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JVR traded to Toronto for Luke Schenn

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06-23-2012, 08:55 PM
  #351
mikedifr
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Originally Posted by drownedsailors View Post
It's funny how everyone (non- Flyers fans) are saying if JVR becomes a great player, we're doomed...you guys fail to realize that we were one of the best offensive teams in this league WITHOUT JVR, so technically speaking we don't really need him.

The problem isn't about losing JVR but how we lost him...I was hoping to ship JVR in a package to get Bobby Ryan or maybe Weber (although that would require more than just Reimer), but instead it was a straight up trade. I'm ok with the trade now and I'm hoping a change of scenery as well as an actual system might help Schenn's game.
Exactly, we should have done better than Schenn. An actual system might help him, but I think he is a terrible fit in the current one

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06-23-2012, 09:02 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
He had put it all together, HE GOT HURT....kinda hard to do much when you can't skate. Again, beast in playoffs 16 points in 20 games at beginning of the season. He would have been a 30 goal scorer if healthy....and that is with little pp time.

Schenn couldn't even play top 4 in Toronto....he can't move the puck and isnt very quick, tell me how that fits in Lavi's system?

I don't disagree dmen take long to develop, so do big forwards and JVR was ahead of schedule considering he came from college and not major junior

A potential #1 lw for a potential #3 or 4 dman is not fair value in my opinion. Schenn doesn't have enough offensive skill to be a top pairing guy.
I'm sorry but I'm just not seeing what you're seeing. JvR was never consistently dominant even before he got hurt. He would use his speed to the outside and either shoot a weak shot on net or get ridden off the puck every time. I never saw him showing that he had put it together. Throughout his entire flyers career he has never shown a strong ability to use his body controlling the puck along the boards or to be creative enough to use his speed to get prime scoring chances.

To me even when he succeeded he always seemed to play like an extremely talented kid playing against men. He has all the tools to be great, but just doesn't have that aggressiveness to harness it.

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06-23-2012, 09:04 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
He had put it all together, HE GOT HURT....kinda hard to do much when you can't skate. Again, beast in playoffs 16 points in 20 games at beginning of the season. He would have been a 30 goal scorer if healthy....and that is with little pp time.

Schenn couldn't even play top 4 in Toronto....he can't move the puck and isnt very quick, tell me how that fits in Lavi's system?

I don't disagree dmen take long to develop, so do big forwards and JVR was ahead of schedule considering he came from college and not major junior

A potential #1 lw for a potential #3 or 4 dman is not fair value in my opinion. Schenn doesn't have enough offensive skill to be a top pairing guy.
Schenn was put in the dog house by Wilson. Didn't get much of a chance with Caryle. He's young. How does he play a good rookie season in Ron Wilson's same system(Which is similar to lavi) but now he can't play it? The kid just needs to get his head on right and needed a change.

The injury excuse won't cut it. Peter Forsberg could have been a 1500 point player. Lindros could have been the flyer all time scorer. Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda. The pace argument before "this and that" is weak. The fact is it didn't happen. He wasn't even dominant. Giroux WAS dominant. JVR wasn't dominant before he got hurt. I remember Schenn being touted as a 1st or 2nd defenseman. Of course its all based on potential. Just like there isn't any for sure thing that JVR becomes this 1st line winger. For all you and me know he could become a career 2nd liner. Time will tell.

Still think its a good deal for both teams.


Last edited by Alchemy: 06-23-2012 at 09:12 PM.
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06-23-2012, 09:10 PM
  #354
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I'm sorry but I'm just not seeing what you're seeing. JvR was never consistently dominant even before he got hurt. He would use his speed to the outside and either shoot a weak shot on net or get ridden off the puck every time. I never saw him showing that he had put it together. Throughout his entire flyers career he has never shown a strong ability to use his body controlling the puck along the boards or to be creative enough to use his speed to get prime scoring chances.

To me even when he succeeded he always seemed to play like an extremely talented kid playing against men. He has all the tools to be great, but just doesn't have that aggressiveness to harness it.
You don't need to see it, the numbers speak for themselves. He showed a great ability to dominate with his body, did you not watch the playoffs????? And who the hell is dominant in October and November other than superstars? 16 points in 20 games is pretty damn good.

Go back and take a look at Hartnell's numbers when you have a minute....took him 8 seasons if I remember correctly to hit 30 goals, and took him until 24 years old to really hit his stride. JVR is not 24 yet, he was ahead of the curve until he got hurt. Big forwards take a while.

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06-23-2012, 09:13 PM
  #355
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Exactly, we should have done better than Schenn. An actual system might help him, but I think he is a terrible fit in the current one
Any system is better than Wilson's system.

I'm not sure how Schenn played under Carlyle, but you have to keep in mind that Carlyle was hired after Toronto was out of the playoff race. So although he had a system (which was obviously better than Wilson's) you can't guarantee that the players fully bought into that system knowing that they were essentially "playing out the season"

There's really nothing to do but wait and see how it all plays out.

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06-23-2012, 09:13 PM
  #356
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Schenn was put in the dog house by Wilson. Didn't get much of a chance with Caryle. He's young. How does he play a good rookie season in Ron Wilson's same system(Which is similar to lavi) but now he can't play it? The kid just needs to get his head on right and needed a change.

The injury excuse won't cut it. Peter Forsberg could have been a 1500 point player. Lindros could have been the flyer all time scorer. Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda. The pace argument before "this and that" is weak. The fact is it didn't happen. He wasn't even dominant. Giroux WAS dominant. JVR wasn't dominant before he got hurt. I remember Schenn being touted as a 1st or 2nd defenseman. Of course its all based on potential. Just like there isn't any for sure thing that JVR becomes this 1st line winger. For all you and me know he could become a career 2nd liner. Time will tell.

Still think its a good deal for both teams.
Are you seriously comparing JVR to two of the best players of all time???? My discussion with you stops there....ridiculous.

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06-23-2012, 09:16 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Are you seriously comparing JVR to two of the best players of all time???? My discussion with you stops there....ridiculous.
I like how you clearly misinterpreted what i was trying to say.

For your sake it was good for you to end it.

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06-23-2012, 09:17 PM
  #358
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I haven't read the majority of the thread, but Luke Schenn could be reinvigorated by coming here.

I'm sure he's excited to play with his brother. He's used to stupid amounts of media pressure, but I think in Toronto he was seen as the basis of a rebuild when he's not. He's not gonna have that same...role here. Furthermore, seeing as he'd fallen out of favor with staff there, he was probably totally discouraged and needed a change of scene to get his groove back. Also, he's 22 years old. He's just coming into his prime.

The trade is a decent young dman with good potential for a decent young winger with great potential and injury problems. I know everyone here loved JVR. We have enough offense here that we don't exactly need him. Furthermore, who else is there to go after for D? Suter isn't signing here, and Weber would cost waaaay more if he was even available. I'm not sure of the other FAs, but from my understanding it's a little weak.

Schenn is a defenseman we can work with and develop, and at the same time helps us now and gives us some depth if somebody gets hurt.

Again, I haven't read most of the posts in this thread, so if I'm just repeating what everyone has already said, my bad.

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06-23-2012, 09:17 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by drownedsailors View Post
Any system is better than Wilson's system.

I'm not sure how Schenn played under Carlyle, but you have to keep in mind that Carlyle was hired after Toronto was out of the playoff race. So although he had a system (which was obviously better than Wilson's) you can't guarantee that the players fully bought into that system knowing that they were essentially "playing out the season"

There's really nothing to do but wait and see how it all plays out.
He looked like crap under him too, but that's a small sample....he hasn't played well since his rookie year. If he was that good, he should have been able to get out of the doghouse on a poor defensive team. Have you looked at that roster lately??

I am not saying the guy has no value at all, but his skillset was never a #1 or 2, he doesn't have enough offensive upside...he will be a 2nd pairing shut down guy, once he learns how to move the puck.

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06-23-2012, 09:19 PM
  #360
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I like how you clearly misinterpreted what i was trying to say.

For your sake it was good for you to end it.
For my sake??? It's a frigin message board, grow up.

I got your point, still makes it ridiculous.

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06-23-2012, 09:20 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Jellybagel View Post
I haven't read the majority of the thread, but Luke Schenn could be reinvigorated by coming here.

I'm sure he's excited to play with his brother. He's used to stupid amounts of media pressure, but I think in Toronto he was seen as the basis of a rebuild when he's not. He's not gonna have that same...role here. Furthermore, seeing as he'd fallen out of favor with staff there, he was probably totally discouraged and needed a change of scene to get his groove back. Also, he's 22 years old. He's just coming into his prime.

The trade is a decent young dman with good potential for a decent young winger with great potential and injury problems. I know everyone here loved JVR. We have enough offense here that we don't exactly need him. Furthermore, who else is there to go after for D? Suter isn't signing here, and Weber would cost waaaay more if he was even available. I'm not sure of the other FAs, but from my understanding it's a little weak.

Schenn is a defenseman we can work with and develop, and at the same time helps us now and gives us some depth if somebody gets hurt.

Again, I haven't read most of the posts in this thread, so if I'm just repeating what everyone has already said, my bad.
Has this organization given you any indication it can develop a defenseman??

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06-23-2012, 09:21 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
For my sake??? It's a frigin message board, grow up.

I got your point, still makes it ridiculous.
I'm not even taking it serious. I just had to get a couple internet smacks to the face in. Just having fun. You should lighten up.

Its not ridiculous. You can't say woulda, shoulda, coulda. Because it didn't happen. Look at the reality.

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06-23-2012, 09:22 PM
  #363
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Has this organization given you any indication it can develop a defenseman??
I am forever an optimist. Besides, we have some good guys in the system that could point him in the right direction.

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06-23-2012, 09:24 PM
  #364
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I'm not even taking it serious. I just had to get a couple internet smacks to the face in. Just having fun. You should lighten up.

Its not ridiculous. You can't say woulda, shoulda, coulda. Because it didn't happen. Look at the reality.
Last time I checked injuries are reality. And injuries reduce your production. It's rather simple. To complement a guy I bashed constantly when he was here, and had to stand corrected and admit i was wrong....look what Carter did in the playoffs this year when finally healthy.

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06-23-2012, 09:25 PM
  #365
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Consider this an honest Leafs' Fan's opinion on Schenn.

I was never Luke's 'fan boy', nor did I want us to draft him, but I absolutely loved Luke in his first season.

It wasn't Luke's size, hitting, or shot-blocking that stood out in his rookie season but it was his puck poise that was extremely mature. Schenn would make great outlet passes and rarely, if ever, make a mistake with the puck.

Schenn's troubles have absolutely nothing to do with "systems". It wasn't Ron Wilson's fault. It wasn't Randy Carlyle's fault. It wasn't Phanuef's fault.

In my opinion, Schenn's struggles happened incrementally, year after year. He's taken this idea that his strengths are being big, bruising and tough therefore every year he seems to really increase in muscle mass which has caused him to be incredibly slow.

The guy didn't just forget how to skate - and he was an above average skater in his rookie season - he's just gotten so heavy that he's exasperately slow.

If there's blame to be laid beyond Luke, then it's probably the Leaf's training staff which has seemingly given similiarly bad advise to other players (like Kadri a couple of years ago, who gained 10-15 pounds of upper-body strength and had zero balance as a result).

In conclusion, Schenn can still be like a Brooks Orpik in his prime, if the Flyers can get him to slim down a bit (a lot) and go back to basics.

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06-23-2012, 09:26 PM
  #366
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I am forever an optimist. Besides, we have some good guys in the system that could point him in the right direction.
Timonen and.....Timonen?? Haha

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06-23-2012, 09:27 PM
  #367
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interesting trade..

and to think i posted about JVR trade train getting warmed up when it was announced he didnt need surgery afterall..

cant say ill miss him. have no real feeling pro/con about him leaving

hopefully this leads to Carle hitting the road. cuz we all know when Homer says a deal for him can be reached to resign we know hes as good as gone..

cya Carle. dont let the door hit u in the ass on the way out

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06-23-2012, 09:29 PM
  #368
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Consider this an honest Leafs' Fan's opinion on Schenn.

I was never Luke's 'fan boy', nor did I want us to draft him, but I absolutely loved Luke in his first season.

It wasn't Luke's size, hitting, or shot-blocking that stood out in his rookie season but it was his puck poise that was extremely mature. Schenn would make great outlet passes and rarely, if ever, make a mistake with the puck.

Schenn's troubles have absolutely nothing to do with "systems". It wasn't Ron Wilson's fault. It wasn't Randy Carlyle's fault. It wasn't Phanuef's fault.

In my opinion, Schenn's struggles happened incrementally, year after year. He's taken this idea that his strengths are being big, bruising and tough therefore every year he seems to really increase in muscle mass which has caused him to be incredibly slow.

The guy didn't just forget how to skate - and he was an above average skater in his rookie season - he's just gotten so heavy that he's exasperately slow.

If there's blame to be laid beyond Luke, then it's probably the Leaf's training staff which has seemingly given similiarly bad advise to other players (like Kadri a couple of years ago, who gained 10-15 pounds of upper-body strength and had zero balance as a result).

In conclusion, Schenn can still be like a Brooks Orpik in his prime, if the Flyers can get him to slim down a bit (a lot) and go back to basics.
Interesting....let's see if the Flyers notice that. Putting on too much mass could screw with coordination....but whatever the reason he has been very mediocre since that first season.

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06-23-2012, 09:31 PM
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Timonen and.....Timonen?? Haha
Basically :p

Timmo will be a really good influence. If Pronger comes back in a non playing capacity (floating around the locker room during practices) he could be really influential. I don't know the flyers staff from a hole in the wall, but I'm sure they could give some pointers. It's not a total development as if we just drafted him. Schenn has some miles on the odometer, he's got a skill set. I think it's our job to refine it and emphasize the positives.

and if you don't buy that, he turns into a 90+ dman in NHL 12 be a gm mode. That's just as high as Weber.

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06-23-2012, 09:31 PM
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Last time I checked injuries are reality. And injuries reduce your production. It's rather simple. To complement a guy I bashed constantly when he was here, and had to stand corrected and admit i was wrong....look what Carter did in the playoffs this year when finally healthy.
You are right. Those injuries are a reality. So is durability. If you aren't a durable player then your value isn't any good. JVR had a pretty ravaged year with injuries. I don't think he will be injury prone though. Carter did nice in a support role. He wasn't the one carrying the team. He did score some big goals. Glad Carter, Richards, and especially Gagne got a cup.

Sometimes people have to realize the organization watches JVR all the time. Maybe they felt that there was an area where they wanted him to improve and he didn't do it at all and him being the bait to get a piece that they needed.

I understand the like for JVR. I think he will be a good player in this league but people around here need to step back and look at the bigger picture. Put all of the bias and skewed perception you have and try to look at this in the eyes of somebody neutral. Trying to weight the pros and cons. Risk and rewards. Schenn for JVR was a good hockey trade.

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06-23-2012, 09:34 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
Schenn was put in the dog house by Wilson. Didn't get much of a chance with Caryle. He's young. How does he play a good rookie season in Ron Wilson's same system(Which is similar to lavi) but now he can't play it? The kid just needs to get his head on right and needed a change.

The injury excuse won't cut it. Peter Forsberg could have been a 1500 point player. Lindros could have been the flyer all time scorer. Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda. The pace argument before "this and that" is weak. The fact is it didn't happen. He wasn't even dominant. Giroux WAS dominant. JVR wasn't dominant before he got hurt. I remember Schenn being touted as a 1st or 2nd defenseman. Of course its all based on potential. Just like there isn't any for sure thing that JVR becomes this 1st line winger. For all you and me know he could become a career 2nd liner. Time will tell.

Still think its a good deal for both teams.
Ron Wilson is notoriously tough on young defensemen. It's funny how the seasoj before, Schenn could do no wrong and then this past season, he could do no right. It's impossuble for any degenseman to exceed in that kind of environment. Let's not forget that five seasons into his career, many hockey execs thought Pronger wouldn't amount to anything either. With thst being sqid, the spotlight is now on Schenn and he's going to have to step it up.

As for JVR, it's too bad that things didn't work out. I just think there was so much wrong with his development. He should have never went to UNH. They are not a hockey school and he developed a lot of bad habits there. As well, he should have spent time in the AHL in order to acclimate himself with the pro game and get used to the rigors of pro hockey. The Flyers did JVR no favours at all.

The only thing I can think about this trade is that Holmgren is going the free agent route to land a scoring forward.

I'm also wondering if this means the coaching staff are going to use Coburn in a puck carrying role. After all, he did score 36 points in his first season in Philadelphia. Interesting times ahead, that's for certain.

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06-23-2012, 09:34 PM
  #372
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Pissed not because I was high on JVR (I wasn't), but because I think we should have and could have gotten more for him.

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06-23-2012, 09:35 PM
  #373
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Armchair GMs everyone dumps on homer and luke and he hasnt even played a gm for us and if he turns into a beast for us then everyone will be saying i knew it was a great trade high fives for homer.
Yup, no games for us. He's played 4 seasons for Toronto though and I own a TV. This isn't some mysterious draft prospect.

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06-23-2012, 09:37 PM
  #374
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You are right. Those injuries are a reality. So is durability. If you aren't a durable player then your value isn't any good. JVR had a pretty ravaged year with injuries. I don't think he will be injury prone though. Carter did nice in a support role. He wasn't the one carrying the team. He did score some big goals. Glad Carter, Richards, and especially Gagne got a cup.

Sometimes people have to realize the organization watches JVR all the time. Maybe they felt that there was an area where they wanted him to improve and he didn't do it at all and him being the bait to get a piece that they needed.

I understand the like for JVR. I think he will be a good player in this league but people around here need to step back and look at the bigger picture. Put all of the bias and skewed perception you have and try to look at this in the eyes of somebody neutral. Trying to weight the pros and cons. Risk and rewards. Schenn for JVR was a good hockey trade.
You don't need every player to carry your team. Carter did not carry the kings, neigh did Richards but they don't win that cup without them. JVR didn't have to carry this team. And a couple months with injury problems isn't a time to question durability. If it happens again next year maybe, but not after one season.

Do you realize this team has traded every single number 1 pick, either the player or the pick itself, from 2000 - 2010 with the exception of Giroux??? That isn't how you win. You keep your guys together and let the, develop together. JVR and Giroux had great chemistry from the beginning, and we're fine at the beginning of last season as well until the lines were moved around.

Look at LA and see how long brown/kopitar/Williams have been playing together. Look at the last few cup winners and see how many of their key players were home grown. We have less than a handful on this team. That isn't how you win championships.

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06-23-2012, 09:37 PM
  #375
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I have no problem at all with this trade......We need a big young D man,and Toronto needs a big guy on offense....Good trade for both teams, just as were the Richards and Carter trades. I think Luke needed a change of scenery,and he will get some great training from Kimmo, Coburn,etc,and i gotta believe he will certainly be energized playing with his brother as well......I wish JVR nothing but the best, he is a great guy,and full of talent.....Good job Homer !

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