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Old
06-23-2012, 06:40 PM
  #26
MAK19
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Originally Posted by outoftune View Post
Ok so your shutdown pairing is worse than that then.... did you have a shutdown pair at all????

Edit: Cowen and Phillips???? (Probably better than Kuba but id still take ROB and Hejda over them.... and yes that is now not anytime from now recall this is the argument you cant make the playoffs without a shutdown pair)
You clearly do not watch the Sens, so how can you know that ours was worse than yours? It was Kuba - Karlsson, you know, the Norris Trophy winner, and they're much better than Hejda and O'Byrne.

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Old
06-23-2012, 06:42 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
Who the hell are you exactly?

You must be an OTT fan who watches more Avs hockey than Avalanche fans do.

How about you stop pretending that your opinion actually holds any weight when it comes to Avs players?
What exactly is wrong with what I said? I've seen plenty of O'Byrne thanks very much. He played 1st/2nd pair for you last year, whatever you consider that shutdown pair to be, and the Avs sucked.

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Old
06-23-2012, 06:42 PM
  #28
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If O'Byrne/Hejda is one of the worst shutdown pairings in the league then the rest of those types of pairings must be a hell of a lot better than I imagined.

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Old
06-23-2012, 06:43 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
You clearly do not watch the Sens, so how can you know that ours was worse than yours? It was Kuba - Karlsson, you know, the Norris Trophy winner, and they're much better than Hejda and O'Byrne.
At offense.. lol

Hens the "Shutdown" pairing label.

And you clearing don't watch the Avs either. You wonder why people are irritated with your opinionated statements?

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06-23-2012, 06:44 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post
If O'Byrne/Hejda is one of the worst shutdown pairings in the league then the rest of those types of pairings must be a hell of a lot better than I imagined.
Try naming one pair that is worse. I said might be the worse, so go ahead and name 3-5.

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06-23-2012, 06:45 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
At offense.. lol

Hens the "Shutdown" pairing label.

And you clearing don't watch the Avs either, and you wonder why people are irritated with your opinionated statements?
They're also better at defense. Being good at offense doesn't automatically mean you suck at defense.

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Old
06-23-2012, 06:45 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
Try naming one pair that is worse. I said might be the worse, so go ahead and name 3-5.
Well you already named one... Hejda + O'Byrne are better in their own zone than Kuba + Karlsson.

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Old
06-23-2012, 06:47 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
What exactly is wrong with what I said? I've seen plenty of O'Byrne thanks very much. He played 1st/2nd pair for you last year, whatever you consider that shutdown pair to be, and the Avs sucked.
Are you kidding? Our "Team that Sucked" was ranked 11th in defense.

OTT? 24th..

So in an argument about defense I think your sinking fast.

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06-23-2012, 06:50 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
Try naming one pair that is worse. I said might be the worse, so go ahead and name 3-5.
I wasn't saying they weren't, and given my limited knowledge of other teams' D I can't say (I daresay someone who can will do/is doing so as I type this), but O'Byrne and Hejda were good together for us last year, especially on the penalty kill. Certainly not as bad as they're being made out here (and certainly not improved by taking O'Byrne out and replacing him with Wilson/Gaunce/whoever).

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Old
06-23-2012, 06:50 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
What exactly is wrong with what I said? I've seen plenty of O'Byrne thanks very much. He played 1st/2nd pair for you last year, whatever you consider that shutdown pair to be, and the Avs sucked.
Hmm...so the team that finished 11th in defense sucks defensively, but the team that finished 24th is all good??? You should get out of this thread before you embarrass yourself anymore

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Old
06-23-2012, 06:53 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Well you already named one... Hejda + O'Byrne are better in their own zone than Kuba + Karlsson.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
Are you kidding? Our "Team that Sucked" was ranked 11th in defense.

OTT? 24th..

So in an argument about defense I think your sinking fast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post
I wasn't saying they weren't, and given my limited knowledge of other teams' D I can't say (I daresay someone who can will do/is doing so as I type this), but O'Byrne and Hejda were good together for us last year, especially on the penalty kill. Certainly not as bad as they're being made out here (and certainly not improved by taking O'Byrne out and replacing him with Wilson/Gaunce/whoever).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Hmm...so the team that finished 11th in defense sucks defensively, but the team that finished 24th is all good??? You should get out of this thread before you embarrass yourself anymore
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/5/30/top-defensive-pairings

Have a nice read guys. I specifically love the part where they single out Hejda and O'Byrne as the pairing that struggled the most.

Team GA means little as it's a team stat, not a stat for two players.

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Old
06-23-2012, 07:00 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/5/30/top-defensive-pairings

Have a nice read guys. I specifically love the part where they single out Hejda and O'Byrne as the pairing that struggled the most.

Team GA means little as it's a team stat, not a stat for two players.
Do you understand that article?

It demonstrates that Hejda/O'Byrne faced a lower QoC than most high minute defenders but also had the most defensive zone starts. As in, they were the most pure shutdown defensive group analyzed but also the weakest offensive guys analyzed, so they were kept in a strictly defensive role.

They played in their own zone more than Karlsson, because that was their job and they were good at it. Nowhere in the article does it demonstrate they were poor or struggling at what they did, but merely assuming it in text.

Sacco rolled relatively even matchups around, but used Hejda/O'Byrne for the tougher assignments to keep EJ+whomever fresh for ES or PP duty. Hejda/O'Byrne did their job fairly well considering they faced the more skilled forwards around the league more often and still managed to shut them down. Especially on the PK which they got frequent minutes on.


Last edited by Lonewolfe2015: 06-23-2012 at 07:05 PM.
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Old
06-23-2012, 07:01 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
You clearly do not watch the Sens, so how can you know that ours was worse than yours? It was Kuba - Karlsson, you know, the Norris Trophy winner, and they're much better than Hejda and O'Byrne.
the norris trophy winner who was not a runaway for the award because of his iffy dplay even though he destroyed the rest of the league offensively... . him???? yeah your right what a defensive powerhouse he is.................. and you have a different idea of what a shutdown pairing is by the way.... to pick a pair whose playing with your top line against the other teams shutdown line is now what we were getting at all..... in that case should probably be compairing EJ in this debate.... we aren't on our side

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Old
06-23-2012, 07:01 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/5/30/top-defensive-pairings

Have a nice read guys. I specifically love the part where they single out Hejda and O'Byrne as the pairing that struggled the most.

Team GA means little as it's a team stat, not a stat for two players.
Oh look. A guy who gets all his info from stats. Nice to know Go watch an actual Avs game then come back to the table buddy.


And how does that even back up your point...go read what Lonewolfe said

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Old
06-23-2012, 07:02 PM
  #40
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Colorado wouldn't really want to take a chance on Regin who's been injured so much. Ottawa has no need to move him unless someone asks, otherwise MacLean liked him IIRC. Give him his chance and see what happens.

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Old
06-23-2012, 07:04 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Do you understand that article?

It demonstrates that Hejda/O'Byrne faced a lower QoC than most high minute defenders but also had the most defensive zone starts. As in, they were the most pure shutdown defensive group analyzed but also the weakest offensive guys analyzed, so they were kept in a strictly defensive role.

They played in their own zone more than Karlsson, because that was their job and they were good at it. Nowhere in the article does it demonstrate they were poor or struggling at what they did, but merely assuming it in text.

Sacco rolled relatively even matchups around, but used Hejda/O'Byrne for the tougher assignments to keep EJ+whomever fresh for ES or PP duty. Hejda/O'Byrne did their job fairly well considering they faced the more skilled forwards around the job more often and still managed to shut them down. Especially on the PK which they got frequent minutes on.
Quotes from the articles.

''the pairing that might have struggled most is Colorado's Ryan O'Byrne and Jan Hejda. Though the Avalanche, like Winnipeg, spread out the match-ups fairly evenly among their defensemen, their two stay-at-home defensemen were kept almost exclusively in their own zone and got absolutely hammered''

''As for those who struggled, Colorado may want to re-visit the idea of assigning the toughest minutes to Ryan O'Byrne and Jan Hejda''


And you forgot to take into account the bubbles. The size and color of the bubble indicates the player's Corsi value, which indicates whether the player was outshot or not. Blue is positive Corsi, while white is negative Corsi, and the size of the bubble indicates how big the number is. For example, a big clear bubble means the player was outshot badly while on the ice, and a big blue bubble means the player dominated his competition.

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Old
06-23-2012, 07:06 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/5/30/top-defensive-pairings

Have a nice read guys. I specifically love the part where they single out Hejda and O'Byrne as the pairing that struggled the most.

Team GA means little as it's a team stat, not a stat for two players.
and individual GA means very little when your never in your own end....... however if your always in your own end and your teams GA is low is has alot to do with you

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Old
06-23-2012, 07:06 PM
  #43
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If I could reach through my computer monitor I'd slap this 19sens11 in the face.

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06-23-2012, 07:07 PM
  #44
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If I could reach through my computer monitor I'd slap this 19sens11 in the face.
So would most Sens fans. The ignore route is the best option for both fan bases.

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06-23-2012, 07:08 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
Quotes from the articles.

''the pairing that might have struggled most is Colorado's Ryan O'Byrne and Jan Hejda. Though the Avalanche, like Winnipeg, spread out the match-ups fairly evenly among their defensemen, their two stay-at-home defensemen were kept almost exclusively in their own zone and got absolutely hammered''

''As for those who struggled, Colorado may want to re-visit the idea of assigning the toughest minutes to Ryan O'Byrne and Jan Hejda''


And you forgot to take into account the bubbles. The size and color of the bubble indicates the player's Corsi value, which indicates whether the player was outshot or not. Blue is positive Corsi, while white is negative Corsi, and the size of the bubble indicates how big the number is. For example, a big clear bubble means the player was outshot badly while on the ice, and a big blue bubble means the player dominated his competition.
Its your graph your looking at and the two you are comparing are the exact opposite sides.................. ours close to 70% d-faceoffs--- yours close to 70% offensive faceoffs....... never occured to you that this might be the reasoning our guys were a shutdown pairing yours were not

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Old
06-23-2012, 07:09 PM
  #46
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the norris trophy winner who was not a runaway for the award because of his iffy dplay even though he destroyed the rest of the league offensively... . him???? yeah your right what a defensive powerhouse he is.................. and you have a different idea of what a shutdown pairing is by the way.... to pick a pair whose playing with your top line against the other teams shutdown line is now what we were getting at all..... in that case should probably be compairing EJ in this debate.... we aren't on our side
His defensive play isn't really iffy, in fact is better than O'Byrne

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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Oh look. A guy who gets all his info from stats. Nice to know Go watch an actual Avs game then come back to the table buddy.


And how does that even back up your point...go read what Lonewolfe said
I've seen plenty of O'Byrne like I've mentioned. Just because he's big and physical doesn't mean he's particularly effective at keeping the puck out of the net. 3rd pairing D

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Old
06-23-2012, 07:12 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
Quotes from the articles.

''the pairing that might have struggled most is Colorado's Ryan O'Byrne and Jan Hejda. Though the Avalanche, like Winnipeg, spread out the match-ups fairly evenly among their defensemen, their two stay-at-home defensemen were kept almost exclusively in their own zone and got absolutely hammered''

''As for those who struggled, Colorado may want to re-visit the idea of assigning the toughest minutes to Ryan O'Byrne and Jan Hejda''


And you forgot to take into account the bubbles. The size and color of the bubble indicates the player's Corsi value, which indicates whether the player was outshot or not. Blue is positive Corsi, while white is negative Corsi, and the size of the bubble indicates how big the number is. For example, a big clear bubble means the player was outshot badly while on the ice, and a big blue bubble means the player dominated his competition.
Right... because they were the ones used defensively. They aren't good enough to win the battle and carry it out of the zone like EJ did for the Avs, but they were good enough to keep the play outside and defend the crease, thus causing a lot of perimeter shots on net. Resulting in the huge shot disparity.

However, lots of shots against does not mean poor defensive play, in fact you can't gauge that without watching them in action or at the very least analyzing the situational stats better.

Shutdown pairings are notorious for being poorly reflected by advanced statistics, shutdown pairings also skew team QoC data (which is why people try to argue against EJ, when he was not always used against the top opposition because Hejda/ROB were).

In a situation like the Avs where we had a lot more big defensive defenders than mobile guys, we made a decision to play a shutdown pairing and use our more mobile guys for offense. This does not mean they are our best defenders, EJ was easily. But it does mean that we trusted them with difficult assignments and going by our team results they largely exceled.

This can be infered because if a pairing gets the more difficult assignments and the team as a whole has a favorable ranking defensively, it must be assumed the shutdown pairing did their job well. Otherwise you'd have to have the other 2 pairings letting in almost no goals all season to account for the GA/G the Avs have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
wow thanks guys, just presented some stats and claimed Karlsson, the Norris Trophy winner, > O'Byrne defensively. What an outrageous claim
Yes, because there has never been a Norris winner with worse defensive play than another defender in the league.

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Old
06-23-2012, 07:12 PM
  #48
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Avs fans aren't saying he is anything more than a good 3rd pairing guy.

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06-23-2012, 07:13 PM
  #49
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If I could reach through my computer monitor I'd slap this 19sens11 in the face.
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So would most Sens fans. The ignore route is the best option for both fan bases.
wow thanks guys, just presented some stats and claimed Karlsson, the Norris Trophy winner, > O'Byrne defensively. What an outrageous claim

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Old
06-23-2012, 07:14 PM
  #50
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A different team's fan making themselves look stupid acting like they know what they are talking about after citing one person's opinion elsewhere? Shocking.

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