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All Bobby Ryan Talk - Bobb(y)ing for Ryan Part III

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Old
06-24-2012, 01:16 AM
  #101
NYR Sting
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Originally Posted by Trance Kuja View Post
Why would you want such an inconsistent, one dimensional player that plays ten minutes a game and tries to stickhandle the entire opposing team?
Why don't you set aside your homer bias, quit taking my words out of context, and stop trying to turn the thread into a pissing match?

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06-24-2012, 01:16 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
I'm sorry, where do all the hits and takeaways come from?
Gaborik's giveaway-takeaways: 41-30
Ryan's: 49-35

Hardly different.

The glassman also had 63 hits, compared to Ryan's 113.

The difference is Ryan is supposed to be "power forward". But he doesn't really use his size nearly as much as he could. He would have been 9th on our team in hits.


Again, I'm not trying to knock Ryan. But he is just not a perfect player.

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06-24-2012, 01:17 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Trance Kuja View Post
Bobby Ryan is a great two-way player, too.
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
No, no he is not. Neither is Loui Eriksson, but he's much better defensively than Ryan, and he puts up just as many points or more.

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06-24-2012, 01:18 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
I don't need to. I have enough common sense to know that a 70 point multi-dimensional winger who plays above average defense, is as consistent as they come, is not hindered by being undersized, and is a consummate professional is going to be valued higher than relatively one-dimensional winger who scores 65-70 points, does not play defense, is not consistent, and fails to use the god given size and strength he has as often as he should.

Ryan is so big, so strong, and so talented that despite some of those drawbacks, he's still a top 15-20 winger in the league. Eriksson is without a doubt a top 10 winger, and his value is incredibly high.
If we get him, I sure hope that you are right.

I just don't see "it" in his game. He's not fast, he is soft and he is inconsistent. Kind of square and disappears from games for for l

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06-24-2012, 01:19 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Unholy View Post
Because one poster saying something is absolute.

There's a lot of stuff that is said on these boards. Maybe you should watch Ryan more instead of taking something one poster says and posting it as your own opinion.
I'm not going to pretend I watch every team in the league every game. I follow the Rangers, Sabres and Blues almost every game and try to watch every other team at least ten times or so individually.

Ryan floats a lot. As do most goal scorers. Saying he plays a two-way game and gives it his all every shift does not describe the type of player he is.

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06-24-2012, 01:20 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
I don't need to. I have enough common sense to know that a 70 point multi-dimensional winger who plays above average defense, is as consistent as they come, is not hindered by being undersized, and is a consummate professional is going to be valued higher than relatively one-dimensional winger who scores 65-70 points, does not play defense, is not consistent, and fails to use the god given size and strength he has as often as he should.

Ryan is so big, so strong, and so talented that despite some of those drawbacks, he's still a top 15-20 winger in the league. Eriksson is without a doubt a top 10 winger, and his value is incredibly high.
If we get him, I sure hope that you are right.

I just don't see "it" in his game. He's not fast, he is soft and he is inconsistent. Kind of square and disappears from games for for long stretches. He is not a playmaker nor a sniper.

He just never seem to play with a purpose.

I saw him play live for the US against Sweden before the WCH, no NHLer from the PO had joined either team and both rosters had several non-NHLers (especially the Swedish team). Ryan was the big star on the ice. He made 1 or 2 really good plays on the night, and for the rest of the night he was completely invisible...

My take on him is that he still is young but that he at this point got alot of flaws and quite honestly, is not that valuble.

On some nights he is better than Dubinsky, on many he wouldn't be.

The key if you get Ryan is to get him to take another 1-2-3 steps.


Last edited by Ola: 06-24-2012 at 01:31 AM.
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06-24-2012, 01:21 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
There can only be so many wingers (or any position) that are elite, or else there ceases to be a difference between elite and whatever comes after it: great...good...above average...whatever you want to call it.

How many elite wingers are there?

Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Hossa, D. Sedin, St. Louis, Kane, Perry, Parise, Eriksson, Nash, Iginla. Arguably Gaborik and Kessel.

You have to rank those guys above Ryan. Maybe not in terms of age or contract, but in terms of today.

So, again, how many guys get to be called elite? In my opinion, that term is reserved for a select few. Ryan would be one of the guys who would come right after those guys. He's a very, very good player.
Last 4 years

Ovechkin 176G 369P
Kovalchuk 152G 319P
Perry 146G 306P
Iginla 142G 311P
Nash 135G 271P
Kessel 135G 261P
Ryan 131G 249P
D Sedin 131G 338P
Ericsson 118G 278P
Gaborik 118G 233P (made of glass)
Parise 117G 245P (injury year)
Hossa 117G 256P
MSL 115G 347P
Kane 105G 297P

Overall points, yes, he's 3rd tier. But as a goal scoring wing he's pretty clearly in the mix for the 2nd tier group, if he actually got 1st PP time those goal numbers would likely be in the Perry-Kovalchuk region (assuming he could get 5 G a year). (Obviously Parise and Gaborik numbers are skewed due to injury).

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06-24-2012, 01:21 AM
  #108
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Why don't you show me where I offered anything? Again, try reading through the thread, then maybe you wouldn't be wasting your time and everyone else's.
Not a straight proposal but saying he is not available for trade

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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
The Rangers will not be trading Chris Kreider. If there is a trade with the Ducks for Ryan, Kreider won't be a part of it.
followed by this

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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
I am simply telling you the way it is. The Rangers will not be trading Chris Kreider. It has nothing to do with me. My personal belief is that Chris Kreider will be a great second line LW, 25-30 goals, terrific on special teams, with incredible speed and strength. I can understand why they don't want to trade him. He has tremendous value.

Now, few Ranger fans have been pushing for Ryan on HFBoards like I have. But Ryan is not an elite winger. I can name 25-30 forwards that have more value, and if I can do that, that means he is not elite. He is very good, with the potential to become elite.

The Rangers have the following untouchables: Lundqvist, Richards, Callahan, Gaborik (for now), McDonagh, Staal, Girardi, Stepan, Kreider. They would deal Del Zotto, but I don't think the Ducks will want Del Zotto. Stepan is untouchable not necessarily because he is that great, although he is a very nice young player, but because the Rangers are trying to win a Stanley Cup and if they deal him, they don't have a second line center. While apparently the Rangers wouldn't move one of Staal or Girardi for Ryan, I would have no problem doing so, but I don't believe that the Rangers would have to add more than one of Dubinsky or Anisimov or a good prospect like Miller or McIlrath. Either Staal or Girardi is as good a shut down defenseman as Ryan is a scoring winger.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the rest of the untouchable list (Lundqvist, Richards, Gaborik, Callahan, McDonagh, Kreider). They're all worthy of that label, at least to our team, or they simply aren't realistic options for trade due to clauses/contracts/age/cap hits.
You want Ryan you'll have to give something we want back... not "here choose whatever is left over from our extras bin". We are in the business to win hockey games not help the Rangers win hockey games by handing over one of our better wingers on the team.

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06-24-2012, 01:22 AM
  #109
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Can't win with anyone here, I guess. I just gave an entire paragraph putting over Eriksson and calling him one of the top 10 wingers in the game. That's not good enough.

Fine, here goes. I love Eriksson. He's one of my favorite players in the game. He's not a great defensive player. He's an above average defensive player. As has long been a tradition in this league, guys who are above average offensively and defensively often tend to get a little bit more credit on the defensive side than they deserve. I don't think Eriksson is a Selke-caliber player, but he's definitely a good defensive player.

Happy?

Flame away.

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06-24-2012, 01:23 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
Gaborik's giveaway-takeaways: 41-30
Ryan's: 49-35

Hardly different.

The glassman also had 63 hits, compared to Ryan's 113.

The difference is Ryan is supposed to be "power forward". But he doesn't really use his size nearly as much as he could. He would have been 9th on our team in hits.

Again, I'm not trying to knock Ryan. But he is just not a perfect player.
And the goalposts have squealed into their new position.

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06-24-2012, 01:29 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
Why don't you set aside your homer bias, quit taking my words out of context, and stop trying to turn the thread into a pissing match?
What homer bias? I'm a Blackhawks fan. And I wasn't taking words out of context. You're saying you want Bobby Ryan on the team, but then talk him down like he's the worst player.

You have to give to get. And scraps aren't gonna get you Ryan.

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06-24-2012, 01:34 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
And the goalposts have squealed into their new position.


I already said what I thought of him above. I think he's a floater. I think he's soft for his size. I think calling him a two-way guy is stretching it so far he's unrecognizable.

I never said he doesn't play defense. I never said he doesn't backcheck. But Gaborik also backchecks. Richards also occasionally pretends to do what he calls playing defense.

That doesn't make them two-way guys. Ryan is a guy that spends 80% of his energy in the offensive zone.


The Rangers need another guy like that. Our defense and goaltending is strong enough that the occasional lapse in forwards' defense doesn't really matter, as we have most of our forwards committed to playing just as hard on the defensive side (they should, as many of them can't play offense to save their lives).

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06-24-2012, 01:36 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Trance Kuja View Post
What homer bias? I'm a Blackhawks fan. And I wasn't taking words out of context. You're saying you want Bobby Ryan on the team, but then talk him down like he's the worst player.
In all fairness, he hasn't really said that. He's just being realistic and its coming off as "bashing" in a way.

Like saying Crosby is great, but could be more physical. Its almost a negative point of view. It's not wrong though, and shouldn't be mistaken for bashing.

Ryan is a great goal scorer who isn't great defensively. There's nothing wrong with that at all. The same could be said for ovechkin when he scored 68 goals.

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06-24-2012, 01:37 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Last 4 years

Ovechkin 176G 369P
Kovalchuk 152G 319P
Perry 146G 306P
Iginla 142G 311P
Nash 135G 271P
Kessel 135G 261P
Ryan 131G 249P
D Sedin 131G 338P
Ericsson 118G 278P
Gaborik 118G 233P (made of glass)
Parise 117G 245P (injury year)
Hossa 117G 256P
MSL 115G 347P
Kane 105G 297P

Overall points, yes, he's 3rd tier. But as a goal scoring wing he's pretty clearly in the mix for the 2nd tier group, if he actually got 1st PP time those goal numbers would likely be in the Perry-Kovalchuk region (assuming he could get 5 G a year). (Obviously Parise and Gaborik numbers are skewed due to injury).
Well, when I rank players in terms of value, I don't take such arbitrary stipulations into account. In terms of points and two-way play, almost all of those guys are better than Ryan. I don't understand why that is insulting. Those are great, great players, and Ryan is, IMO, just a notch below them. Heck, as a fan, I like Ryan a lot more than I like Ovechkin. But that doesn't mean I would take Ryan over Ovechkin.

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You want Ryan you'll have to give something we want back... not "here choose whatever is left over from our extras bin". We are in the business to win hockey games not help the Rangers win hockey games by handing over one of our better wingers on the team.
I see what the problem is. Even though my username reads NYR Sting, you see Glen Sather. Here's what I'd suggest. Obviously, you're angry. So write an e-mail or a letter to Glen Sather and make sure to include your all of your attitude and pent up aggression in it. You seem to have me confused with him. I'm not the general manager of the Rangers. I don't determine whether Chris Kreider is untouchable or not. What I can do, however, is read dozens of articles and quotes that say as much, and then repeat that here whenever fans of other teams include Chris Kreider in proposals. I won't have to do anything, because I don't make the decisions.

And, even though I've already said it IN THIS THREAD numerous times, if it were up to me, I'd hand over a lot more than the Rangers actually seem willing to give in order to acquire Ryan. I guess that got lost when I dared to say that Ryan wasn't elite, even though that's an opinion that all of HFBoards apparently agrees with, according to the latest player ranking polls, and an opinion that will probably be validated by NHL GMs when Ryan is traded for something far less than you'll deem satisfactory.

By the way, maybe you should also write a letter to Bob Murray and give him a few lessons on how to handle his players, and then maybe he wouldn't be in the position where one of the better wingers on his team was trying to force Murray to hand him over to the big, bad Rangers and Flyers. I'd also suggest including a tidbit about how to make sure your drafted and highly-touted draft picks don't sour on your franchise before they ever play a single game, but that's a story for another thread.

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06-24-2012, 01:41 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
By the way, maybe you should also write a letter to Bob Murray and give him a few lessons on how to handle his players, and then maybe he wouldn't be in the position where one of the better wingers on his team was trying to force Murray to hand him over to the big, bad Rangers and Flyers. I'd also suggest including a tidbit about how to make sure your drafted and highly-touted draft picks don't sour on your franchise before they ever play a single game, but that's a story for another thread.
Ryan isn't forcing anything right now. If that's how you want to take his statements that's fine, everyone else seems to be blowing it up as well.

And really? Schultz is the one with character issues and you want to pin that on Murray? Please.

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06-24-2012, 01:41 AM
  #116
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What homer bias? I'm a Blackhawks fan. And I wasn't taking words out of context. You're saying you want Bobby Ryan on the team, but then talk him down like he's the worst player.

You have to give to get. And scraps aren't gonna get you Ryan.
Are you serious? Really? I said that Bobby Ryan was a top 15-20 winger, but not a top 10 winger. That's talking him down like he's the worst player? I said that I'd be willing to give up either Marc Staal or Dan Girardi for him, plus one of the Rangers' top prospects. You equate that with scraps?

What the hell are you talking about?

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06-24-2012, 01:43 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Unholy View Post
Ryan isn't forcing anything right now. If that's how you want to take his statements that's fine, everyone else seems to be blowing it up as well.

And really? Schultz is the one with character issues and you want to pin that on Murray? Please.
Unholy, you're a good poster. I'm surprised that you think I was being serious there. I don't actually think that's the case in either of those situations. I actually think Ryan acted a tad unprofessionally, and while I'd be thrilled if the Rangers added Schultz, I think Schultz is acting like a *******, and I personally hate when prospects do that sort of thing. I think it sets a terrible precedent and is incredibly unfair to teams.

I added those tidbits because I didn't care for the unwarranted attitude I was getting from that poster.

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06-24-2012, 01:44 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
I see what the problem is. Even though my username reads NYR Sting, you see Glen Sather. Here's what I'd suggest. Obviously, you're angry. So write an e-mail or a letter to Glen Sather and make sure to include your all of your attitude and pent up aggression in it. You seem to have me confused with him. I'm not the general manager of the Rangers. I don't determine whether Chris Kreider is untouchable or not. What I can do, however, is read dozens of articles and quotes that say as much, and then repeat that here whenever fans of other teams include Chris Kreider in proposals. I won't have to do anything, because I don't make the decisions.

And, even though I've already said it IN THIS THREAD numerous times, if it were up to me, I'd hand over a lot more than the Rangers actually seem willing to give in order to acquire Ryan. I guess that got lost when I dared to say that Ryan wasn't elite, even though that's an opinion that all of HFBoards apparently agrees with, according to the latest player ranking polls, and an opinion that will probably be validated by NHL GMs when Ryan is traded for something far less than you'll deem satisfactory.

By the way, maybe you should also write a letter to Bob Murray and give him a few lessons on how to handle his players, and then maybe he wouldn't be in the position where one of the better wingers on his team was trying to force Murray to hand him over to the big, bad Rangers and Flyers. I'd also suggest including a tidbit about how to make sure your drafted and highly-touted draft picks don't sour on your franchise before they ever play a single game, but that's a story for another thread.
Aw... bashing the whole organization now... I must've hit a sore spot when I proved you wrong. Stay classy!

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06-24-2012, 01:44 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
Are you serious? Really? I said that Bobby Ryan was a top 15-20 winger, but not a top 10 winger. That's talking him down like he's the worst player? I said that I'd be willing to give up either Marc Staal or Dan Girardi for him, plus one of the Rangers' top prospects. You equate that with scraps?

What the hell are you talking about?
That last part wasn't directed at you. An exaggeration, yes, but you were talking him down.

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06-24-2012, 01:47 AM
  #120
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Unholy, you're a good poster. I'm surprised that you think I was being serious there. I don't actually think that's the case in either of those situations. I actually think Ryan acted a tad unprofessionally, and while I'd be thrilled if the Rangers added Schultz, I think Schultz is acting like a *******, and I personally hate when prospects do that sort of thing. I think it sets a terrible precedent and is incredibly unfair to teams.

I added those tidbits because I didn't care for the unwarranted attitude I was getting from that poster.
I'm at work right now and I'm handling a lot so I'm a bit everywhere right now. Taking those notes and your last sentence then I understand what you were doing but when I first read that and thought you were serious I just had to say something about it.

All good on that then.

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06-24-2012, 01:49 AM
  #121
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If we get him, I sure hope that you are right.

I just don't see "it" in his game. He's not fast, he is soft and he is inconsistent. Kind of square and disappears from games for for long stretches. He is not a playmaker nor a sniper.

He just never seem to play with a purpose.

I saw him play live for the US against Sweden before the WCH, no NHLer from the PO had joined either team and both rosters had several non-NHLers (especially the Swedish team). Ryan was the big star on the ice. He made 1 or 2 really good plays on the night, and for the rest of the night he was completely invisible...

My take on him is that he still is young but that he at this point got alot of flaws and quite honestly, is not that valuble.

On some nights he is better than Dubinsky, on many he wouldn't be.

The key if you get Ryan is to get him to take another 1-2-3 steps.
Dubinsky career 0.21GPG 0.54PPG
Ryan career 0.41GPG 0.78PPG

Dubinsky '11-12 0.13GPG 0.44PPG
RYAN '11-12 0.38GPG 0.70PPG

What, exactly, are you watching? Ryan isn't trying out for 3rd line energy wing.

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06-24-2012, 01:54 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
Well, when I rank players in terms of value, I don't take such arbitrary stipulations into account. In terms of points and two-way play, almost all of those guys are better than Ryan. I don't understand why that is insulting. Those are great, great players, and Ryan is, IMO, just a notch below them. Heck, as a fan, I like Ryan a lot more than I like Ovechkin. But that doesn't mean I would take Ryan over Ovechkin.
Who said I was insulted? I just listed the statistics. The fact that the other guys are better in points means they are better setup guys. And the numbers say Kane, Hossa, Kessel, and Eriksson aren't really in a different category than Ryan was all I was showing. Discussing intangibles is stupid IMO, nobody ever agrees.

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06-24-2012, 01:58 AM
  #123
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That last part wasn't directed at you. An exaggeration, yes, but you were talking him down.
If it was to me, then, the only offer I put forward was Staal+Hagelin for Ryan+something small.
Would something like that happen? I doubt it because according to all reports Staal is not on the table for trade offers.


The only other thing I said (and these were both in the second thread) was that if a return was made from the NYR it would likely be something like Hagelin+Anisimov+1st/top prospect

It seems reasonable because it increases Anaheim's offensive depth right now, decreases their salary output, doesn't include anybody our beat writers Slats said was off the table (thought many Rangers fans will not like Hagelin going). I also said I doubted Anaheim fans would like it. I just thought it would be the kind of return I wouldn't be surprised to see if it came from Sather.

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06-24-2012, 02:00 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by duckaroosky View Post
Aw... bashing the whole organization now... I must've hit a sore spot when I proved you wrong. Stay classy!
Like I said above, I wasn't being serious. I'm still waiting to see how you proved me wrong. As far as class, I don't see anything of the sort coming from you and your unwarranted attitude.


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Originally Posted by Trance Kuja View Post
That last part wasn't directed at you. An exaggeration, yes, but you were talking him down.
If talking him down means giving my take on his game, then okay.

Just as an example, although it isn't quite the same thing, here's a Ducks fan's thoughts on Ryan.

Quote:
Bobby, on the other hand, is more of a one on one player, as is evidenced by his career highlight reel: The Legwand Double Deke, the Spin-o-rama Hat Trick goal against the Kings, and countless others where he makes his patented move flying up the left wing cutting across the crease and delaying to slam it home on his forehand side. That kind of thing is great to watch - when it works. But for every time he wows us with his terminal case of dangleitis, there are at least three or four times he gets shut down by a defender basically standing still. His "try, try again' mentality is definitely admirable, but it doesn't really help anyone else succeed.
This makes no mention of his lack of defensive accumen, but it speaks to his consistency issues, particularly when it comes to effectively using his size and strength. He doesn't do so nearly enough. He does it sometimes, but too often he tries to fancy his way to the scoresheet.

Again, that's not enough of a drawback to deter me. I want him on my team, and I'm willing to give up one of my team's best players for him, but that doesn't mean that I'm not cognizant of his several, very real flaws as a player.

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06-24-2012, 02:00 AM
  #125
Trance Kuja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamitter View Post
If it was to me, then, the only offer I put forward was Staal+Hagelin for Ryan+something small.
Would something like that happen? I doubt it because according to all reports Staal is not on the table for trade offers.
I think the Ducks want Stepan+.

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