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How does the Schenn/JVR trade impact the D

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Old
06-24-2012, 01:22 AM
  #51
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Does anyone else have a BAD feeling that they're going to trade Couturier? With the 1st rounder used on Laughton, and trading Jvr for Luke Schenn, which means that Brayden obviously isn't going to go anywhere, I just have a bad feeling that they're thinking of trading Couturier. I REALLY hope I'm wrong. Someone talk me out of this mental state.

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06-24-2012, 01:24 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Does anyone else have a BAD feeling that they're going to trade Couturier? With the 1st rounder used on Laughton, and trading Jvr for Luke Schenn, which means that Brayden obviously isn't going to go anywhere, I just have a bad feeling that they're thinking of trading Couturier. I REALLY hope I'm wrong. Someone talk me out of this mental state.
If they were going to trade Couts I am sure he would be traded already. Trading your best defensive forward on a team that doesn't know how to play defense within their forwards would be a bad idea.

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06-24-2012, 01:29 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by flyersfan187 View Post
If they were going to trade Couts I am sure he would be traded already. Trading your best defensive forward on a team that doesn't know how to play defense within their forwards would be a bad idea.
Which is precisely why I'm worried about it! I think maybe the organization is still higher on Schenn than Couts, and feels like Schenn can become a more well rounded shut down/2nd line center with a little more offensive upside. I agree that Schenns offensive potential is greater than Couturiers, but I think Couturier will be a better player in the long run. I just get that feeling. I just really would not be surprised if Couturier were traded for someone like Nash or Ryan... But like I said I really hope my feelings are false.

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06-24-2012, 01:55 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Does anyone else have a BAD feeling that they're going to trade Couturier? With the 1st rounder used on Laughton, and trading Jvr for Luke Schenn, which means that Brayden obviously isn't going to go anywhere, I just have a bad feeling that they're thinking of trading Couturier. I REALLY hope I'm wrong. Someone talk me out of this mental state.
I just don't think so man. Couturier is everything we need to keep.

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06-24-2012, 01:58 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Does anyone else have a BAD feeling that they're going to trade Couturier? With the 1st rounder used on Laughton, and trading Jvr for Luke Schenn, which means that Brayden obviously isn't going to go anywhere, I just have a bad feeling that they're thinking of trading Couturier. I REALLY hope I'm wrong. Someone talk me out of this mental state.
Couturier is going to be the next Kopitar. We won't trade him!

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06-24-2012, 02:00 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by 46zone View Post
Gus can't handle a good forecheck, I'd rather have Bourdon or Manning out there if we're going that route.
hes had how many games at the NHL level? typical BS around here. dump on the young defenseman. young forwards? they can make as many mistakes while they are growing as NHL players.
So sick and tired of how this organization and fanbase view young defenseman.


Last edited by GoneFullHextall: 06-24-2012 at 02:15 AM.
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06-24-2012, 02:06 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Which is precisely why I'm worried about it! I think maybe the organization is still higher on Schenn than Couts, and feels like Schenn can become a more well rounded shut down/2nd line center with a little more offensive upside. I agree that Schenns offensive potential is greater than Couturiers, but I think Couturier will be a better player in the long run. I just get that feeling. I just really would not be surprised if Couturier were traded for someone like Nash or Ryan... But like I said I really hope my feelings are false.
what makes you say that?
from juniors:

(schenn)
GP G A Pts PIM +/-
66 28 43 71 48 22
70 32 56 88 82 20
59 34 65 99 55 41

(couturier)
GP G A Pts PIM +/-
58 9 22 31 14 24
68 41 55 96 47 62
58 36 60 96 36 55


like we all know, cooter had mono.
Couturier has the shot of a bonafide sniper, and he's a playmaker first. I really believe if he picks up in his skating, and puck handling he's the better offensive player.

(not at all a shot on schenn...btw I mean BSchenn, now that we'll need to start clarifying )

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06-24-2012, 07:43 AM
  #58
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Sign Carle to ~$4.5:

Carle - Coburn
Timonen - Schenn
Grossmann - Meszaros

PP:

x - x - x
Timonen - x

x - x - x
Carle - Meszaros

PK:

x - x
Grossmann - Coburn

x - x
Timonen/Meszaros - Schenn

Greatly improves the defense IMO. Gives us that physical right-handed defensemen who has some TWD potential. For now he's a top-6 DFD (similar to Grossmann) but he's 22 years old. Takes pressure off the entire defense. I think Schenn will excel in our system, such like Grossmann did since we acquired him. Each pairing can now have a 'puck-mover' or TWD and a stay-at-home kinda guy.

Stoked. Hope we sign either bottom-6 forwards or resign Jagr.

Roll forwards like:

Hartnell - Giroux - Jagr
Schenn - Briere - Voracek
Read - Couturier - Simmonds
Wellwood - xxx - Talbot

All depending on Jagr. If Jagr leaves, Voracek 1st line and Simmonds 2nd, Talbot on 3rd. Sign solid bottom 6'ers (like Talbot last year) and we'll be set. I'd love to get Bobby Ryan or Nash but not if it's gonna cost the Schenn brothers.

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06-24-2012, 10:21 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unstable View Post
The thing is, our D isn't *that* bad. If Carle resigns for the right amount he's a great keep, as broadstreethockey has blogged exclusively. Grossman(n?) is solid, Coburn is solid, sure Kimmo is old but if Schenn starts moving in the right direction I'd be very happy with those 5 and MAB.

Yeah yeah, exposed by NJ, but that was a total team meltdown. This is another reason not to panic and trade Couts for Ryan or someone else - he's our best defensive forward.

Edit: Forgot about Mez entirely what with his injuries!
The defense itself isnt that bad, I agree....its the overall team defense that is atrocious, other than Hartnell, Read, Couturier, none of these forwards play any defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Does anyone else have a BAD feeling that they're going to trade Couturier? With the 1st rounder used on Laughton, and trading Jvr for Luke Schenn, which means that Brayden obviously isn't going to go anywhere, I just have a bad feeling that they're thinking of trading Couturier. I REALLY hope I'm wrong. Someone talk me out of this mental state.
If they do, I am done with this team.....the movement is just ridiculous year after year, the hockey gods are on our side for once and he falls to us in the draft...they need to keep him and build around him. I would have been ok with trading Schenn, but I obviously dont see that happening now unless they are both moved together.

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06-24-2012, 10:24 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyflyerfan1992 View Post
Sign Carle to ~$4.5:

Carle - Coburn
Timonen - Schenn
Grossmann - Meszaros

PP:

x - x - x
Timonen - x

x - x - x
Carle - Meszaros

PK:

x - x
Grossmann - Coburn

x - x
Timonen/Meszaros - Schenn

Greatly improves the defense IMO. Gives us that physical right-handed defensemen who has some TWD potential. For now he's a top-6 DFD (similar to Grossmann) but he's 22 years old. Takes pressure off the entire defense. I think Schenn will excel in our system, such like Grossmann did since we acquired him. Each pairing can now have a 'puck-mover' or TWD and a stay-at-home kinda guy.

Stoked. Hope we sign either bottom-6 forwards or resign Jagr.

Roll forwards like:

Hartnell - Giroux - Jagr
Schenn - Briere - Voracek
Read - Couturier - Simmonds
Wellwood - xxx - Talbot

All depending on Jagr. If Jagr leaves, Voracek 1st line and Simmonds 2nd, Talbot on 3rd. Sign solid bottom 6'ers (like Talbot last year) and we'll be set. I'd love to get Bobby Ryan or Nash but not if it's gonna cost the Schenn brothers.
Two concerns with those line, 1) Can Jagr do another year on the top line? Maybe, but i wouldnt count on it....2) I would keep the combination for that 2nd line, but go Voracek/Schenn/Briere - Schenn was dreadful defensively last year, but he will get better as he is a good two way player. I was always a big defender of Briere at center, but now that the team has let Leino go and Harntell is on a different line, plus him getting older I think it is time for him to move to wing.

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06-24-2012, 10:25 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
Which is precisely why I'm worried about it! I think maybe the organization is still higher on Schenn than Couts, and feels like Schenn can become a more well rounded shut down/2nd line center with a little more offensive upside. I agree that Schenns offensive potential is greater than Couturiers, but I think Couturier will be a better player in the long run. I just get that feeling. I just really would not be surprised if Couturier were traded for someone like Nash or Ryan... But like I said I really hope my feelings are false.
I sure hope your feelings are false too...I am with you 100%

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06-24-2012, 10:44 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
hes had how many games at the NHL level? typical BS around here. dump on the young defenseman. young forwards? they can make as many mistakes while they are growing as NHL players.
So sick and tired of how this organization and fanbase view young defenseman.
I actually wonder if it's the organization that has caused the fans to give up young players too quickly because they do it themselves, or if the fan base has caused the organization to give up on the kids because of pressure to win now. The similarities in their way of thinking can't be coincidence.

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06-24-2012, 10:58 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
hes had how many games at the NHL level? typical BS around here. dump on the young defenseman. young forwards? they can make as many mistakes while they are growing as NHL players.
So sick and tired of how this organization and fanbase view young defenseman.
Agree 100%...Gus was very good last year. He played protected minutes like all young dmen, but was still really good and desereves the chance to be there fulltime.

They are terrible with young players period. No patience at all.

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06-24-2012, 11:05 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
what makes you say that?
from juniors:

(schenn)
GP G A Pts PIM +/-
66 28 43 71 48 22
70 32 56 88 82 20
59 34 65 99 55 41

(couturier)
GP G A Pts PIM +/-
58 9 22 31 14 24
68 41 55 96 47 62
58 36 60 96 36 55


like we all know, cooter had mono.
Couturier has the shot of a bonafide sniper, and he's a playmaker first. I really believe if he picks up in his skating, and puck handling he's the better offensive player.

(not at all a shot on schenn...btw I mean BSchenn, now that we'll need to start clarifying )
I'm just talking in terms of potential. You very well could be right, and couturier may become the more offensive player. I just feel that schenn may have a bit more offensive potentials. Whether or not he reaches that is another story, because I ALSO believe that couts has a better shot at reaching his full potential than schenn does.

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06-24-2012, 12:26 PM
  #65
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My guess is Carle gets signed and Mez gets dealt.

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06-24-2012, 12:29 PM
  #66
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this to team needs to be more patient. the team has a plan for coutts. he is a keeper. now after losing jvr for luke, snyder is smart enough not to blow up the team for a 2nd year in a row. he and management know a little tweeking is the proper way to build a young championship team. coutts and luke both need to improve their skating speed and they will. brayden and luke are both young,hungry,competitive,hard working. they help each other. luke will teach brayden in areas he needs to improve. and brayden will help luke in areas he needs to improve. the first is losing 10 lbs and improving speed. i think you guys are underestimating how much playing together in junior and being friends can be used to helping a guy decide on which team he should go to. after freeing up 6.5M after losing timmo, we will have cash to go after guys like weber. this will be an advantage vs other suitors, pitts,nyr,detroit,toronto. then weber can see, we have a very talented young team, and that he can move us higher. to the level of being a dynasty.

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06-24-2012, 12:36 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
hes had how many games at the NHL level? typical BS around here. dump on the young defenseman. young forwards? they can make as many mistakes while they are growing as NHL players.
So sick and tired of how this organization and fanbase view young defenseman.
I didn't say Gus was a bad player. I just don't think he can handle a good forecheck, he makes poor decisions with the puck when pressured in his own zone. I thought he looked good prior to getting hurt, when Laviolette was giving him 18 minutes a game, but in the second half of the season he was pretty average. I like Gus, I just happen to prefer Bourdon (forget Manning now that I think about it).

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06-24-2012, 12:52 PM
  #68
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I never thought about it, but with the trade for Schenn, I bet that Carle is locked up on July 1st. Then the flyers going after Ryan giving up Mez.

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06-24-2012, 01:14 PM
  #69
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as of right now, it doesnt seem like carle is going to resigned even nhl network said he's most likely going to fa, they never said anything about him being resigned here, so it means he's gone

i wouldnt be surprised if they signed zach p, they took jagr from pittsburgh and they could take zach p from pittsburgh, as long as they sign a good first line winger for a descent price even if not zach p, it's fine

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06-24-2012, 01:16 PM
  #70
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Hope everyone realizes this puts pressure on Carle's agent and Holmgren has leverage now. They both know Carle wants to stay.

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06-24-2012, 01:24 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protest View Post
I actually wonder if it's the organization that has caused the fans to give up young players too quickly because they do it themselves, or if the fan base has caused the organization to give up on the kids because of pressure to win now. The similarities in their way of thinking can't be coincidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Agree 100%...Gus was very good last year. He played protected minutes like all young dmen, but was still really good and desereves the chance to be there fulltime.

They are terrible with young players period. No patience at all.
yeah remember 2010? we had 2 kids on the bottom pairing who played about 6 minutes a night because they werent trusted. you gotta play the kids and let em make mistakes. I like some of the younger guys like Gus and Bourdon. are they elite top end guys? of course not but they will and should be solid NHL defenseman sometime down the line. Got to have patience. They wont learn a thing by having em rot in the AHL. Both these kids have shown they can play at the NHL level when given the chance. Its a reason why the Lilja signing ticked me off. just another sign they will only play the young defenseman unless there is injury.

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06-24-2012, 01:31 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I never thought about it, but with the trade for Schenn, I bet that Carle is locked up on July 1st. Then the flyers going after Ryan giving up Mez.
Now that JVR is gone what's the center peice for a bobby Ryan trade? Mez won't be nearly enough IMO.

Plus if a dman is traded we're right back where we started, looking for defensive help. Actually I think the Flyers would be worse off then before considering they would have essentially just swapped a dman (say Mez) for Schenn.

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06-24-2012, 01:39 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
yeah remember 2010? we had 2 kids on the bottom pairing who played about 6 minutes a night because they werent trusted. you gotta play the kids and let em make mistakes. I like some of the younger guys like Gus and Bourdon. are they elite top end guys? of course not but they will and should be solid NHL defenseman sometime down the line. Got to have patience. They wont learn a thing by having em rot in the AHL. Both these kids have shown they can play at the NHL level when given the chance. Its a reason why the Lilja signing ticked me off. just another sign they will only play the young defenseman unless there is injury.
I agree with most of what your are saying in respect to patience. However, with injuries piling up on D year after year, it's not a bad thing for a prospect to start the season in the AHL and being called up at some point after gaining some confidence buy playing big minutes in the A.

Of course they could pencil in Gus or Bourdon as the Nr.5/6 from the beginning but in fact we all know injuries will happen - just think about Timonen and Meszaros both recovering from back surgery, or Grossman's knees. And for now you can't trust Bourdon nor Gus in a Nr3/4 role...at least I'm not convinced.

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06-24-2012, 01:42 PM
  #74
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I agree with most of what your are saying in respect to patience. However, with injuries piling up on D year after year, it's not a bad thing for a prospect to start the season in the AHL and being called up at some point after gaining some confidence buy playing big minutes in the A.

Of course they could pencil in Gus or Bourdon as the Nr.5/6 from the beginning but in fact we all know injuries will happen - just think about Timonen and Meszaros both recovering from back surgery, or Grossman's knees. And for now you can't trust Bourdon nor Gus in a Nr3/4 role...at least I'm not convinced.
nothing wrong with having ready young dmen in the AHL. Thats not what I was getting at. its signing bums like Lilja instead of giving one of the kids a shot.

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06-24-2012, 02:07 PM
  #75
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For now i think everything depends on July 1. Here are soem hypothetical situations (for elite players) everyone will probably hate but could probably turn out awesome:

Get Suter on FA: Free up both Schenns to be traded as centrepiece in a deal for Nash (or Ryan).

Get Parise on FA: Free up both Schenns to be traded as centrepiece in a deal for Weber (who is gonna hang on as an RFA to see what happens in Nashville - isn't there also some rule about arbitration having done it once?).

Get Wideman of FA: Trade Mesz plus a forward (and whatever) for Ryan, resign Jagr.

Resign Jagr: Free up both Schenns to be traded as centrepiece in a deal for Weber.

Resign Carle: Just plug some gaps with minor UFA players. Take a run at Weber next year / deadline day using whatever looks good at the time.

Presuming the cap goes up (even just a couple of mill) all this fits. We have a lot of options... So I wouldn't expect anything more til FA.

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