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Horcoff - What Up?

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11-27-2003, 11:13 AM
  #1
Asiaoil
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Horcoff - Whats Up?

With regards and regrets to LT - Shawn Horcoff is absolutely stinking the joint up every time he hits the ice this year - and it's getting worse every game.

Something has got to be up - he's playing hurt - something. The kid looked like a bottom tier AHL prospect out there last night and I really believe he's much much better than that. Maybe not a top 6 player - but a solid bottom 6 guy. He used to be an awesome 5 on 5 player - but now he's just dreadful - look at his +/-

If he doesn't turn it around soon though he's headed to the PB for a long stay when Reasoner returns (no way you take Stoll out). If he's hurt then sit him out after Oates draws in for gods sake.


Last edited by Asiaoil: 11-27-2003 at 11:15 AM.
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11-27-2003, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaoil
With regards and regrets to LT - Shawn Horcoff is absolutely stinking the joint up every time he hits the ice this year - and it's getting worse every game.

Something has got to be up - he's playing hurt - something. The kid looked like a bottom tier AHL prospect out there last night and I really believe he's much much better than that. Maybe not a top 6 player - but a solid bottom 6 guy. He used to be an awesome 5 on 5 player - but now he's just dreadful - look at his +/-

If he doesn't turn it around soon though he's headed to the PB for a long stay when Reasoner returns (no way you take Stoll out). If he's hurt then sit him out after Oates draws in for gods sake.
To be honest, I think he's trying to do to much. One play last night, he skated in the zone, tried to do one move too many, and lost it. He needs to be benched for a few games and review some game tapes.

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11-27-2003, 11:19 AM
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No confidence, no success, no results = poor play. He has been aweful like you said. People have to remember he has never been a hugely touted prospect. He had good numbers in college but other than half a season last year he has never been all that great a player. Like you said a 4th line centerman (if he is bottom 6 he wouldn't be a checking line centerman). Personally I think he overachieved last season which earned him a regular spot this year. Due to the fact he has been in more noticable roles he hasn't been able to produce. Doing nothing, brutal +/- and absolutely scary on the ice this year. Something needs to be done. The numbers speak foir themselves.

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11-27-2003, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaoil
With regards and regrets to LT - Shawn Horcoff is absolutely stinking the joint up every time he hits the ice this year - and it's getting worse every game.

Something has got to be up - he's playing hurt - something. The kid looked like a bottom tier AHL prospect out there last night and I really believe he's much much better than that. Maybe not a top 6 player - but a solid bottom 6 guy. He used to be an awesome 5 on 5 player - but now he's just dreadful - look at his +/-

If he doesn't turn it around soon though he's headed to the PB for a long stay when Reasoner returns (no way you take Stoll out). If he's hurt then sit him out after Oates draws in for gods sake.
While I'm not yet at the point where I want to trade Horcoff for a bag of Cheetos and the playing rights to Ed Hospodar, there is definitely something wrong with him. Other than game 1 of the year, he doesn't look like the same player...the intensity we were seeing from him in the latter half of last year and at the Worlds is gone. He could be playing hurt, it's hard to say.

The jarring thing is his +/- and 5 on 5 play, usually his strongest points. Right now he is not getting it done anywhere on the ice. If I were him, I'd be seriously concerned about my job security once Reasoner gets back.

He's certainly not the cause of all our little problems, but he sure hasn't been a part of any solutions either. He needs to pick it up, and hopefully he will.

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Old
11-27-2003, 11:51 AM
  #5
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Like I've said a hundred times before, this guy had a good stretch of merely a few games, and the world championships (which in case anyone hasn't figured out, don't relate to the NHL much). Before that, he was Dan Cleary's clone-buddy. And suddenly he's annointed our 2nd line center??? That was a pretty crazy thing to predict, and now unfortunately we've missed the point where he'd be overrated in the eyes of other GMs, so we probably can't get anything for him. He's flat-out not good enough to play on this team, especially when Marty gets back. The fact that he's been BLOWN BY on the depth chart by Jarret Stoll should be pretty telling. There just isn't enough talent there to be more than a 4th-line/PB player on a good hockey team. Anytime you have a player handling the puck like it's a hand grenade, unable to skate at speed and carry the puck, earning nicknames like PPL, Anchor, Clearcoff, etc. you know you have a problem. The one thing I'll say for him is, at least he hasn't started needing to take every pass skating backwards and staring at the passer's stick like his buddy Danny, hopefully we never get there.

I am afraid however that there is alot of coach loyalty there, because if there wasn't, Peter Sarno woulda played alot more games while he was up here.

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11-27-2003, 01:59 PM
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LMHF#1 and I have been signing the same song for months now... add your own music.

i tell you horcoff is over-rated
i beg and plead that he be traded
a few good games he played for us
but why is that miraculous?

one good shot against the dallas stars
and suddenly he should lead the charge?
"top two center" is a delusion
and yet there remains some confusion

it is time to end this fascination
and admit the truth of the situation
for my voice begins to grow weary
of telling you "he's just dan cleary"!

la - la - la...

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Old
11-27-2003, 03:25 PM
  #7
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I liked him before last season's step forward, like him now. However, he's clearly off the pace, which is strange, unless:

1. He's hurt.
2. His off season training had terrible side effects.
3. He's being asked to do too much.
4. He's lost confidence.

I think it's a combination of 1, 2, and 4, because they're not asking much now.

The best way to straighten him out? If he's not hurt enough for ir, then he should spend 20 games in the AHL. Jarrett Stoll is basically doing what Horcoff should be doing.

I hate to say it, and I still like him. But he's miles from where he was a year ago.

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11-27-2003, 04:19 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
I liked him before last season's step forward, like him now. However, he's clearly off the pace, which is strange, unless:

1. He's hurt.
2. His off season training had terrible side effects.
3. He's being asked to do too much.
4. He's lost confidence.

I think it's a combination of 1, 2, and 4, because they're not asking much now.

The best way to straighten him out? If he's not hurt enough for ir, then he should spend 20 games in the AHL. Jarrett Stoll is basically doing what Horcoff should be doing.

I hate to say it, and I still like him. But he's miles from where he was a year ago.
I think he is (or was) playing hurt and they are not talking. Now his confidence has spiralled.

Now I beleive confidence is his biggest hurdle.

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11-27-2003, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky2kurri
I think he is (or was) playing hurt and they are not talking. Now his confidence has spiralled.

Now I beleive confidence is his biggest hurdle.

Confidence is clearly lacking, but so is concentration and simplicity. Watch him when he gets the puck in his own zone during the next game. He tries to do way to much with the puck leading to costly turnovers. He needs to move north and south rather than east west. Playing with plugs forces him to keep his game simple because like them he is a plug too. Get the puck out - dump it deep - go and get it - draw penalties and create confusion. It is the life of a successful 4th liner which is what he should be. Keep the game simple.

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11-28-2003, 04:14 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaoil
With regards and regrets to LT - Shawn Horcoff is absolutely stinking the joint up every time he hits the ice this year - and it's getting worse every game.

Something has got to be up - he's playing hurt - something. The kid looked like a bottom tier AHL prospect out there last night and I really believe he's much much better than that. Maybe not a top 6 player - but a solid bottom 6 guy. He used to be an awesome 5 on 5 player - but now he's just dreadful - look at his +/-

If he doesn't turn it around soon though he's headed to the PB for a long stay when Reasoner returns (no way you take Stoll out). If he's hurt then sit him out after Oates draws in for gods sake.

Sorry
I never saw anything in him. Not to be negative, but some players just grab you early, and he wasn’t one of them. I am really curious though what other people saw in him during the good times? My thoughts would be that we are seeing his last few games as an Oiler. I just do not see enough talent in him to turn it around.

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11-28-2003, 07:32 AM
  #11
barto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Game 8
Sorry
I never saw anything in him. Not to be negative, but some players just grab you early, and he wasn’t one of them. I am really curious though what other people saw in him during the good times? My thoughts would be that we are seeing his last few games as an Oiler. I just do not see enough talent in him to turn it around.
Some guys don't grab you early, but force you to change your mind. Reasoner's one example for many people here, for instance. Horcoff was never one of my favorites, but he played REALLY well in the latter part of last season and into the playoffs, as well as the WC. Anytime a guy plays that well, he's got a chance to grow on you...and the biggest question is, which is the "real" Shawn Horcoff? Was his strong play last year really a fluke? So far it looks that way, but it wasn't just for one or two games, so what's stopping him from playing like that again?

With the Comrie situation, it was a perfect time for Horcoff to continue from last year and challenge for the 2nd-line center spot, but it sure ain't happening this year so far.

It's a tough call for Lowe (and MacT), though - they seemed to think that Horc had enough potential to give him a good amount of time to develop, and it looked like that patience was paying off last year. Do they maintain that patience, or finally give up and make room for someone else (e.g., Stoll), esp. once Reasoner's back??

Bart

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Old
11-28-2003, 07:54 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walsher
Confidence is clearly lacking, but so is concentration and simplicity. Watch him when he gets the puck in his own zone during the next game. He tries to do way to much with the puck leading to costly turnovers. He needs to move north and south rather than east west. Playing with plugs forces him to keep his game simple because like them he is a plug too. Get the puck out - dump it deep - go and get it - draw penalties and create confusion. It is the life of a successful 4th liner which is what he should be. Keep the game simple.
You know what I think?

Looking back at Horcoff's quotes over the summer and his play this year, I really believe that Horcoff truly thought he was going to break out this year, that he was ready to become more than a decent bottom sixer...but then reality set in, and he's having a hard time coming to grips with the cold truth: He's just not as talented as he thought he was.

He'll be OK, but it'll have to be as a 3rd or 4th liner on this team or somewhere else...his chance as a top 2 line center has been given to him more than once, and he's failed to take advantage of it each time for one reason or another. I'd be surprised if MacT gives him another chance.

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Old
11-28-2003, 12:25 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger12
Looking back at Horcoff's quotes over the summer and his play this year, I really believe that Horcoff truly thought he was going to break out this year, that he was ready to become more than a decent bottom sixer...but then reality set in, and he's having a hard time coming to grips with the cold truth: He's just not as talented as he thought he was.
Perhaps. But let's face it. This is not the same Horcoff we've been accustomed to for the past 3 seasons. He has always been a reliable player 5 on 5 and more than capable in his own zone. This year, it looks like the complete opposite for him.

He has to get better. We can't see a capable defensive 3rd/4th liner for 3 seasons and now call him a fluke.. Someone needs to get his head on straight and tell him to play within himself. He's a lot more effective that way.

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Old
11-28-2003, 01:47 PM
  #14
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Horcoff has a lot of nice things going for him, he's developed quite a bit over the years. When he arrived, he was a pretty good skater with defensive awareness and a work ethic, but got knocked off the puck easily and made these mad passes across the middle. He, like most young players, had a tendency to be too slow to recognize a developing play, and when he did, his brain couldn't tell his body what to do in time to execute.

I liked him from the first time I saw him. First shift, he came in over the line, marked his check, and tied up his opponent's stick as the puck zipped by them and out of harm's way. Horcoff rode him out of the play, subtle but brilliant hockey. He's done that kind of thing hundreds of times since.

Horcoff now is not the confident player we've seen in the past, but these things happen. There's an ebb and flow to a career, and he may indeed have to go elsewhere to find himself.

The Oilers have a tremendous number of young players, and when you have clusters like this there's often one or two players who fall between the cracks.

Horcoff may be one of them. Doesn't make him a bad player, and certainly doesn't reduce what he's already accomplished. He was taken 99th overall, and has currently played over 200 NHL games.

I like him.

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11-28-2003, 07:26 PM
  #15
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Lowtide your loyalty and belief in Horcoff is admirable. Unfortunately I do not share a similar view. I've always viewed Horcoff as a borderline 3-4 line centre and doubted his potential upside. I've wished and hoped for more but haven't seen it in his game.

His biggest weakness is a physical weakness and timidity. Despite the much ballyhoed off season training Horcoff still seems physically weak and easily knocked off the puck. Beyond physical attributes, I just don't see strong hockey sense. I've heard and read alot of excuses for him. If only he got more ice time, if only he played with quality wingers, if only...

The reality is Mr. Horcoff has been given the opportunity to raise his game. It didn't happen. He's now been passed on the depth chart by young Mr. Stoll. I think we are resigned to seeing a decent role player - nothing more and nothing less.

This glass is half-empty as I see it. But I respect your opinion and loyalty and I hope to be proven wrong.

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