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The KHL Discuss the Continental Hockey League (Kontinentalnaya Hokkeynaya Liga).

Medvedev wants to expand to 64 teams

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Old
06-24-2012, 04:08 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by vsk92 View Post
There's two I think Antti Herlin & Poju Zabludowicz and if they were interested in buying a hockey club they woud have done so by now so I don't think they would change they're minds
maybe SM-Liiga club is not interested for them, but KHL team would be. Look at CKD Group, this company did not support any czech league club in past as I know, but CKD Group is co-owner HC LEV Prague because KHL is more interested for the company. I dont know Antti & Poju, but who knows?

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Yeah other team's have better players, but HIFK would not be able to afford high wages
why would not? HIFK would have to increase budget, so could afford better players. Yes, not players like Crosby or so, but I am sure, HIFK could afford better players than today. At least, your club could keep best juniors. Look at Slovan, do you think club could lure Kytnar, Bliznak etc last season? No, did not.

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I don't want the club to lose heritage
why to lose heritage? I dont see any reason for doing it. Look at Slovan Bratislava. Do you know whats PR agenda of club nowadays? I tell you it... "We are joining KHL as oldest club of league, which is celebrating 90th anniversary this year"

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06-24-2012, 04:15 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by vsk92 View Post
There's two I think Antti Herlin & Poju Zabludowicz
Poju is one of Tappara's owners at the moment.

I guess that if some finnish team will join the KHL it won't get much audience. If my team Jokerit will join the KHL I promise that I don't watch Jokerit games anymore. I'm not interested at all to look some russian clubs. It won't work in Finland. Nobody isn't care about random russian hockey clubs. Even SaiPa is interesting team than Kazan.

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06-24-2012, 04:24 AM
  #203
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Poju is one of Tappara's owners at the moment.
Well that shows how much I know

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06-24-2012, 04:54 AM
  #204
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I strongly disagree with this opinion. This system of parity is one of the main things that annoys me about the NHL. And creating the same type of league in Europe would for sure kill my remaining interest in hockey outside of international tournaments. This is not part of the European sports culture. All top football leagues work just fine without something like this and you cant say that fans of the worse teams are not having fun.
Actually, the European football leagues don't work fine at all. There is a reason UEFA is trying to introduce "financial fairplay". Pretty much all leagues lose millions, overall it goes into billions. Teams that actually try to work with the money they have are at a significant disadvantage, because other teams just throw around money they don't really have. If the federations in England, Spain, Italy or France would use a proper licensing system, most of the big teams would have been thrown out of the leagues a long time ago, and even a federation like in Germany, which does have a proper system, cheats a bit to keep bigger names up, even if they don't deserve it.

Add the joke that is the Champions League (from a financial point of view) and the entire system went bonkers. UEFA really screwed up when they increased the size of the CL and put all the money in there. Up until very recently, you could lose ever single group game in the CL and still end up making more money than the UEFA Cup / Europa League champion. Before that, you actually had to properly manage your team and clever people could lead a smaller team to the top and stay there for a while. Now you have the rich teams making all the money, because they are playing CL on a yearly basis, while the rest has no real chance. Occasionally a team gets close to the top, only to drop down again because the bigger teams will throw money at all their good players.


As for hockey, most of Western Europe could not finance a KHL-team. There simply is not enough interest in hockey to sustain such a team. The odd billionaire would maybe have the money for it, but they usually aren't interested in losing money if they don't have to, and they would have to lose a colossal amount of money to finance a KHL-team.

Taking Germany as a an example, most teams are hard-pressed to find enough money for the DEL. There are three teams who maybe could do it in theory, Mannheim, Berlin and Hamburg. The last two are owned by Anschütz, and both are raking in huge losses playing in the DEL, even though Berlin is winning everything there is. Mannheim is even richer than that, but even they only spend up to 7-8 million per year, and aren't exactly making money on it either, if anything their losses should be higher than Berlin's.
Now, if the not so rich teams can't even finance themselves in the DEL, and the richer teams have the choice between being a bottom-dweller in the KHL while losing a lot of money or being a yearly candidate for the title in the DEL, why would they choose the KHL?

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06-24-2012, 04:55 AM
  #205
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I'm surprised it took him this long to completely snap.

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06-24-2012, 05:46 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Sanderson View Post
Actually, the European football leagues don't work fine at all. There is a reason UEFA is trying to introduce "financial fairplay". Pretty much all leagues lose millions, overall it goes into billions. Teams that actually try to work with the money they have are at a significant disadvantage, because other teams just throw around money they don't really have. If the federations in England, Spain, Italy or France would use a proper licensing system, most of the big teams would have been thrown out of the leagues a long time ago, and even a federation like in Germany, which does have a proper system, cheats a bit to keep bigger names up, even if they don't deserve it.

Add the joke that is the Champions League (from a financial point of view) and the entire system went bonkers. UEFA really screwed up when they increased the size of the CL and put all the money in there. Up until very recently, you could lose ever single group game in the CL and still end up making more money than the UEFA Cup / Europa League champion. Before that, you actually had to properly manage your team and clever people could lead a smaller team to the top and stay there for a while. Now you have the rich teams making all the money, because they are playing CL on a yearly basis, while the rest has no real chance. Occasionally a team gets close to the top, only to drop down again because the bigger teams will throw money at all their good players.


As for hockey, most of Western Europe could not finance a KHL-team. There simply is not enough interest in hockey to sustain such a team. The odd billionaire would maybe have the money for it, but they usually aren't interested in losing money if they don't have to, and they would have to lose a colossal amount of money to finance a KHL-team.

Taking Germany as a an example, most teams are hard-pressed to find enough money for the DEL. There are three teams who maybe could do it in theory, Mannheim, Berlin and Hamburg. The last two are owned by Anschütz, and both are raking in huge losses playing in the DEL, even though Berlin is winning everything there is. Mannheim is even richer than that, but even they only spend up to 7-8 million per year, and aren't exactly making money on it either, if anything their losses should be higher than Berlin's.
Now, if the not so rich teams can't even finance themselves in the DEL, and the richer teams have the choice between being a bottom-dweller in the KHL while losing a lot of money or being a yearly candidate for the title in the DEL, why would they choose the KHL?
I dont think the clubs or leagues losing money is a problem as long as they pay their debts. The club owners should be concerned about that, not the fans. If the owners dont mind putting money into a black hole, I, as a consumer of that product, am the last person to complain.

I never said they should join the KHL, I just said I dont want the league in Europe forced into parity the way NHL is.

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06-24-2012, 05:58 AM
  #207
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NHL clubs are losing money as well... they dont have better financial system than euro soccer clubs have

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06-24-2012, 07:03 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
NHL clubs are losing money as well... they dont have better financial system than euro soccer clubs have
It is a far better system for parity than what European football has. Revenue sharing alone helps to cover the losses for some teams. It's not perfect by no means due to the rising salary cap and floor, paradoxically caused by increasing leaguewide revenues but more teams are making profit than before and most importantly, more teams compared to most European football leagues.

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06-24-2012, 07:10 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by raystorm View Post
Poju is one of Tappara's owners at the moment.

I guess that if some finnish team will join the KHL it won't get much audience. If my team Jokerit will join the KHL I promise that I don't watch Jokerit games anymore. I'm not interested at all to look some russian clubs. It won't work in Finland. Nobody isn't care about random russian hockey clubs. Even SaiPa is interesting team than Kazan.
There seems to be a rampant misconception that Finns would automatically flock out to watch the big stars no matter what. Finnish league doesn't even have an all-star anymore due to poor attendance, viewership and public reception. I think the last time it was held (only held a couple of times), sports news interviewed people leaving the game in the middle of it because it was "a joke" (no checking, no intensity etc.). Finns all also not sports crazy but success crazy. If their team is doing well, they'll go see it but if not, they'll stay home. Hence why becoming a bottom feeder in KHL is not in their plans.

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06-24-2012, 07:24 AM
  #210
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It is funny to follow some posters. They claim europe should be proud of history, so no pan-european league. On the other hand the same guys claim european football clubs should adopt NA model of league (salary caps etc). This football model is european heritage.. it is Europe to have a few top clubs in league and rest which are weaker.

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06-24-2012, 07:39 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post


EBEL is not a closed league really. The Champion of the Austrian Second Tier League is qualified for promotion into the EBEL - but they usually pass on that chance because they don't have enough money for a competitive roster.


.
EBEL is closed league. There is no classic promotion-relegation system like in Sweden. If you want to join EBEL you have to have some conditions to justify, particularly that you gonna have budget deep enough to ice competetive team. Slovenian club Jesenice were ejected from EBEL (with possibility of return) because they are in deep financial ***** and when they fix it they can return to EBEL. Jesenice were first non-austrian team to join the league. So, EBEL is closed league

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06-24-2012, 07:46 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
It is funny to follow some posters. They claim europe should be proud of history, so no pan-european league. On the other hand the same guys claim european football clubs should adopt NA model of league (salary caps etc). This football model is european heritage.. it is Europe to have a few top clubs in league and rest which are weaker.
exactly. Just imagine Premier League where you couldnt legitimately expect teams like Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea etc. leading the pack

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06-24-2012, 07:54 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
It is funny to follow some posters. They claim europe should be proud of history, so no pan-european league. On the other hand the same guys claim european football clubs should adopt NA model of league (salary caps etc). This football model is european heritage.. it is Europe to have a few top clubs in league and rest which are weaker.
Although I don't agree with a majority of your posts in this thread, I somewhat agree with you on this. Allthough in my oppinion, parity is great for sport and competition, the NA way of doing it is ridicilous. I hate the artificial parity NFL and NHL has (salary cap, draft, revenue sharing). It's a joke. I mean you should have an even playingfield to some extent, for an example TV money distributed evenly to every team in the league (unlike in La liga for some time when only Real and Barca got a slice thus widening the gap between them and the poorer teams even more). However, local revenues and marketing is only the business of that particular team and if some teams do it better and earn money, well that's good for them. You earn your position among the top tier. If your team or city isn't good/interresting enough, tough luck son. If your team isn't playing in the top tier, you have to accept it and hope you and your team can maybe play there in the future. I'm not a rich man atm either, but then I should try to improve my situation, and if I can't, well that's how it is then.

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06-24-2012, 08:27 AM
  #214
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Although I don't agree with a majority of your posts in this thread, I somewhat agree with you on this. Allthough in my oppinion, parity is great for sport and competition, the NA way of doing it is ridicilous. I hate the artificial parity NFL and NHL has (salary cap, draft, revenue sharing). It's a joke. I mean you should have an even playingfield to some extent, for an example TV money distributed evenly to every team in the league (unlike in La liga for some time when only Real and Barca got a slice thus widening the gap between them and the poorer teams even more). However, local revenues and marketing is only the business of that particular team and if some teams do it better and earn money, well that's good for them. You earn your position among the top tier. If your team or city isn't good/interresting enough, tough luck son. If your team isn't playing in the top tier, you have to accept it and hope you and your team can maybe play there in the future. I'm not a rich man atm either, but then I should try to improve my situation, and if I can't, well that's how it is then.
agree. This is an ideal start situation to create brand new club for KHL. And change it a bit more.

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06-24-2012, 10:08 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by LOFIN View Post
Although I don't agree with a majority of your posts in this thread, I somewhat agree with you on this. Allthough in my oppinion, parity is great for sport and competition, the NA way of doing it is ridicilous. I hate the artificial parity NFL and NHL has (salary cap, draft, revenue sharing). It's a joke. I mean you should have an even playingfield to some extent, for an example TV money distributed evenly to every team in the league (unlike in La liga for some time when only Real and Barca got a slice thus widening the gap between them and the poorer teams even more). However, local revenues and marketing is only the business of that particular team and if some teams do it better and earn money, well that's good for them. You earn your position among the top tier. If your team or city isn't good/interresting enough, tough luck son. If your team isn't playing in the top tier, you have to accept it and hope you and your team can maybe play there in the future. I'm not a rich man atm either, but then I should try to improve my situation, and if I can't, well that's how it is then.
Well the North American sports market isn't entirely comparable with the European football market. In European football there's competition from multiple leagues for players, driving up their prices where as in NA there's basically the big market cities, like New York, LA, Boston, Philly, Toronto(in hockey). So parity is more needed in NA due to it's business/profit orientated franchise structure. In Europe it's isn't that required however the current situation is far less ideal too when relegation/promotion can be decided by financial situations instead of performances on the pitch.

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06-24-2012, 11:19 AM
  #216
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There seems to be a rampant misconception that Finns would automatically flock out to watch the big stars no matter what. Finnish league doesn't even have an all-star anymore due to poor attendance, viewership and public reception. I think the last time it was held (only held a couple of times), sports news interviewed people leaving the game in the middle of it because it was "a joke" (no checking, no intensity etc.). Finns all also not sports crazy but success crazy. If their team is doing well, they'll go see it but if not, they'll stay home. Hence why becoming a bottom feeder in KHL is not in their plans.
If Finnish support is predicated on success (moreso an an innate interest in the game), wouldn't that mean a successful KHL franchise would draw fan interest?

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06-24-2012, 12:25 PM
  #217
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If Finnish support is predicated on success (moreso an an innate interest in the game), wouldn't that mean a successful KHL franchise would draw fan interest?
Propably, yes. However people who are really passionate about their hockey(and there are many of us in Finland) would propably still stick with their SM-liiga teams. However many casual hockey viewers and gloryhunters would propably hop in the KHL team bandwagon .

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06-24-2012, 12:57 PM
  #218
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Propably, yes. However people who are really passionate about their hockey(and there are many of us in Finland) would propably still stick with their SM-liiga teams. However many casual hockey viewers and gloryhunters would propably hop in the KHL team bandwagon .
totally agree. The same I expect in Prague.

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06-24-2012, 01:11 PM
  #219
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Propably, yes. However people who are really passionate about their hockey(and there are many of us in Finland) would propably still stick with their SM-liiga teams. However many casual hockey viewers and gloryhunters would propably hop in the KHL team bandwagon .
clubs have to lure more and more fans if they want to be successfull. People who really care about hockey and local club are great, but it is a small group of people. Have many these fans does your club have? over 2000? more? Even 10 000 such fans is not enough. Clubs need to attract new fans and they are not succesfull while playing domestic leagues (I can say about Slovakia). Look at Slova, club will have fans from people who supported club in past AND new fans from region (who are not so hockey crazy) and maybe whole Slovakia (who likes hockey, good hockey). These new groups of fans would not support Slovan if playing domestic league.

Who is true fan according to your oppinion? I think it is a person who will ALLWAYS support local club. Who will support the club if playing domestic league or international league. Allways, that is true fan not a person who wont support the club if playing international league. Look, true fan of Slovan supported club when playing czecho-slovak 2nd tier, czecho-slovak elite league, slovak league and KHL as well. Allways. A person, who has supported Slovan for decades, stop supporting Slvoan today (because KHL) is not true fan of Slovan for me. Maybe you have another definition of true fan

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06-24-2012, 01:16 PM
  #220
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Propably, yes. However people who are really passionate about their hockey(and there are many of us in Finland) would propably still stick with their SM-liiga teams. However many casual hockey viewers and gloryhunters would propably hop in the KHL team bandwagon .
Whilst they are glory hunters and lord knows there are many in every sport, you have to ask can we afford to loose those fans? The money those fans bring in is the same money the die hards bring in when all is said and done.

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06-24-2012, 03:17 PM
  #221
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why is it assumed that bandwagoners will watch the KHL teams and the "real fans" will watch the minor/national league hockey?

If I can use my Ontario example again - real football fans watch the NFL here (in Toronto). If Toronto got an NFL team nobody would care about the CFL one iota. Who cares about bush-league national leagues?

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06-24-2012, 03:47 PM
  #222
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EBEL is closed league. There is no classic promotion-relegation system like in Sweden. If you want to join EBEL you have to have some conditions to justify, particularly that you gonna have budget deep enough to ice competetive team. Slovenian club Jesenice were ejected from EBEL (with possibility of return) because they are in deep financial ***** and when they fix it they can return to EBEL. Jesenice were first non-austrian team to join the league. So, EBEL is closed league
Conditions are in place in many open leagues. In Football for example, the German Bundesliga, the Austrian League and many others have financial guidelines that clubs need to fulfill. If a club fails to meed the guidelines, it can loses its accreditation. Still they're not closed leagues. Same with EBEL.

There is a promotion system in the EBEL: The champion of the austrian second tier is qualified for promotion. Not so in closed leagues like the NHL or KHL.

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06-24-2012, 03:48 PM
  #223
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why is it assumed that bandwagoners will watch the KHL teams and the "real fans" will watch the minor/national league hockey?

If I can use my Ontario example again - real football fans watch the NFL here (in Toronto). If Toronto got an NFL team nobody would care about the CFL one iota. Who cares about bush-league national leagues?
Isn't better to compare it with CHL,USHL fans in NA?

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06-24-2012, 03:48 PM
  #224
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I mean to say there are no investors to finance a KHL team in your town is ridiculous. Moscow has 79 billionaires alone. The other thing that people don't understand is our many unwritten rules of being a billionaire in Russia. The financing of these sports clubs is a form of penance for Russian billionaires. Penance for all the **** they have done to get to where they are. They don't get to "get bored". Abramovich for example spent 1 to 2 BILLION of his own money as the governor of Chukotka on improving local infrastructure. He was "asked" to be governor of Chukotka, aka told. When he wanted to only stay on for only one term it was denied and he served two terms.

Won't you help a poor Russia billionaire pay his penance by letting him pump millions and millions into your hockey infrastructure?

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06-24-2012, 04:28 PM
  #225
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Except you guys can. Join the KHL and your players will stay put.

All this talk about rivalries is a bunch of nonsense. All it would take is Artyukhin to board or fight one of the players on your local KHL team and trust me the rivalry will be on.

Or have Vityaz visit. Instant rivalry. Vityaz's rivalry with Omsk is one of the most heated if not the most heated in hockey and how old is that? 3 years?
You mistake "feud" with "rivalry".

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