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Old
06-23-2012, 07:17 PM
  #51
CobraAcesS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
wow thanks guys, just presented some stats and claimed Karlsson, the Norris Trophy winner, > O'Byrne defensively. What an outrageous claim
Karlsson was clearly not given the Norris due to his defensive prowess..

There are plenty of people that believe he shouldn't of even won it against guys like Chara/Weber and there needs to be a separate award for offensive defenders like him.

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06-23-2012, 07:21 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Right... because they were the ones used defensively. They aren't good enough to win the battle and carry it out of the zone like EJ did for the Avs, but they were good enough to keep the play outside and defend the crease, thus causing a lot of perimeter shots on net. Resulting in the huge shot disparity.

However, lots of shots against does not mean poor defensive play, in fact you can't gauge that without watching them in action or at the very least analyzing the situational stats better.

Shutdown pairings are notorious for being poorly reflected by advanced statistics, shutdown pairings also skew team QoC data (which is why people try to argue against EJ, when he was not always used against the top opposition because Hejda/ROB were).

In a situation like the Avs where we had a lot more big defensive defenders than mobile guys, we made a decision to play a shutdown pairing and use our more mobile guys for offense. This does not mean they are our best defenders, EJ was easily. But it does mean that we trusted them with difficult assignments and going by our team results they largely exceled.

This can be infered because if a pairing gets the more difficult assignments and the team as a whole has a favorable ranking defensively, it must be assumed the shutdown pairing did their job well. Otherwise you'd have to have the other 2 pairings letting in almost no goals all season to account for the GA/G the Avs have.
Sure, all right. Not claiming O'Byrne is terrible defensively, just saying
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OReally View Post
Avs fans aren't saying he is anything more than a good 3rd pairing guy.



If you're consistently playing them against 1st lines, your team is in trouble imo. That includes more than just defensive zone starts. I'm sure they did all right this season, but they shouldn't be a long term solution.

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06-23-2012, 07:24 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
Sure, all right. Not claiming O'Byrne is terrible defensively, just saying
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If you're consistently playing them against 1st lines, your team is in trouble imo. That includes more than just defensive zone starts. I'm sure they did all right this season, but they shouldn't be a long term solution.
HEY!!!!... admitting error and talking sense... who is this????,,,,,,,,,,,,,, But you need to realise the avs dont usually match line for line (defensively) they do it more positional match-ups ie special lines on defensive zone faceoffs which switch the second the puck is cleared.... It really throws off the stats but works rather effectively

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06-23-2012, 07:24 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by lxtheo View Post
A different team's fan making themselves look stupid acting like they know what they are talking about after citing one person's opinion elsewhere? Shocking.
It's not opinion, it's stats. Hejda - O'Byrne got hammered in the defensive zone. Whether most shots were just from the outside, debatable, but they are clearly not the most effective, actually the worst, at preventing shots against. And that usually translates in goals against.

O'Byrne is a 3rd pairing D. That's all I'm saying

Quote:
Originally Posted by outoftune View Post
HEY!!!!... admitting error and talking sense... who is this????,,,,,,,,,,,,,, But you need to realise the avs dont usually match line for line (defensively) they do it more positional match-ups ie special lines on defensive zone faceoffs which switch the second the puck is cleared.... It really throws off the stats but works rather effectively
Not admitting error, said from the start O'Byrne is a 3rd pairing D

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06-23-2012, 07:24 PM
  #55
Hans Landaskog
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go troll somewhere else, you comparing Karlsson to O'Byrne would be like us comparing EJ to another teams 3rd pairing Dman. Makes no sense.

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Old
06-23-2012, 07:28 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
If you're consistently playing them against 1st lines, your team is in trouble imo. That includes more than just defensive zone starts. I'm sure they did all right this season, but they shouldn't be a long term solution.
No one said they are the greatest option ever. However, this whole argument started because you acted like a team could never reach the playoffs with a shutdown pairing, especially Hejda + O'Byrne.

A playoff threat will have EJ + another top pairing guy used 25+ per night against the other team's best players. But a team that doesn't have the luxury of that can still be competitive with a shutdown pairing.

The Avs made the playoffs in 07-08 using a shutdown pairing of Sauer-Foote and Liles-Hannan as the best offensive punch we could muster. Even won a round that year.

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06-23-2012, 07:30 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
Sure, all right. Not claiming O'Byrne is terrible defensively, just saying
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If you're consistently playing them against 1st lines, your team is in trouble imo. That includes more than just defensive zone starts. I'm sure they did all right this season, but they shouldn't be a long term solution.
They are not a long term solution..

Next season they will likely be our second pair as far as minutes go at least for the first half. They are solid enough to let us add our younger players to the roster and let them grow.

Long term if they are still around after next year they would be our third pairing with Elliott/Siemens as our second pair.

We are a rebuilding team just like OTT. That includes defense.. Your not telling anyone anything they don't know.

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06-23-2012, 07:33 PM
  #58
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I give the Senators fanbase a little more of a pass for this kind of stuff, most of them seem pretty level-headed on this site, and it's obvious this guy is just trying to grief Avs fans... comparing the Norris winner to Ryan O'Byrne, sure whatever. I think 90% of the Avs fans on Hf are pretty happy with the roles those two have played on our team, and we didn't really give up any assets to get either, so I'm gonna be content to see how it goes next season. Somehow with Hejda and OByrne, who suck, and Johnson, who sucks, and Hunwick, who really sucks, we finished 13 spots higher on the defensive ratings than the team with the reigning Norris trophy winner as their number 1 D. Elliott and Barrie aren't getting any worse either.

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06-23-2012, 07:53 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
Dude, Hejda-O'Byrne might have been the very worst shutdown pair in the league last year.
They started nearly all of their shifts in the defensive zone, and the Avalanche allowed 218 goals, a three way tie for 15th (Dallas and Pittsburgh). Not great, but clearly more reliable than whoever Ottawa used as a shutdown defense pair, given that their 236 goals against ranked them 24th in the NHL.

Bottom line is the Avalanche don't do this trade because it forces them to make a defensive move in free agency.

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Old
06-23-2012, 08:02 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow1 View Post
They started nearly all of their shifts in the defensive zone, and the Avalanche allowed 218 goals, a three way tie for 15th (Dallas and Pittsburgh). Not great, but clearly more reliable than whoever Ottawa used as a shutdown defense pair, given that their 236 goals against ranked them 24th in the NHL.

Bottom line is the Avalanche don't do this trade because it forces them to make a defensive move in free agency.
I think they were using Kuba-Cowen. And Cowen had a pretty terrible last half of the year and a brutal playoffs as a rookie. He's got really good potential though.

O'Byrne has been very useful for us and don't need to trade him for a 2nd/3rd line forward, which we already have a bunch of.

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Old
06-23-2012, 08:11 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
It's not opinion, it's stats. Hejda - O'Byrne got hammered in the defensive zone. Whether most shots were just from the outside, debatable, but they are clearly not the most effective, actually the worst, at preventing shots against. And that usually translates in goals against.

O'Byrne is a 3rd pairing D. That's all I'm saying



Not admitting error, said from the start O'Byrne is a 3rd pairing D
I wonder if the additional shots they gave up had anything to do with the zones they started in?

If you're going to rely on the stats don't cherry pick them.

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06-23-2012, 08:39 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sens11 View Post
It's not opinion, it's stats. Hejda - O'Byrne got hammered in the defensive zone. Whether most shots were just from the outside, debatable, but they are clearly not the most effective, actually the worst, at preventing shots against. And that usually translates in goals against.

O'Byrne is a 3rd pairing D. That's all I'm saying
Everyone with half a lick of common sense knows that is bull****. The stats presented in the article only say that they weren't part of the offensive draws a lot. That's the ONLY thing they say. Everything else is based on a whole lot of nothing.

Extra shots mean nothing if they are put out there when in a defensive zone situation more than the most other defensemen.

If you want a realistic stat to actually make this near a sense of legitimate, get me shots vs. defensive zone ice time. Anything else is just taking stats out of context and using them incorrectly.

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06-23-2012, 08:46 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow1 View Post
They started nearly all of their shifts in the defensive zone, and the Avalanche allowed 218 goals, a three way tie for 15th (Dallas and Pittsburgh). Not great, but clearly more reliable than whoever Ottawa used as a shutdown defense pair, given that their 236 goals against ranked them 24th in the NHL.

Bottom line is the Avalanche don't do this trade because it forces them to make a defensive move in free agency.
Its laughable to see that they are better shut down pair then Ottawa's just because the TEAM allowed less goals against. I'm not even arguing that Ottawa's shutdown pairing is better but thats just a terrible argument because there is so many other factors in goals against then whose shut down pair is better. And to that Montreal fan, Kuba-Cowen played together on the PK but never at even strength.

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06-23-2012, 08:51 PM
  #64
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What the heck has this thread come to? If the Avs defence is so bad, why would the Avs further weaken it by trading O'Byrne away, considering how weak the upcoming UFA crop is?

The value in the original proposal is there, but O'Byrne is more important to the Avs than Regin would be.

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06-23-2012, 09:04 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by ErikKarlsson View Post
Its laughable to see that they are better shut down pair then Ottawa's just because the TEAM allowed less goals against. I'm not even arguing that Ottawa's shutdown pairing is better but thats just a terrible argument because there is so many other factors in goals against then whose shut down pair is better. And to that Montreal fan, Kuba-Cowen played together on the PK but never at even strength.
Colorado was 15th in GAA, 12th in PK %. Jan Hejda and Ryan O'Byrne led Avalanche defensemen in shorthanded ice time (3:03, 2:52) by a lot, and both started the whopping majority of their shifts in their own zone. O'Byrne had the smallest percentage of offensive zone starts in the entire league (32.8%), and Hejda wasn't far behind at number three (35.9%).

More clear that he/they had a positive impact?

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Old
06-23-2012, 09:07 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow1 View Post
Colorado was 15th in GAA, 12th in PK %. Jan Hejda and Ryan O'Byrne led Avalanche defensemen in shorthanded ice time (3:03, 2:52) by a lot, and both started the whopping majority of their shifts in their own zone. O'Byrne had the smallest percentage of offensive zone starts in the entire league (32.8%), and Hejda wasn't far behind at number three (35.9%).

More clear that he/they had a positive impact?
Like I said before, I'm not saying that he didn't play well and I'm not trying to slight anybody in this just the guy use TEAM goals against to judge whose shutdown pair was better when there is many different factors

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06-23-2012, 09:07 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Verschtunken View Post
What the heck has this thread come to? If the Avs defence is so bad, why would the Avs further weaken it by trading O'Byrne away, considering how weak the upcoming UFA crop is?

The value in the original proposal is there, but O'Byrne is more important to the Avs than Regin would be.
Good post.

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Old
06-23-2012, 10:04 PM
  #68
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WOW
all this attack on O'Byrne, where the biggest question is if Regin is healthy. And I would imagine his trade value is at an all time low and with 1 year before becoming a UFA. Cheap, but that shoulder has been bothering him for some time. And the Avs need to be adding to their defense not subtracting...

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06-23-2012, 10:26 PM
  #69
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oh I get it, it was Anderson's fault.


Last edited by Drij: 06-23-2012 at 10:40 PM.
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06-23-2012, 10:34 PM
  #70
Hans Landaskog
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oh I get it, it was Anderson fault.

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