expense of offense, kind of similar to Coburn.

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06-22-2012, 07:16 AM
  #936
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Is he really worth more than Mike Richards though? I'm kind of leery about trading away multiple roster players. I also share the same worries, that he's going to get here and be like Mike Green without as much offense. I'd like another guy that can move the puck, but I'd prefer it'd be someone with a little more defensive ability even at the expense of offense, kind of similar to Coburn.
Yandle almost put up 60 points in Phoenix, I wouldn't worry about him not putting up offensive numbers in our system. I agree with you though that he's not going to come in and provide a #1 defenseman type defense, but in my opinion it would still be worth it to trade for him because he is the perfect replacement for Timonen.

Yandle excels at playing the PPQB at the middle of the blueline, like Timonen, and like Timonen he has a hard accurate shot that he gets on net. I think people are forgetting how important that player is to our offense. When Timonen was injured, our powerplay looked awful because we did not have that guy who can control the powerplay and play catch with Giroux at the half-wall. Matt Carle has proven he is not that player, as he seems to struggle not having his shot blocked and getting it to the goalie.

Our powerplay was great last year because we had 2 guys (Giroux and Timonen) who could feed the puck to each other and get it on net, so that the bigger-bodied Hartnell and Simmonds could score on the rebounds. Without that second guy who can run the point and get shots on net with Giroux, our powerplay is going to struggle when Timonen retires.

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06-22-2012, 07:32 AM
  #937
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I agree he'd be a good offensive player. I said Mike Green with less offense, referring to 70+ point Mike Green. I also agree that he'd be probably be very helpful on the PP, but he wouldn't be a replacement for Timonen because Timonen plays the PK, and is really good defensively.

We got Schenn, Simmonds, and a 2nd for Richards. We'd be giving Schenn, Read, and a 1st for Yandle. Schenn, Simmonds = Schenn, Read, so we'd be giving more for Yandle than we got for Richards.

Do you think Yandle is worth that? Would you trade Richards + 1st, for Yandle + 2nd?

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06-22-2012, 07:33 AM
  #938
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Yandle is a dynamic offensive player on the blueline. He'll put up some points on the Flyers from the back end. But those that don't like Carle due to his physical game and turnovers, really won't like Yandle. And what will be the cost to obtain Yandle? As an all around player, there isn't a lot of difference between Yandle and Carle. Carle is a better defender and a better shot blocker. Yandle is a better goal scorer, and PP player. Based on what it likely to be a high cost to obtain him. I'd re-sign Carle and pass on Yandle.

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06-22-2012, 07:34 AM
  #939
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I come here this morning dumbfounded. People have been lamenting our inability to find a number 1 defenseman... Suddenly a 25-year old, top-10 (at worst 15) two-way defenseman appears on a below-market contract... and people are concerned that he's not Chris Pronger? Seriously?

Yandle isn't Chris Pronger and isn't Shea Weber. Neither is anyone else in the league imo. Yandle would become our number 1 defender next season, an excellent pairing partner for Timmonen, and still allow us to pursue Weber with fervor next season.

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06-22-2012, 07:42 AM
  #940
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
I come here this morning dumbfounded. People have been lamenting our inability to find a number 1 defenseman... Suddenly a 25-year old, top-10 (at worst 15) two-way defenseman appears on a below-market contract... and people are concerned that he's not Chris Pronger? Seriously?

Yandle isn't Chris Pronger and isn't Shea Weber. Neither is anyone else in the league imo. Yandle would become our number 1 defender next season, an excellent pairing partner for Timmonen, and still allow us to pursue Weber with fervor next season.
Is he worth the cost of trading more than we got for Richards?

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06-22-2012, 07:43 AM
  #941
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We got Schenn, Simmonds, and a 2nd for Richards. We'd be giving Schenn, Read, and a 1st for Yandle. Schenn, Simmonds = Schenn, Read, so we'd be giving more for Yandle than we got for Richards.

Do you think Yandle is worth that? Would you trade Richards + 1st, for Yandle + 2nd?
Way too much to give up for me. We need a defensive defenseman, Yandle would be a great a addition but not at the cost of Schenn and that package. Not sure why they need to make a big splash this year on the backend when they could bolster their depth with a more stay at home guy similar to Grossmann while adding even more offensive firepower.

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06-22-2012, 07:44 AM
  #942
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
I agree he'd be a good offensive player. I said Mike Green with less offense, referring to 70+ point Mike Green. I also agree that he'd be probably be very helpful on the PP, but he wouldn't be a replacement for Timonen because Timonen plays the PK, and is really good defensively.

We got Schenn, Simmonds, and a 2nd for Richards. We'd be giving Schenn, Read, and a 1st for Yandle. Schenn, Simmonds = Schenn, Read, so we'd be giving more for Yandle than we got for Richards.

Do you think Yandle is worth that? Would you trade Richards + 1st, for Yandle + 2nd?

I think that is fair value. (even though I'd like to trade JvR before Schenn). Richards is a top 15 center in the league and Yandle is a top 15 defenseman. Yes he is not a great defensive defenseman, but he brings speed and puckmoving ability that we are going to need once Timonen retires. It would be a tough deal to make, but I don't think the value is off.

I like Read alot, but I wouldn't mind trading him this offseason either. There is a chance his value will never be any higher. He's coming off a 24 goal rookie season, and has 2 years of an ELC left. What happens if he has a Sophomore slump next year and only gets 15 goals and 35 points? He becomes a 27 year old 35-40 point player. His value would plummet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite
I come here this morning dumbfounded. People have been lamenting our inability to find a number 1 defenseman... Suddenly a 25-year old, top-10 (at worst 15) two-way defenseman appears on a below-market contract... and people are concerned that he's not Chris Pronger? Seriously?

Yandle isn't Chris Pronger and isn't Shea Weber. Neither is anyone else in the league imo. Yandle would become our number 1 defender next season, an excellent pairing partner for Timmonen, and still allow us to pursue Weber with fervor next season.
Yea I agree with this. I'd trade for Yandle and then see next season what available defenseman are on the free agent market.

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Old
06-22-2012, 07:46 AM
  #943
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Yandle is a dynamic offensive player on the blueline. He'll put up some points on the Flyers from the back end. But those that don't like Carle due to his physical game and turnovers, really won't like Yandle. And what will be the cost to obtain Yandle? As an all around player, there isn't a lot of difference between Yandle and Carle. Carle is a better defender and a better shot blocker. Yandle is a better goal scorer, and PP player. Based on what it likely to be a high cost to obtain him. I'd re-sign Carle and pass on Yandle.
The difference between Yandle's offensive abilities and Carle offensive abilities is considerably different than their respective defensive abilities. Last season, Carle was better by statistical measure than Yandle defensively. The year before, Yandle was better by a measure of those same statistics (Corse Rel QoC)

In those same two years, Yandle outscored Carle 102 to 78.

Yandle is signed for what will end up as a comparable contract to Carle and is considerably younger.

That said, nothing about a deal for Yandle changes my opinion that we should be trying to resign Carle. If we could achieve both, I probably look to move Mezsaros this offseason.

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06-22-2012, 07:49 AM
  #944
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
The difference between Yandle's offensive abilities and Carle offensive abilities is considerably different than their respective defensive abilities. Last season, Carle was better by statistical measure than Yandle defensively. The year before, Yandle was better by a measure of those same statistics (Corse Rel QoC)

In those same two years, Yandle outscored Carle 102 to 78.

Yandle is signed for what will end up as a comparable contract to Carle and is considerably younger.

That said, nothing about a deal for Yandle changes my opinion that we should be trying to resign Carle. If we could achieve both, I probably look to move Mezsaros this offseason.
There is no doubt that Yandle is a better and more dynamic offensive defenseman then Carle is. And better suited to play the point on the PP then Carle is.
If they were both UFA's and could be signed to what Yandle is getting now, I'd choose Yandle over Carle. But they're not. If it costs Schenn and something else to get Yandle, I'd pass, and just re-sign Carle. Not worth that price.

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06-22-2012, 07:50 AM
  #945
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Is he worth the cost of trading more than we got for Richards?
Yandle is worth similar to what Richards returned. Impossible to compare as they play different games, positions, etc. Neither are superstars (top 5 in their respective positions), but both are in that tier immediately below.

I don't know what we're trading for Yandle, so I have no idea whether we can compare packages. That said, comparing Read and Simmonds as assets and calling them even is a mistake. Both are solid role players, but Simmonds is both younger and under team control for longer. That makes a difference in assigning value there.

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06-22-2012, 07:52 AM
  #946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
I come here this morning dumbfounded. People have been lamenting our inability to find a number 1 defenseman... Suddenly a 25-year old, top-10 (at worst 15) two-way defenseman appears on a below-market contract... and people are concerned that he's not Chris Pronger? Seriously?

Yandle isn't Chris Pronger and isn't Shea Weber. Neither is anyone else in the league imo. Yandle would become our number 1 defender next season, an excellent pairing partner for Timmonen, and still allow us to pursue Weber with fervor next season.
The question, which I think is fair, is whether Yandle is really a two-way defenseman. Someone on the other board mentioned that he was 18th on his own team in PK.

That said, I don't know that anyone is really _opposed_ to the idea of getting him--just concerned about the potential cost.

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06-22-2012, 07:53 AM
  #947
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There is no doubt that Yandle is a better and more dynamic offensive defenseman then Carle is. And better suited to play the point on the PP then Carle is.
If they were both UFA's and could be signed to what Yandle is getting now, I'd choose Yandle over Carle. But they're not. If it costs Schenn and something else to get Yandle, I'd pass, and just re-sign Carle. Not worth that price.
The fallacy in your argument is that there is a choice. You are right that if our plan was to acquire Yandle (thus costing our roster) and let Carle walk for nothing, we're worse off. In my mind, acquiring Yandle or not acquiring Yandle has absolutely no bearing on my desire to resign Carle... none.

To me, the choice is between Yandle and Gustaffson... or maybe Mezcaros... if you decide you need to move his salary to sign offensive players... which I don't know that we would need to do.

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06-22-2012, 07:54 AM
  #948
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We got Schenn, Simmonds, and a 2nd for Richards. We'd be giving Schenn, Read, and a 1st for Yandle. Schenn, Simmonds = Schenn, Read, so we'd be giving more for Yandle than we got for Richards.
While I don't expect him to pot near 30 every year, don't you think Simmonds value has improved considerably in the past year? (For example, a cadre of Ducks fans wanted Simmonds over JVR or Voracek ind the Ryan thread...)

I don't think you can simply look at the package and assume it represents the same value.

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06-22-2012, 07:56 AM
  #949
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While I don't expect him to pot near 30 every year, don't you think Simmonds value has improved considerably in the past year? (For example, a cadre of Ducks fans wanted Simmonds over JVR or Voracek ind the Ryan thread...)

I don't think you can simply look at the package and assume it represents the same value.
Yea I think Simmonds is definitely more valuable than Matt Read. A ton of Matt Read's value is also tied up in his rookie season, if he slumps next year in the goal scoring department his value would decrease quickly due to his age.

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06-22-2012, 07:57 AM
  #950
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
Yandle is worth similar to what Richards returned. Impossible to compare as they play different games, positions, etc. Neither are superstars (top 5 in their respective positions), but both are in that tier immediately below.

I don't know what we're trading for Yandle, so I have no idea whether we can compare packages. That said, comparing Read and Simmonds as assets and calling them even is a mistake. Both are solid role players, but Simmonds is both younger and under team control for longer. That makes a difference in assigning value there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
While I don't expect him to pot near 30 every year, don't you think Simmonds value has improved considerably in the past year? (For example, a cadre of Ducks fans wanted Simmonds over JVR or Voracek ind the Ryan thread...)

I don't think you can simply look at the package and assume it represents the same value.
Simmonds this year is not the same as Simmonds when we traded for him. I would think Read's value right now is similar to Simmonds' value when the Richards trade was made.

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