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Old
06-22-2012, 08:00 AM
  #951
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
Yandle is worth similar to what Richards returned. Impossible to compare as they play different games, positions, etc. Neither are superstars (top 5 in their respective positions), but both are in that tier immediately below.

I don't know what we're trading for Yandle, so I have no idea whether we can compare packages. That said, comparing Read and Simmonds as assets and calling them even is a mistake. Both are solid role players, but Simmonds is both younger and under team control for longer. That makes a difference in assigning value there.
If that's the cost for Yandle, I'll pass. Not what I'm looking for.

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The fallacy in your argument is that there is a choice. You are right that if our plan was to acquire Yandle (thus costing our roster) and let Carle walk for nothing, we're worse off. In my mind, acquiring Yandle or not acquiring Yandle has absolutely no bearing on my desire to resign Carle... none.

To me, the choice is between Yandle and Gustaffson... or maybe Mezcaros... if you decide you need to move his salary to sign offensive players... which I don't know that we would need to do.
There is no fallacy. Sure there are other choices. But my point was a hypothetical. I'd save those assets to try and obtain a true #1 defenseman.

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Originally Posted by Schenn10 View Post
Yea I think Simmonds is definitely more valuable than Matt Read. A ton of Matt Read's value is also tied up in his rookie season, if he slumps next year in the goal scoring department his value would decrease quickly due to his age.
And if Simmonds slumps next year in goal scoring department, his value doesn't decrease?

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06-22-2012, 08:02 AM
  #952
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Simmonds this year is not the same as Simmonds when we traded for him. I would think Read's value right now is similar to Simmonds' value when the Richards trade was made.
Is that necessarily true though? Simmonds was valued highly (and Homer was quoted as saying this after the trade) that he had much more potential than he showed on the Kings and was put in the correct situations to succeed.

Do you think read has much more potential? He is fast and has an average to above average shot, but he doesnt have off the charts hands, and his vision is so-so. I can't imagine he ever becomes more than a 25-25-50 player. I just see him as almost topping off his potential already.

What are your thoughts?

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06-22-2012, 08:03 AM
  #953
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
If that's the cost for Yandle, I'll pass. Not what I'm looking for.



There is no fallacy. Sure there are other choices. But my point was a hypothetical. I'd save those assets to try and obtain a true #1 defenseman.



And if Simmonds slumps next year in goal scoring department, his value doesn't decrease?
It decreases, but he also would still only be 24 years old. He also adds alot to the table besides goalscoring, he is a big dude, has great hands and presence around the net, and fights. It would decrease, but I can see Simmonds getting alot more chances to have his value rebound than Read.

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06-22-2012, 08:03 AM
  #954
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To follow up, if we could swing a deal around Voracek, Read, and a 2013 2nd (or a prospect) rather than Schenn, Read, and a pick...

FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Danny Briere ($6.500m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m)
Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Eric Wellwood ($0.580m)
Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m) / Ben Holmstrom ($0.750m) / Harry Zolnierczyk ($0.925m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m) /

DEFENSEMEN
Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) / Keith Yandle ($5.250m)
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Marc-Andre Bourdon ($0.875m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.738m) /
GOALTENDERS

Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.667m)
Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,196,944; BONUSES: $3,555,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $7,103,056

Now, I'm not usually one drawn to fantasy scenarios. But there's a pretty obvious hole on that top line. I'd think they could throw a long-term lucrative long-term deal at Parise. If he passes, match whatever another team offers to Jagr for next year.

I don't see the point in resigning Carle, unless we're going to trade Mezsaros--$30 million for the defense seems a bit high.

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06-22-2012, 08:12 AM
  #955
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
To follow up, if we could swing a deal around Voracek, Read, and a 2013 2nd (or a prospect) rather than Schenn, Read, and a pick...

FORWARDS
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Danny Briere ($6.500m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Brayden Schenn ($3.110m) / Wayne Simmonds ($1.750m)
Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Sean Couturier ($1.375m) / Eric Wellwood ($0.580m)
Zac Rinaldo ($0.544m) / Ben Holmstrom ($0.750m) / Harry Zolnierczyk ($0.925m)
Jody Shelley ($1.100m) /

DEFENSEMEN
Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) / Keith Yandle ($5.250m)
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Marc-Andre Bourdon ($0.875m)
Andreas Lilja ($0.738m) /
GOALTENDERS

Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.667m)
Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,196,944; BONUSES: $3,555,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $7,103,056

Now, I'm not usually one drawn to fantasy scenarios. But there's a pretty obvious hole on that top line. I'd think they could throw a long-term lucrative long-term deal at Parise. If he passes, match whatever another team offers to Jagr for next year.

I don't see the point in resigning Carle, unless we're going to trade Mezsaros--$30 million for the defense seems a bit high.
Doesn't Shenn's hit drop to about 1.5 if he plays even one game in the AHL, or something like that? That would give us over $8.5 mill in cap sapce.

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06-22-2012, 08:14 AM
  #956
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Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
Doesn't Shenn's hit drop to about 1.5 if he plays even one game in the AHL, or something like that? That would give us over $8.5 mill in cap sapce.
Or if they simply reinstitute the bonus cushion in the new CBA, which is expected.

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06-22-2012, 08:15 AM
  #957
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Originally Posted by Schenn10 View Post
Is that necessarily true though? Simmonds was valued highly (and Homer was quoted as saying this after the trade) that he had much more potential than he showed on the Kings and was put in the correct situations to succeed.

Do you think read has much more potential? He is fast and has an average to above average shot, but he doesnt have off the charts hands, and his vision is so-so. I can't imagine he ever becomes more than a 25-25-50 player. I just see him as almost topping off his potential already.

What are your thoughts?
Simmonds is younger than Read, but he also was at most a 40 point player prior to the trade. I see them as similar players as far as production goes. 25-25-50 is what I think Simmonds is going to be, but with more physicality than Read. Read adds the speed factor, and decent defense. I see them both as 2nd/3rd line tweeners.

I don't really see much difference between them. I suppose Simmonds has more potential because he's younger, but I don't think he's going to add much more offense than he showed this year. I think Read should improve some as well, but again probably won't provide much more offense than he did this year.

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06-22-2012, 08:18 AM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Simmonds is younger than Read, but he also was at most a 40 point player prior to the trade. I see them as similar players as far as production goes. 25-25-50 is what I think Simmonds is going to be, but with more physicality than Read. Read adds the speed factor, and decent defense. I see them both as 2nd/3rd line tweeners.

I don't really see much difference between them. I suppose Simmonds has more potential because he's younger, but I don't think he's going to add much more offense than he showed this year. I think Read should improve some as well, but again probably won't provide much more offense than he did this year.

It would definitely be a tough decision in regards to giving up that package for Yandle. I'm just really concerned that our powerplay is going to struggle if we can't find that guy to replace Timonen on the point.

Giroux is not a 93 point player without that guy at the point on the powerplay.

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06-22-2012, 08:23 AM
  #959
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Originally Posted by Schenn10 View Post
It decreases, but he also would still only be 24 years old. He also adds alot to the table besides goalscoring, he is a big dude, has great hands and presence around the net, and fights. It would decrease, but I can see Simmonds getting alot more chances to have his value rebound than Read.
There's not a huge difference between 24 and 26. Read also has a lot on the table beside goal scoring. He can play in all situations including on the PK. He brings solid defensive checking, which this team lacks from the forwards. Also Speed and playmaking to the table. Either player could increase or decrease in production. I see Read as the more skilled and talented player. I like both players and what they bring.

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06-22-2012, 08:27 AM
  #960
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
There's not a huge difference between 24 and 26. Read also has a lot on the table beside goal scoring. He can play in all situations including on the PK. He brings solid defensive checking, which this team lacks from the forwards. Also Speed and playmaking to the table. Either player could increase or decrease in production. I see Read as the more skilled and talented player. I like both players and what they bring.
Simmonds is still RFA-controllable for the next few years; Read is UFA after his current contract expires.

That's not an insignificant matter to a budget team, right?

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06-22-2012, 08:30 AM
  #961
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
There's not a huge difference between 24 and 26. Read also has a lot on the table beside goal scoring. He can play in all situations including on the PK. He brings solid defensive checking, which this team lacks from the forwards. Also Speed and playmaking to the table. Either player could increase or decrease in production. I see Read as the more skilled and talented player. I like both players and what they bring.
I just don't think it would be the worst thing in the world for the Flyers to include Read in a package for a player while his value is possibly at its highest. I like Read, but if he can be used as a valuable trading asset I wouldn't be upset if he was traded.

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06-22-2012, 08:30 AM
  #962
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Originally Posted by Schenn10 View Post
It would definitely be a tough decision in regards to giving up that package for Yandle. I'm just really concerned that our powerplay is going to struggle if we can't find that guy to replace Timonen on the point.

Giroux is not a 93 point player without that guy at the point on the powerplay.
That's probably true. The PP was it's best with Giroux, Voracek, and Timonen playing catch. You could put a 5th forward out there, but I don't know about that.

I'd love Yandle with a legit stay at home Dman, but if the price is similar to what's being talked about on here I'm not sure I'd do it. I might be more willing to add a couple picks and see if that could get Weber.

I still think the option that makes most sense is Suter, but I guess it might not be feasible.

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06-22-2012, 09:09 AM
  #963
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I just don't think it would be the worst thing in the world for the Flyers to include Read in a package for a player while his value is possibly at its highest. I like Read, but if he can be used as a valuable trading asset I wouldn't be upset if he was traded.
Never understood the reasoning of trading a player because you fell his value is poosibly at it's highest. Doesn't make much sense.

You make a trade because you feel it makes your team better. And the proposed deals for Yandle, in my opinion, is too much to give up. I'd rather re-sigh Carle and keep Schenn and/or Read.

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06-22-2012, 09:29 AM
  #964
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Never understood the reasoning of trading a player because you fell his value is poosibly at it's highest. Doesn't make much sense.

You make a trade because you feel it makes your team better. And the proposed deals for Yandle, in my opinion, is too much to give up. I'd rather re-sigh Carle and keep Schenn and/or Read.
I think the rationale is that Read's value likely won't get much higher than it is now and he also may not develop any further than he is now. If he tops out at a third line winger, but right now he is being valued by other players as a second line winger, it would benefit the team. It's a risk vs. reward thing. If Homer and Co. think he'll wind up being a staple on this team, then obviously you don't deal him. But if they think he is more of a complimentary and easily replaced guy, while other teams think he is a more valuable asset, you strike while the iron is hot rather than waiting to see what happens and wind up either just letting him go, keeping him for whatever he develops into, or dealing him for less than what you get now. There's really no right or wrong answer when dealing with a guy like that in the here-and-now. If they think he is being overvalued by other orgs and want to cash in because they think he is replaceable, only time will tell if they are right or wrong. If not, they'll hold on to him. It isn't like dealing a guy like Cooter who is 19 and has a higher ceiling.

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06-22-2012, 09:39 AM
  #965
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Yandle is a perfect fit for the system Lavy runs, it will just take a lot to get him. Plus if the Flyers want to move up in the draft which seems possible they will have to trade other assets to do that. We could be in store for one crazy day!

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06-22-2012, 09:43 AM
  #966
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What if the situation is one where the Flyers want to swap Carle for Yandle? Prolly not likely but just a thought..

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06-22-2012, 09:45 AM
  #967
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All I know is that if Holmgren trades Couturier I will cease to judge him positively thus far going forward like I have since the Carter and Richards trade..

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06-22-2012, 09:52 AM
  #968
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Looks like Winnipeg could be interested in Boborovsky if Pavelec goes to the KHL. I'd be happy to work a deal for Bogosian. Bob and a pick for Bogo? Or JVR and Bob for Bogo and a pick? I think he'd be a good fit in Philly and wouldn't cost the earth either

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06-22-2012, 09:54 AM
  #969
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Yandle is a perfect fit for the system Lavy runs, it will just take a lot to get him. Plus if the Flyers want to move up in the draft which seems possible they will have to trade other assets to do that. We could be in store for one crazy day!
Yandle and move up for Nail?

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06-22-2012, 09:55 AM
  #970
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Looks like Winnipeg could be interested in Boborovsky if Pavelec goes to the KHL. I'd be happy to work a deal for Bogosian. Bob and a pick for Bogo? Or JVR and Bob for Bogo and a pick? I think he'd be a good fit in Philly and wouldn't cost the earth either
There is speculation that if we send Bob to Winnipeg (considering they shelled both he and Bryz, it's kind of funny) - we would get their 2nd round (39th overall) in return

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06-22-2012, 09:56 AM
  #971
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Looks like Winnipeg could be interested in Boborovsky if Pavelec goes to the KHL. I'd be happy to work a deal for Bogosian. Bob and a pick for Bogo? Or JVR and Bob for Bogo and a pick? I think he'd be a good fit in Philly and wouldn't cost the earth either
I think you're understating Bogosian's cost.

Winnipeg wouldn't move Bogosian without getting back Schenn or Couturier +. He's pretty much the franchise as far as their concerned. While I doubt he's truly untouchable, he is the single most valued asset the team has (including Kane), so he would not come cheaply.

Last year, when he stock was down, I think JVR + might have been enough. But he played well at times last season, and with Enstrom hitting UFA next year, I don't see it happening.

Bob + Read + a 1st might get you Enstrom--but I don't think that's a particularly wise move.

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06-22-2012, 09:59 AM
  #972
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Bob + Read + a 1st might get you Enstrom--but I don't think that's a particularly wise move.
I do that every day of the week, Enstrom is a stud and would help us greatly on the back line.

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06-22-2012, 10:04 AM
  #973
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I do that every day of the week, Enstrom is a stud and would help us greatly on the back line.
I'm not as high on him--and perhaps I should be.

I just think he's a bit redundant this year with Timonen in the line-up, and so I'd be reluctant to move three decent assets to get him. Next year, as a UFA, to replace Kimmo? Absolutely.

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06-22-2012, 10:04 AM
  #974
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I think you're understating Bogosian's cost.

Winnipeg wouldn't move Bogosian without getting back Schenn or Couturier +. He's pretty much the franchise as far as their concerned. While I doubt he's truly untouchable, he is the single most valued asset the team has (including Kane), so he would not come cheaply.

Last year, when he stock was down, I think JVR + might have been enough. But he played well at times last season, and with Enstrom hitting UFA next year, I don't see it happening.

Bob + Read + a 1st might get you Enstrom--but I don't think that's a particularly wise move.
Ah, okay. Makes sense I guess. I think I was remembering about last year too much. There doesn't seem to be much value in the market for defensemen. Hopefully a few trades today will open it up a bit

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06-22-2012, 10:07 AM
  #975
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I'm not as high on him--and perhaps I should be.

I just think he's a bit redundant this year with Timonen in the line-up, and so I'd be reluctant to move three decent assets to get him. Next year, as a UFA, to replace Kimmo? Absolutely.
If you can move Bob ( a goalie with minimal value on our roster with Bryz and his contract, and who isn't commanding serious interest around the league right now), Read (a valuable cheap asset, but a forward which is a position of depth and strength on this roster), and a lower 1st for a top 20 defenseman, even one who only has a year left on his deal is a trade you need to make.

Then I try to resign him once he's here.

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