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Flyers interested in Ducks pick - Lavoie

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Old
06-22-2012, 02:08 PM
  #126
TheCerebral1
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At this point it's completely reasonable for the Ducks to ask for Voracek, Schenn and the pick plus Gustaffson for Ryan and the 6th overall. But, while I love Ryan. Is it worth it. Probably not. Things would have to go very "right" for one of the elite defensemen that is ready. It's not a horrible trade and makes sense. I would rather keep Voracek and Schenn.

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06-22-2012, 02:10 PM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schenn10 View Post
I think most of the Flyers fans here realize that. We would like Bobby Ryan, but we realize we don't need him. Most of us would much rather try to trade into the top 10 and draft a high upside defenseman. Thus the interest in the 6th.
Just curious - would you trade a high upside top pairing potential defenseman for JVR's actual salary, production, and injury history? Not being an ass, I'm just not sure why Flyers fans think its such a great deal for Anaheim.

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06-22-2012, 02:10 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schenn10 View Post
I think most of the Flyers fans here realize that. We would like Bobby Ryan, but we realize we don't need him. Most of us would much rather try to trade into the top 10 and draft a high upside defenseman. Thus the interest in the 6th.
This.

And to be honest, if Bobby Ryan was from Regina, SK instead of the Philadelphia area, I don't think he'd get nearly as much attention from the Flyers and fans as he does now. Not that he's not a very good player - he certainly is - but a young, goal scoring winger just isn't a priority at all right now.

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06-22-2012, 02:12 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by ericnut View Post
I can't decide who I'd rather have, JVR or Voracek.

Can a Philly fan weigh in?
JVR.
Both are great athletes. Both are decent size (6'3" @ 215lbs & 6'2" 210lbs) and are probably two of the fastest players also but JVR is a much better finisher. People hound him for this season but the guy played with an injury all seaso besides missing time for a concusssion and broken foot. Before this season he put up numbers playing with next to zero PP time.

I don't get why the Flyers would trade JVR straight up for #6 let alone add to it. There is no one at #6 that is anymore of a lock the JVR.

If it's JVR in a bigger package for #6 & Ryan or Sbisa then it make sense.

Also, I read the Flyers were trying to keep their #20 pick and add another 1st rd pick so I doubt their pick would be included in a deal, if that's true.

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06-22-2012, 02:12 PM
  #130
Ghost of Dale Hunter
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my prediction

Anaheim gets:
Buffalo 1st (12)
Philly 1st
Buffalo 2nd
Sekera

Philly gets
Ryan

Buffalo gets
Anaheim 1st (so they can get Faksa)
JVR

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06-22-2012, 02:15 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckNoire View Post
I quoted his post, but it was addressed to the majority of Flyers fans posting here.
With all due respect, when you operate under the assumption that this is fair:

- JvR
- Schenn
- 20th OV
- Flyers 2013 1st rounder
- Flyers 2013 2nd rounder



- Ryan
- 6th OV




pretty much everything is going to be considering "lowballing". There seems to be a solid consensus that Schenn is worth more then the #6 overall. But list that as equal and your still left with Ryan being worth JvR, 2 #1s and a #2. That's a lot for what looks like 20 more points, if JvR doesn't develop.

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06-22-2012, 02:17 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Just curious - would you trade a high upside top pairing potential defenseman for JVR's actual salary, production, and injury history? Not being an ass, I'm just not sure why Flyers fans think its such a great deal for Anaheim.
What injury hostory? The guy had a sports hernia this season which is common for any hockey player.He played through it all season. He had surgery to fix it. The only time he missed was from a breaking a foot blocking a shot which again could happen to any player and a concussion from a cheap shot. He is hardly injury prone.

There is no one in this draft that has as much pure athletic ability as JVR. They may be better players at some point but people are underestimating him because of one injury hampered season.

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06-22-2012, 02:17 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost of Dale Hunter View Post
my prediction

Anaheim gets:
Buffalo 1st (12)
Philly 1st
Buffalo 2nd
Sekera

Philly gets
Ryan

Buffalo gets
Anaheim 1st (so they can get Faksa)
JVR
So the Flyers give up JVR and their 1st and get Ryan. (Ok)

Buffalo gives up their 1st (12), Sekera, and a 2nd, and gets JVR and the 6th overall?

Anaheim gives up Ryan and the 6th for the 12th, 20th, Sekera, and a 2nd....

WTF?

I think your location is a bit revealing. Even if you assume JVR = #12 (under-stating JVR's value), that works out to Sekera and a 2nd for Bobby Ryan. Really?

Ryan
JVR
6th
12th
Sekera
20th
2nd Rounder

By my count, Buffalo gives up the 4th, 5th, and 7th most valuable assets in the deal... and gets 1st and 3rd most valuable.


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Old
06-22-2012, 02:21 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckNoire View Post
If the Flyers really want Ryan + 6th, you just know either Schenn or Couturier will have to be involved.
More like both+

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Old
06-22-2012, 02:22 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Just curious - would you trade a high upside top pairing potential defenseman for JVR's actual salary, production, and injury history? Not being an ass, I'm just not sure why Flyers fans think its such a great deal for Anaheim.
For the first few years of his deal JvR actually makes pretty close to the possible bonus money the 6th overall would make, and Anaheim isn't a cap team so the cap number doesn't matter all that much.

I think JvR could basically be viewed as a draft pick at this point, because thats basically what teams are trading for. You get a big body, whos fast, skilled, and has a hard accurate shot. I think JvR has about the same potential to realize his talent as the 6th overall does.

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06-22-2012, 02:23 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by gliff View Post
More like both+
You're out of your mind. We're not talking Getzlaf+++ or Fowler+++.


I'm pretty sure Cout gets an auto hang up from Homer.

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06-22-2012, 02:23 PM
  #137
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Ya that last proposal was just god awful.


Anyway like others have said there's got to be more to it because I don't see Ducks giving up the 6th for another winger. We need a center. Although I could see that happening during draft if the guy(s) ducks are targeting with the pick are off the table.

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Old
06-22-2012, 02:26 PM
  #138
Ghost of Dale Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
So the Flyers give up JVR and their 1st and get Ryan. (Ok)

Buffalo gives up their 1st (12), Sekera, and a 2nd, and gets JVR and the 6th overall?

Anaheim gives up Ryan and the 6th for the 12th, 20th, Sekera, and a 2nd....

WTF?

I think your location is a bit revealing. Even if you assume JVR = #12 (under-stating JVR's value), that works out to Sekera and a 2nd for Bobby Ryan. Really?

Ryan
JVR
6th
12th
Sekera
20th
2nd Rounder

By my count, Buffalo gives up the 4th, 5th, and 7th most valuable assets in the deal... and gets 1st and 3rd most valuable.

Yeah, really. If i'm wrong, I'm wrong. Flyers have to subtract to add, I think two #1s 12 and 20, a 2nd (44 I believe) and Sekera is a pretty good package for those.

Maybe Flyers can get more, you may be right.

I think you are overrating JVRs relative value and underestimating Sekera, but, I may be worng. We will see.

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Old
06-22-2012, 02:27 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NitHeel View Post
With all due respect, when you operate under the assumption that this is fair:

- JvR
- Schenn
- 20th OV
- Flyers 2013 1st rounder
- Flyers 2013 2nd rounder



- Ryan
- 6th OV




pretty much everything is going to be considering "lowballing". There seems to be a solid consensus that Schenn is worth more then the #6 overall. But list that as equal and your still left with Ryan being worth JvR, 2 #1s and a #2. That's a lot for what looks like 20 more points, if JvR doesn't develop.
Let's use the Carter trade as an example.

Carter = Voracek + 8th overall + 3rd (68th overall)

JVR = Voracek
8th overall = 20th overall 2012 + 20th overall 2013 + 2nd 2012
68th overall = ?

If you think you could get from the 20th to the 8th for less than that I'd like you to explain how. Add in the 3rd and its a lowball. I agree Schenn is worth more than the 6th but that is actually fair to lowball for Ryan.

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06-22-2012, 02:28 PM
  #140
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I think the most they'd give up is JVR and Voracek+ for Ryan and 6th. Understandable if Anaheim needs Schenn coming back. I'd do this from a Philly perspective.

JVR+Voracek+1st+Gustafsson

for

Ryan, 6th

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06-22-2012, 02:31 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost of Dale Hunter View Post
Yeah, really. If i'm wrong, I'm wrong. Flyers have to subtract to add, I think two #1s 12 and 20, a 2nd (44 I believe) and Sekera is a pretty good package for those.

Maybe Flyers can get more, you may be right.

I think you are overrating JVRs relative value and underestimating Sekera, but, I may be worng. We will see.
I get the sense that you think Sekera holds at least as much value as JVR. Am I reading you correctly?

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06-22-2012, 02:32 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Let's use the Carter trade as an example.

Carter = Voracek + 8th overall + 3rd (68th overall)

JVR = Voracek
8th overall = 20th overall 2012 + 20th overall 2013 + 2nd 2012
68th overall = ?

If you think you could get from the 20th to the 8th for less than that I'd like you to explain how. Add in the 3rd and its a lowball. I agree Schenn is worth more than the 6th but that is actually fair to lowball for Ryan.

To be fair, that trade was universally seen as a complete fleecing, even before Couturier blew up. And Carter (at that point) was a 2-way center scoring 30-35 while being a primary penalty killer, not a winger.

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06-22-2012, 02:39 PM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost of Dale Hunter View Post
my prediction

Anaheim gets:
Buffalo 1st (12)
Philly 1st
Buffalo 2nd
Sekera

Philly gets
Ryan

Buffalo gets
Anaheim 1st (so they can get Faksa)
JVR
One of the worst ever. Congratz.

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Old
06-22-2012, 02:41 PM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Just curious - would you trade a high upside top pairing potential defenseman for JVR's actual salary, production, and injury history? Not being an ass, I'm just not sure why Flyers fans think its such a great deal for Anaheim.
Yep.

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06-22-2012, 02:41 PM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NitHeel View Post
To be fair, that trade was universally seen as a complete fleecing, even before Couturier blew up. And Carter (at that point) was a 2-way center scoring 30-35 while being a primary penalty killer, not a winger.
Regardless, it's reasonable to expect a top 10 pick and a 2nd line wing at a minimum for a legitimate 1st line wing like Ryan. JVR covers the 2nd liner, and with where the Philly 1sts are it would require two of them and a 2nd to get a top 10 pick. I'm not sure how that's debatable.

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06-22-2012, 02:45 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NitHeel View Post
To be fair, that trade was universally seen as a complete fleecing, even before Couturier blew up. And Carter (at that point) was a 2-way center scoring 30-35 while being a primary penalty killer, not a winger.
Not to mention at the time of that trade Voracek had less value then he does now.

People keep forgetting it wasnt Couturier who was in the trade, it was the 8th. Had Columbus known Couturier would be available the Flyers would have had to add more without a doubt. He was projected to go 1st in November of that year, and top 5 at worst, not 8th. You can thank the Isles and Winnipeg for that.

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06-22-2012, 02:51 PM
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Regardless, it's reasonable to expect a top 10 pick and a 2nd line wing at a minimum for a legitimate 1st line wing like Ryan. JVR covers the 2nd liner, and with where the Philly 1sts are it would require two of them and a 2nd to get a top 10 pick. I'm not sure how that's debatable.
I wouldn't give JvR and a top-10 pick for Ryan (and Schenn is worth much more then then just a pick in the back of the top-10 anyway.

I wouldn't give #20, #45, and next year's #20 for #6 unless gold fell to that spot. I looked through the last few drafts and didn't see anything like a move from 20 to 6 so there's really no precedent to look at.


I'm not claiming to have the only correct opinion, but yeah, it is at the very least debatable.

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06-22-2012, 02:53 PM
  #148
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JVR, Schenn, 20th pick, the two 4th rounders in the Bob trade, and 2013 1st
For
Ryan and 6th pick

Is what I think is fair.

Don't forget, moving a few spots from 20th doesn't cost much. Ottawa went up 3 spots to select Erik Karlsson, and it only cost them a 3rd rounder from the next year.
Anaheim could easily flip that 20th and two 4th rounders in to a slightly higher pick and take Lindholm, Grigersons, etc...

That said... I doubt Ryan goes to Philly. U think the 6th pick for Schenn, with some minor other stuff involved, is what is most likely if these two teams did make a trade.

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06-22-2012, 02:54 PM
  #149
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Value is not what's going to get Ryan moved. That's the whole point IMO. If he's moved, it will be for overpayment, and probably great overpayment. We don't have to move Ryan. Quite simply, if the trade doesn't make Anaheim better now, then don't bother. That's our GM's words. Ryan for futures won't happen

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06-22-2012, 02:54 PM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh0otnSc0re View Post
You're out of your mind. We're not talking Getzlaf+++ or Fowler+++.


I'm pretty sure Cout gets an auto hang up from Homer.
You are telling me that Schenn+Coturier has move value then Ryan+6th overall??

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