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Offseason Thread 2012 II: Offseason Harder

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06-22-2012, 10:08 AM
  #976
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I'm not as high on him--and perhaps I should be.

I just think he's a bit redundant this year with Timonen in the line-up, and so I'd be reluctant to move three decent assets to get him. Next year, as a UFA, to replace Kimmo? Absolutely.
I feel the same way. He is undersized. He plays the game just like Kimmo, but know as well. He rely's a lot on positioning. He doesn't and can't use his weight to really knock people of the puck. Like you said, if Kimmo calls it quits next year and he is available, then yes go for him.

The Flyers are really lacking someone that can clear the porch. We need that big defender who can contribute offensively but also bring the physical aspect of the game with him. That is why I value Bogo and Gudbranson so high. These guys have the potential to be #1 who have an extremely well rounded game+size.

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06-22-2012, 10:12 AM
  #977
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Originally Posted by flyersfan9180 View Post
I feel the same way. He is undersized. He plays the game just like Kimmo, but know as well. He rely's a lot on positioning. He doesn't and can't use his weight to really knock people of the puck. Like you said, if Kimmo calls it quits next year and he is available, then yes go for him.

The Flyers are really lacking someone that can clear the porch. We need that big defender who can contribute offensively but also bring the physical aspect of the game with him. That is why I value Bogo and Gudbranson so high. These guys have the potential to be #1 who have an extremely well rounded game+size.
I don't get this line of reasoning. Kimmo is arguably the best defender on this team in the defensive zone. I get the desire for big guys who can throw big hits and clear the porch, but if a small guy with good positioning can keep the puck out of the net, is that really a problem?

Enstrom is small, but he is also a really good 2-way defenseman who would help this team a lot.

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06-22-2012, 10:15 AM
  #978
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Originally Posted by Schenn10 View Post
If you can move Bob ( a goalie with minimal value on our roster with Bryz and his contract, and who isn't commanding serious interest around the league right now), Read (a valuable cheap asset, but a forward which is a position of depth and strength on this roster), and a lower 1st for a top 20 defenseman, even one who only has a year left on his deal is a trade you need to make.

Then I try to resign him once he's here.
I guess I'm not sold on Enstrom as a top-20 defenseman, but, like I said, I acknowledge that I've never been his biggest fan. I think he is a very good #2 rather than a true number 1. Maybe it is his size that bugs me? I'm not sure it is even a rational position to take.

I don't disagree with your analysis of the value--but all of this is premised on Pavelec bolting and the Jets being fairly desperate to get a goalie. I'm not sure that happens either.

The sense I get from fans is that the Jets would be looking for a Burns-like return (Setoguchi, C. Coyle, and a late 1st (28th). Read, Bob, and the 20th is comparable, so it isn't a bad starting point.


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Originally Posted by Schenn10 View Post
I don't get this line of reasoning. Kimmo is arguably the best defender on this team in the defensive zone. I get the desire for big guys who can throw big hits and clear the porch, but if a small guy with good positioning can keep the puck out of the net, is that really a problem?

Enstrom is small, but he is also a really good 2-way defenseman who would help this team a lot.
My sense has always been that Kimmo was / is a step above Enstrom in his own end, and that Enstrom was a bit better offensively. Do you disagree?

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06-22-2012, 10:23 AM
  #979
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I guess I'm not sold on Enstrom as a top-20 defenseman, but, like I said, I acknowledge that I've never been his biggest fan. I think he is a very good #2 rather than a true number 1. Maybe it is his size that bugs me? I'm not sure it is even a rational position to take.

I don't disagree with your analysis of the value--but all of this is premised on Pavelec bolting and the Jets being fairly desperate to get a goalie. I'm not sure that happens either.

The sense I get from fans is that the Jets would be looking for a Burns-like return (Setoguchi, C. Coyle, and a late 1st (28th). Read, Bob, and the 20th is comparable, so it isn't a bad starting point.


My sense has always been that Kimmo was / is a step above Enstrom in his own end, and that Enstrom was a bit better offensively. Do you disagree?
I think they are both very comparable players. Timonen has obviously kept this level of play up over a longer period of time, but I think at their current ages, they are both comparable players. Both small and use their sticks and body positioning very well in the defensive zone, and have good vision in the offensive zone. They are both also very very smart hockey players, and simply dont make dumb mistakes, and always make the correct play.

He was voted as the #16 defenseman in the league (2 before Timonen at #18) in this end of year Hfboards poll, which shows some of the respect he has around the league.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1212929

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06-22-2012, 10:24 AM
  #980
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Or if they simply reinstitute the bonus cushion in the new CBA, which is expected.
Is Couturier's cap hit affected by that as well?

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06-22-2012, 10:25 AM
  #981
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Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
Is Couturier's cap hit affected by that as well?
I believe his cap hit would go back down to 900k as well, as would Bobrovsky's.

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06-22-2012, 10:45 AM
  #982
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Feeling stingy today.

Liking the idea of trading JVR and a 1st for Yandle (being cheap here) and Mez for a pick.

Then resigning Carle.

Kimmo-Yandle
Grossman-Coburn
Carle-MAB

The idea keeps Schenn and Cooter here and the younger wingers.

Feeling stingier over this cup of coffee this morning.

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06-22-2012, 10:50 AM
  #983
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I think the rationale is that Read's value likely won't get much higher than it is now and he also may not develop any further than he is now. If he tops out at a third line winger, but right now he is being valued by other players as a second line winger, it would benefit the team. It's a risk vs. reward thing. If Homer and Co. think he'll wind up being a staple on this team, then obviously you don't deal him. But if they think he is more of a complimentary and easily replaced guy, while other teams think he is a more valuable asset, you strike while the iron is hot rather than waiting to see what happens and wind up either just letting him go, keeping him for whatever he develops into, or dealing him for less than what you get now. There's really no right or wrong answer when dealing with a guy like that in the here-and-now. If they think he is being overvalued by other orgs and want to cash in because they think he is replaceable, only time will tell if they are right or wrong. If not, they'll hold on to him. It isn't like dealing a guy like Cooter who is 19 and has a higher ceiling.
You don't trade a player for any of those reasons. You trade a player because you think the return makes you a better team. You don't trade a player because you think his value won't get much higher.

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06-22-2012, 11:01 AM
  #984
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
You don't trade a player for any of those reasons. You trade a player because you think the return makes you a better team. You don't trade a player because you think his value won't get much higher.
I think thats the point though. If we feel his value is going to get lower then we should trade him now to maximize his current value and make the team better.

To put it numerically: Say Read has a 3 star value currently, but we feel as if his value wont get any higher or may even regress into 2 star value next year. If we can trade him for another 3 star value player now (whos value won't regress or may even get better in the case of a draft pick), or as part of a package for a 4 or 5 star player then thats what we should do, because it would improve our team.

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Old
06-22-2012, 11:22 AM
  #985
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Originally Posted by Schenn10 View Post
I think thats the point though. If we feel his value is going to get lower then we should trade him now to maximize his current value and make the team better.

To put it numerically: Say Read has a 3 star value currently, but we feel as if his value wont get any higher or may even regress into 2 star value next year. If we can trade him for another 3 star value player now (whos value won't regress or may even get better in the case of a draft pick), or as part of a package for a 4 or 5 star player then thats what we should do, because it would improve our team.
I get the premise. You don't trade a player because you think his value is going to get lower. That's a crapshoot. It could get higher also. You make a trade to make your team better.

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06-22-2012, 11:25 AM
  #986
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Am I the only one who really doesn't want to trade Mez?? I really like his game...

...and I have a Mez jersey and I'm sick of having all these jerseys in my closet of ex-flyers...if Mez gets traded that officially means I'm getting rid of my Giroux jersey (to keep him safe) and I'm buying a Bryz jersey haha

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06-22-2012, 12:06 PM
  #987
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Pens open to moving (but not shopping) Michalek, Orpik, and/or Martin.


Can't imagine they'd trade with us, but I'd LOVE Orpik in O&B.

Rob Rossi‏ @RobRossi_Trib

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Also, hearing #pens not shopping him, but would not rule out moving Orpik in addition to Martin, Michalek #NHLdraft2012

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Old
06-22-2012, 12:45 PM
  #988
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Renaud P Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS
Les Flyers tentent d'améliorer leur sort au repêchage et souhaitent obtenir le 6e choix, celui des Ducks.
Another source saying that we're trying to get the 6th pick from the Ducks.

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06-22-2012, 12:50 PM
  #989
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Everyone is saying we are going hard after the 6th overall pick from the Ducks but also want Bobby Ryan as well.

They want Schenn and supposedly he's not on the table.

I've heard: JvR + read or voracek + 20th overall for Ryan and 6th overall is what is on the table

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06-22-2012, 12:51 PM
  #990
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Originally Posted by FlyersMania2 View Post
Everyone is saying we are going hard after the 6th overall pick from the Ducks but also want Bobby Ryan as well.

They want Schenn and supposedly he's not on the table.

I've heard: JvR + read or voracek + 20th overall for Ryan and 6th overall is what is on the table
That is so tough. I like the trade actually for us, because the Flyers really like TT and if he is available at the spot, the kid is ours.

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06-22-2012, 12:52 PM
  #991
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Originally Posted by FlyersMania2 View Post
Everyone is saying we are going hard after the 6th overall pick from the Ducks but also want Bobby Ryan as well.

They want Schenn and supposedly he's not on the table.

I've heard: JvR + read or voracek + 20th overall for Ryan and 6th overall is what is on the table
Voracek + 20th for Ryan + 6th?

That doesn't seem right.

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06-22-2012, 12:54 PM
  #992
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Voracek + 20th for Ryan + 6th?

That doesn't seem right.
I think he meant it to read Jvr + Voracek/Read + 20th

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06-22-2012, 12:54 PM
  #993
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersMania2
Everyone is saying we are going hard after the 6th overall pick from the Ducks but also want Bobby Ryan as well.

They want Schenn and supposedly he's not on the table.

I've heard: JvR + read or voracek + 20th overall for Ryan and 6th overall is what is on the table
JVR, Read, and the 20th for Ryan and the 6th?

That's, like, laughably bad for Anaheim.

Even if you pretend JVR = Ryan, Matt Read isn't close to enough to move from 20 to 6.

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06-22-2012, 12:55 PM
  #994
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
Voracek + 20th for Ryan + 6th?

That doesn't seem right.
JVR AND either Read or Voracek AND our 20th

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06-22-2012, 12:56 PM
  #995
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
JVR, Read, and the 20th for Ryan and the 6th?

That's, like, laughably bad for Anaheim.

Even if you pretend JVR = Ryan, Matt Read isn't close to enough to move from 20 to 6.
I could agree especially since JvR has yet to look like the #2 overall he is. But if you consider he was what #2 overall and Voracek (was in the top 10 right?), that might average out to a 6 overall lol

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06-22-2012, 12:57 PM
  #996
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It has also been said that for Anaheim to part with Bobby Ryan they REALLY want Schenn.

Homer won't do it.

So, it could very well be we are going to work for the 6th and that's it.

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06-22-2012, 12:59 PM
  #997
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Originally Posted by FlyersMania2 View Post
It has also been said that for Anaheim to part with Bobby Ryan they REALLY want Schenn.

Homer won't do it.

So, it could very well be we are going to work for the 6th and that's it.
JVR + Schenn + 1st for Ryan and 6th

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06-22-2012, 01:02 PM
  #998
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
JVR + Schenn + 1st for Ryan and 6th
Yeah...I heard Holmgren absolutely will not part with Schenn. Who knows, though? No one is ever safe in these parts

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06-22-2012, 01:02 PM
  #999
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JVR + Schenn + 1st for Ryan and 6th
Add Mez, and we're back to my proposal from 3 days ago--that everyone hated, on both sides...

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Old
06-22-2012, 01:20 PM
  #1000
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Originally Posted by FlyersMania2 View Post
Yeah...I heard Holmgren absolutely will not part with Schenn. Who knows, though? No one is ever safe in these parts
The Flyers love Schenn way too much to part with him unless they're totally blown away by an offer. He and Couturier were THE main pieces in the Richards and Carter deals and are two integral building blocks for this team going forward. Just can't see either being flipped a year later.

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