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Markham Arena II

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Old
06-23-2012, 05:14 PM
  #226
madhi19
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Twenty thousand seats I got to give it to Markham they don't screw around. It still baffle me that Quebec city is only building an eighteen thousand seats venue! Spending 400 million to build something that can only seat 3000 more peoples than the arena you currently have is just moronic. I know they want to create a bit of rarity and if the arena was privately funded I be fine with it. But when you use public money should you be required to make sure that as many of the public has access to the place.

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06-23-2012, 07:27 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by madhi19 View Post
Twenty thousand seats I got to give it to Markham they don't screw around. It still baffle me that Quebec city is only building an eighteen thousand seats venue! Spending 400 million to build something that can only seat 3000 more peoples than the arena you currently have is just moronic. I know they want to create a bit of rarity and if the arena was privately funded I be fine with it. But when you use public money should you be required to make sure that as many of the public has access to the place.
The problem with the old colisee is not the number of seat.....

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06-24-2012, 01:57 AM
  #228
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I might be getting my storylines mixed up but are Darryl Katz and AEG the ones pushing for a team in Markham? If not, who would be the likely owner of a new team?

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06-24-2012, 05:38 AM
  #229
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I might be getting my storylines mixed up but are Darryl Katz and AEG the ones pushing for a team in Markham? If not, who would be the likely owner of a new team?
No, Hamilton. Apparently they have a new owner lined up according to the KPMG report. Doesn't say who it is, and they sure aren't talking...

And shame on you for mixing up the two....

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06-24-2012, 02:51 PM
  #230
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I might be getting my storylines mixed up but are Darryl Katz and AEG the ones pushing for a team in Markham? If not, who would be the likely owner of a new team?
I'm guessing the same people who are putting $162.5 million down to build the arena: Graeme Roustan (Chairman of Bauer) and Rudy Bratty (CEO of the Remington Group, net worth of $1.01 billion).

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06-24-2012, 03:11 PM
  #231
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Apparently they have a new owner lined up according to the KPMG report. Doesn't say who it is, and they sure aren't talking...
...rumour has it the cleaning crew at Copps have been finding empty boxes of that tasty cornpone snack Bugles & vintage stubbies of Heidelberg all over the building for some months now. Sounds like Duff McArdle's returned, cashing in on his recent CD & live performance successes with Greg Keelor & Travis Good. I guess his days of being Down & Out in Upalong are over huh?

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06-24-2012, 04:54 PM
  #232
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No, Hamilton. Apparently they have a new owner lined up according to the KPMG report. Doesn't say who it is, and they sure aren't talking...

And shame on you for mixing up the two....
Maybe that is reason why the deal to give total control of Copps Coliseum to Katz group & AEG. did not happen a couple months back . Because the city must be in talks with this mystery owner along with katz\aeg. on a lease & also I recall mayor Bob Bratina saying that if Hamilton is going to get an NHL. team its going to be done behind close doors . So apperently mayor Bob Bratina along with this mystery owner & Katz\AEG. are willing to play by the Gary Bettman & the NHL. so called rules unlike Balsille & former mayor Esienberger did .

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06-24-2012, 07:47 PM
  #233
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The problem with the old colisee is not the number of seat.....
Yeah but still if you spend 400 million of public money I would expect a bit more than just more luxury box for the 1%.

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06-24-2012, 08:32 PM
  #234
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Yeah but still if you spend 400 million of public money I would expect a bit more than just more luxury box for the 1%.
yeah too bad none of the new arena leases require a certain number of "affordable seats"

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06-24-2012, 10:06 PM
  #235
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Maybe that is reason why the deal to give total control of Copps Coliseum to Katz group & AEG. did not happen a couple months back . Because the city must be in talks with this mystery owner along with katz\aeg. on a lease & also I recall mayor Bob Bratina saying that if Hamilton is going to get an NHL. team its going to be done behind close doors . So apperently mayor Bob Bratina along with this mystery owner & Katz\AEG. are willing to play by the Gary Bettman & the NHL. so called rules unlike Balsille & former mayor Esienberger did .
No, I would like to believe it, but I think the reality is that, unlike a certain Arizona suburban city, the City of Hamilton is actually playing this above board. Negotiating with multiple potential partners for MOUs and then picking the best. I suppose if there is a scramble for a quick landing spot for a team that needs relocating fast, Katz\AEG can play the "we have a team and we need a MOU now" card and jump the queue, otherwise they will have to compete with the other heavy hitters.

I'm keeping an eye on the upcoming Hamilton council meetings and seeing if anything of interest pops up this week...

As for Mayor Bob, I recall Bratina saying the same thing, but I always assume he's off his meds and take everything he says with a grain of salt, even if it makes sense...

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06-26-2012, 03:43 PM
  #236
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@TSNBobMcKenzie

Graeme Roustan will appear before Markham, Ont., Council Wed nite, seeking to get site plan approval for new 18K-seat arena.

@TSNBobMcKenzie

If Markham Council approves site plan, that is likely the last hurdle to overcome to put a shovel in the ground and start building.

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06-28-2012, 03:07 AM
  #237
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I read it is a 20,000 seat facility and it got the go-ahead. Primarily will be a concert venue (built for that purpose), so an NHL franchise would be a bonus but not a necessity.
Can't imagine MLSE is too happy about this.....but my twisted way of thinking makes me see this as the push to make MLSE be in absolute agreement with a team in Hamilton. If another team is going in the area....MLSE would (I am certain) prefer a team in Hamilton over one in Markham.
So...if one is coming to Southern Ontario....I expect MLSE will be more on board with Hamilton now than they ever were before, which isn't much. But if it HAS to happen....and if MLSE has any pull (which I understand they do) this is good news for Hamilton's NHL hopes....but bad news for their concert bookings at Copps.

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06-28-2012, 03:12 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
No, I would like to believe it, but I think the reality is that, unlike a certain Arizona suburban city, the City of Hamilton is actually playing this above board. Negotiating with multiple potential partners for MOUs and then picking the best. I suppose if there is a scramble for a quick landing spot for a team that needs relocating fast, Katz\AEG can play the "we have a team and we need a MOU now" card and jump the queue, otherwise they will have to compete with the other heavy hitters.

I'm keeping an eye on the upcoming Hamilton council meetings and seeing if anything of interest pops up this week...

As for Mayor Bob, I recall Bratina saying the same thing, but I always assume he's off his meds and take everything he says with a grain of salt, even if it makes sense...
Bob's brutal....I wish Fred got re-elected, would have been much better (on all fronts). Councillor Whitehead deals with this stuff on a day-to-day basis....so hopefully something comes from him soon.
Like I said in my other post....MLSE will likely lean towards a Hamilton franchise instead of a Markham one (if they have to choose). So this pressure of a new arena in Markham might make MLSE roll-over and accept Hamilton and Markham will take Hamilton's place as the place MLSE blocks.

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06-28-2012, 03:46 AM
  #239
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Maybe that is reason why the deal to give total control of Copps Coliseum to Katz group & AEG. did not happen a couple months back . Because the city must be in talks with this mystery owner along with katz\aeg. on a lease & also I recall mayor Bob Bratina saying that if Hamilton is going to get an NHL. team its going to be done behind close doors . So apperently mayor Bob Bratina along with this mystery owner & Katz\AEG. are willing to play by the Gary Bettman & the NHL. so called rules unlike Balsille & former mayor Esienberger did .
Eisenberger was pretty tight lipped I thought. As much as he could be with Rodier spouting off. Interesting that he is now on the NHLPA's payroll (I think he is still) and negotiations are starting up.
There has and always will be somebody interested in putting a team in Hamilton. Balsillie was just involved in the very public versions of it. There is, without a doubt in my mind, at least one person willing to be an Owner of a Hamilton NHL franchise. The game has changed with this new arena in Markham....MLSE now has a two-front war. I can't imagine they could try to "veto" both locales....so further is better and Hamilton will get their reluctant acceptance.
Heck...on the heels of Markham coughing up dough for this rink...I'd think the Town of Markham might even be willing to do what Rodier wanted to and challenge the NHL's territorial by-laws in court if it might help them. Hamilton would of course partake, as would Balsillie, Rodier, MLSE, Sabres, etc. Would be nasty. 2 NHL suitable facilities....demand...desire...owners...and refusal of franchises. Courts would be the only option.
I assume the NHL (not sure why I keep giving them credit) would choose to avoid that sort of publicity and/or court issues and place a franchise where the closest franchises (TOR/BUF) agree on. Which would be Hamilton. Buffalo doesn't seem to be enormously opposed to a team in Hamilton....regardless of what some sound bytes imply.

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06-28-2012, 04:17 AM
  #240
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Twenty thousand seats I got to give it to Markham they don't screw around. It still baffle me that Quebec city is only building an eighteen thousand seats venue! Spending 400 million to build something that can only seat 3000 more peoples than the arena you currently have is just moronic. I know they want to create a bit of rarity and if the arena was privately funded I be fine with it. But when you use public money should you be required to make sure that as many of the public has access to the place.
Less is more. 17,500 to 18,500 is the perfect size. Montreal built too big and has had problems with demand/pricing structure because of it.
Edmonton's new barn will apparently be 18,500.
Other new rink (post 1995) capacities:
Prudential Center: 17,625
Wells Fargo Center: 19,537
TD Garden: 17,565
First Niagara Center: 18,690
Le Centre Bell: 21,273
Air Canada Centre: 18,819
PNC Arena: 18,680
BankAtlantic Center: 19,250
Tampa Bay Times Forum: 19,204
Verizon Centre: 18,506
MTS Centre: 15,004
Bridgestone Arena: 17,113
Pepsi Center: 18,007
Consol Energy Center: 18,387
Nationwide Arena: 18,144
Xcel Energy Center: 18,064
America Airlines Center: 18,532
Rogers Arena: 18,890
Staples Center: 18,118
Jobing.com Arena: 17,125

An average of 18,326. Take out Winnipeg and the average is 18,509. The typical NHL rink. Some see 17,500 as prime to increase demand and ticket prices while keeping enough volume...while other markets determine 18,500ish is better.
The 20,000 seat venues are oddities and not the standard. If there are tickets available at a 21,000 seat facility....why would I pay $15 more a seat to sit 10 rows below seats that are still readily available? I'll pay less....and probably move down 10 rows after the first song/period/quarter/etc.
Of course....quantity still matters....gotta balance supply and demand. Winnipeg has too little supply, Chicago/Montreal has too much supply while demand varies.

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06-28-2012, 05:43 AM
  #241
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A second team in Toronto is a stupid idea and I personally hope it never happens. Alot of fans in the area yes, but they are either leafs fans or fans of other teams. i think one pretty bad team is enough for us torontonians thank you very much

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06-28-2012, 12:21 PM
  #242
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All this new so called arena in Markham will be is 1 giant white elephant beacause MLSE. will never allow another NHL. team to take root in there backyard without a huge & I mean huge fee to give up there teritory rights & the amount would be somewhere in the nieghborhood of 100 -150 million maybe more . Besides acording to the conference board of canada Toronto (GTA.) cannot handle another pro sports team when they have trouble supporting the 7 they already have not to mention the cost of a 2nd NHL. team in Toronto (GTA.) would astronomical given the cost of a new arena , team & paying off MLSE. . That is why they listed Hamilton & Quebec City as the only cities left in canada that can support an NHL. team it just makes more economic sense to put teams there than a 2nd team in toronto (gta.) & lets be honest the only cities in north america that can support more than one team in the same sport are New York , Los Angeles & Chicago because there populations are in the 10's of millions & lets be realistic here Toronto (GTA.) is no NY. , LA. or Chicago .

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06-28-2012, 12:39 PM
  #243
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Second Toronto arena plan skates on

Second Toronto arena plan skates on

"Plans for a new state-of-the art NHL-ready arena and entertainment centre is skating along on fast ice at Markham... "

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL.../19928551.html

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06-28-2012, 01:17 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
All this new so called arena in Markham will be is 1 giant white elephant beacause MLSE. will never allow another NHL. team to take root in there backyard without a huge & I mean huge fee to give up there teritory rights & the amount would be somewhere in the nieghborhood of 100 -150 million maybe more . Besides acording to the conference board of canada Toronto (GTA.) cannot handle another pro sports team when they have trouble supporting the 7 they already have not to mention the cost of a 2nd NHL. team in Toronto (GTA.) would astronomical given the cost of a new arena , team & paying off MLSE. . That is why they listed Hamilton & Quebec City as the only cities left in canada that can support an NHL. team it just makes more economic sense to put teams there than a 2nd team in toronto (gta.) & lets be honest the only cities in north america that can support more than one team in the same sport are New York , Los Angeles & Chicago because there populations are in the 10's of millions & lets be realistic here Toronto (GTA.) is no NY. , LA. or Chicago .
quick question, I remember reading about a study that said Canada could support 12 teams, including 2 in GTA, 1 in Hamiton, and second teams in Montreal and Vancouver. I doubt second teams in Montreal and Vancouver would work but I think Markham and Hamilton work.

Does anyone remember who did that study?

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06-28-2012, 01:24 PM
  #245
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If I lived in Markham I'd be furious about the city using public funds to finance the construction of a sports arena, and one that won't even be publicly owned and operated at that (as far as I can tell; few articles I look at actually mention who will own and operate the arena). Rudy Bratty wants the city to borrow $162 million to finance the place, when he's perfectly capable of financing the whole damn thing himself as he and his group are richer than God, so why aren't the people and city of Markham telling him to do that? Why are they allowing him to loot and plunder their treasury just because he wants them to subsidize his business plans as much as possible? I wonder if they'll change their tune when (not if) the project encounters significant cost overruns.

It's also disheartening to see people once again swallowing the obvious lies that the project will not necessitate any net increase in taxes on working people and that it will benefit the area economically; both have been proven false so many times in so many cities over the years that they simply ought to know better. Perhaps people in Markham and elsewhere are simply too excited by the prospect of an NHL team to keep their thoughts focused on reality. Too bad for them it will never happen.

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06-28-2012, 01:36 PM
  #246
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quick question, I remember reading about a study that said Canada could support 12 teams, including 2 in GTA, 1 in Hamiton, and second teams in Montreal and Vancouver. I doubt second teams in Montreal and Vancouver would work but I think Markham and Hamilton work.

Does anyone remember who did that study?
I remember hearing from business expert saying within the next 10 years there will be NHL. team in Hamilton & a 2nd one in Toronto but I doubt 2nd NHL. in Toronto will happen because MLSE. won't allow it to happen & if a 2nd NHL. team in southern ontario is un avoidble for MLSE. & was given a choice between Hamilton & Markham they would choose Hamilton because Hamilton is far enough away that it would not effect its bottom line in hockey & non hockey related events .

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06-28-2012, 09:50 PM
  #247
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If I lived in Markham I'd be furious about the city using public funds to finance the construction of a sports arena, and one that won't even be publicly owned and operated at that (as far as I can tell; few articles I look at actually mention who will own and operate the arena).
The arena will be 100% publicly owned and then leased to Roustan and Bratty's group. The lease payments, among other financing tools, will be used by the town to pay down the arena debt.

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Rudy Bratty wants the city to borrow $162 million to finance the place, when he's perfectly capable of financing the whole damn thing himself as he and his group are richer than God, so why aren't the people and city of Markham telling him to do that? Why are they allowing him to loot and plunder their treasury just because he wants them to subsidize his business plans as much as possible? I wonder if they'll change their tune when (not if) the project encounters significant cost overruns.
All cost overruns will be covered by Roustan and Bratty, not the town.

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It's also disheartening to see people once again swallowing the obvious lies that the project will not necessitate any net increase in taxes on working people and that it will benefit the area economically; both have been proven false so many times in so many cities over the years that they simply ought to know better. Perhaps people in Markham and elsewhere are simply too excited by the prospect of an NHL team to keep their thoughts focused on reality. Too bad for them it will never happen.
The Council has done a 'good' job keeping the issue behind closed doors as much as possible, which is regrettable. For a project like this, public consultation should have been a pivotal part of the process.

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06-28-2012, 10:05 PM
  #248
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The arena will be 100% publicly owned and then leased to Roustan and Bratty's group. The lease payments, among other financing tools, will be used by the town to pay down the arena debt.



All cost overruns will be covered by Roustan and Bratty, not the town.



The Council has done a 'good' job keeping the issue behind closed doors as much as possible, which is regrettable. For a project like this, public consultation should have been a pivotal part of the process.
Thanks for clearing that up. The fact that it will be publicly owned makes it (very slightly) easier to swallow. They're still spending massive amounts of public funds on something that's of no economic value to the community (the idea that sports arenas and teams provide real economic benefits is a myth), but at least the resulting product will be owned by the community. It means that the community will at least have something physical to show for their expenditures instead of having to deal with simply handing buckets of cash to a private business enterprise.

I can see that you're right about the idea of a hard cap on the town's contribution, though I'm extremely skeptical that this means anything at all. I'm sure that, in the event of overruns, the town and the business consortium's lawyers will find some kind of creative way around the portion of the agreement that relieves the town of any obligation to cover overruns. Though, the articles I'm reading make it sound like the town can consent to providing additional funding, but that they are not obligated to do so. Can you shed some light on that?

I still want to know why a billionaire and his private business partners need public funds to make this happen. They clearly have the money needed to build their own arena completely independent of public financing, so why don't they? Do they believe that, in the absence of public funding, a major arena in Markham won't be profitable in the long term? I suspect that the town's eagerness (11-2 vote) to go ahead with the project is just the result of politicians and others eager to attach their name to a big, visible, impressive project, regardless of the costs and benefits.

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06-28-2012, 10:12 PM
  #249
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quick question, I remember reading about a study that said Canada could support 12 teams, including 2 in GTA, 1 in Hamiton, and second teams in Montreal and Vancouver. I doubt second teams in Montreal and Vancouver would work but I think Markham and Hamilton work.

Does anyone remember who did that study?
university of Toronto.

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If I lived in Markham I'd be furious about the city using public funds to finance the construction of a sports arena, and one that won't even be publicly owned and operated at that (as far as I can tell; few articles I look at actually mention who will own and operate the arena). Rudy Bratty wants the city to borrow $162 million to finance the place, when he's perfectly capable of financing the whole damn thing himself as he and his group are richer than God, so why aren't the people and city of Markham telling him to do that? Why are they allowing him to loot and plunder their treasury just because he wants them to subsidize his business plans as much as possible? I wonder if they'll change their tune when (not if) the project encounters significant cost overruns.

It's also disheartening to see people once again swallowing the obvious lies that the project will not necessitate any net increase in taxes on working people and that it will benefit the area economically; both have been proven false so many times in so many cities over the years that they simply ought to know better. Perhaps people in Markham and elsewhere are simply too excited by the prospect of an NHL team to keep their thoughts focused on reality. Too bad for them it will never happen.
I agree. Look at Hamilton. I talk about the NFL alot but I would be furious if Toronto dropped 1.5 billion on a arena.

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06-28-2012, 11:15 PM
  #250
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Thanks for clearing that up. The fact that it will be publicly owned makes it (very slightly) easier to swallow. They're still spending massive amounts of public funds on something that's of no economic value to the community (the idea that sports arenas and teams provide real economic benefits is a myth), but at least the resulting product will be owned by the community. It means that the community will at least have something physical to show for their expenditures instead of having to deal with simply handing buckets of cash to a private business enterprise.

I can see that you're right about the idea of a hard cap on the town's contribution, though I'm extremely skeptical that this means anything at all. I'm sure that, in the event of overruns, the town and the business consortium's lawyers will find some kind of creative way around the portion of the agreement that relieves the town of any obligation to cover overruns. Though, the articles I'm reading make it sound like the town can consent to providing additional funding, but that they are not obligated to do so. Can you shed some light on that?
I can try, but I doubt it would be of much help. The agreement hasn't been completed and a quick scan through the proposal documents (see below) doesn't yield much.

Here's what the Town passed on April 26th, with regards to cost:

Quote:
GTA Centre, LP will enter into a lease with Markham and into contacts to design, build and finance the Centre for a fixed price. Markham will own the Centre and will borrow the required funds for reimbursement to GTA Centre, LP upon completion of construction. The Centre will be designated as a Municipal Capital Facility (MCF) by by-law. Additional details of the project signature require further due diligence and will be reported back to council at a later date.
In other words, we'll just have to wait and see exactly how cost overruns are covered. I believe it was Roustan who said that his group would cover all cost overruns, though I can't seem to find the exact quote.

Quote:
I still want to know why a billionaire and his private business partners need public funds to make this happen. They clearly have the money needed to build their own arena completely independent of public financing, so why don't they? Do they believe that, in the absence of public funding, a major arena in Markham won't be profitable in the long term? I suspect that the town's eagerness (11-2 vote) to go ahead with the project is just the result of politicians and others eager to attach their name to a big, visible, impressive project, regardless of the costs and benefits.
Unfortunately it is par for the course for not only the arena business, but the business world as a whole nowadays.

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