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2012 NHL Entry Draft - Rounds 2-7 - 10am EST (NHL Network) - Part 5

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Old
06-24-2012, 02:44 PM
  #876
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Call me a major homer but in such a defense friendly draft - are guys like Pouliot and Lindholm really better prospects than Beaulieu? It just amazes me that Pouliot would be picked ahead of Forsberg, Teravainen and Grigorenko some of the few guys with first line winger potential in Collberg and Aberg would drop to the second round.
This might sound weird... But I never liked Derek Pouliot, just because of the family name.. Its weird, a sort of pre-conception in my head staying there telling me Pouliot will end uup like the other one. No idea why, I can't get it out of there...

As for Lindholm, No idea, was a reach as per McKenzie & McGuire. Did anyone watch Cabbie's feature with the drafties? He gets Lindholm to call Ryan Getzlaf, and Lindholm is completly clueless

Also on that feature, nice segment with PK 'Alex is living with me, no rules for him'

http://watch.tsn.ca/featured/#clip707583

Enjoy it. Funny as hell IMO

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06-24-2012, 02:48 PM
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Easy, Grant. No need to get so defensive. No one's saying we're better than the scouts.. (well maybe certain Blue Jackets scouts ).

Curious about what you know about Fox. I suspect there's a relation to why he was traded off London...

Also Tornqvist seemed like a logical late round pick that never happened . Thoughts?

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06-24-2012, 02:56 PM
  #878
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Originally Posted by LaurentHabs View Post
This might sound weird... But I never liked Derek Pouliot, just because of the family name.. Its weird, a sort of pre-conception in my head staying there telling me Pouliot will end uup like the other one. No idea why, I can't get it out of there...

As for Lindholm, No idea, was a reach as per McKenzie & McGuire. Did anyone watch Cabbie's feature with the drafties? He gets Lindholm to call Ryan Getzlaf, and Lindholm is completly clueless

Also on that feature, nice segment with PK 'Alex is living with me, no rules for him'

http://watch.tsn.ca/featured/#clip707583

Enjoy it. Funny as hell IMO
Cabbie is great, was so awkward with Lindholm. Subban and Gally already have great chemistry.

Regarding Lindholm...well, the Swedes I talked to are amazed he was drafted ahead of Forsberg and Collberg, he wasn't very hyped up over there. I like him as a prospect, two way, a fitness freak with three lungs, but he doesn't do anything great right now. He has the size and work ethic though. Good prospect but I don't see him better than Trouba and Dumba.

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06-24-2012, 02:58 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Call me a major homer but in such a defense friendly draft - are guys like Pouliot and Lindholm really better prospects than Beaulieu? It just amazes me that Pouliot would be picked ahead of Forsberg, Teravainen and Grigorenko some of the few guys with first line winger potential in Collberg and Aberg would drop to the second round.
When The Pens traded Staal I thought they were going for Forsberg or Grigo. Forsberg would of made sense for both Malkin and Crosby having a young skilled winger and cheap for a few years. Grigo with some Malkin tutelage would of kept the Pens deepest at center position for a very long long time.

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06-24-2012, 03:06 PM
  #880
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Makes lots of sense actually. If you knew what the scouts knew about Fox you wouldn't have picked him either..and last time i checked Slepyshev was a Russian that plays in Russia He doesn't come across as the type of guy that's going to commit to playing in NA..so why waste a draft pick? Gudbranson.....don't know of a single scout who wanted to draft him.That's why these guys are paid the big bucks...they have info you don't have, or see things that you missed.

There are tangible reasons why several kids who were hyped on here all year weren't picked..guys like those just mentioned, the highly overrated Emil Lundberg (some thought he was a third round pick), Nathan Walker, and so on. This process is supposed to humble the backseat scout a bit..unfortunately what often happens is that the backseat scout takes the opposite approach, and starts proclaiming that the NHL scouts screwed up. I think you'll find that five years from now guys you liked who weren't drafted are nowhere near the NHL, with the very odd exception.
Wow defensive much?

As of January, there had been 130 undrafted players who had played for an NHL team in the 2012 season.

How come these brilliant scouts who have so much information and see so much missed 130 guys who would eventually make the NHL? And I am only talking in half a season.

Give me a break. Scouts are human, they make mistakes, a lot of them in fact. And we are allowed to express an opinion .. years from now our opinions are validated or made fun of, just like everybody else, including the scouts.

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06-24-2012, 03:12 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Call me a major homer but in such a defense friendly draft - are guys like Pouliot and Lindholm really better prospects than Beaulieu? It just amazes me that Pouliot would be picked ahead of Forsberg, Teravainen and Grigorenko some of the few guys with first line winger potential in Collberg and Aberg would drop to the second round.
I think the Grigorenko drop for intangibles probably hurt all the top forwards in the draft class. 8 Top-10 Ds is unprecedented.

For example, I watched a bunch of Kadri and Grigorenko in their draft year and it's clear to me Grigorenko was head and shoulders over Kadri hockey-wise and skill-wise... Was this draft class so superior that a Grigorenko drops out of the Top-10? No.


So on the one hand you have Grigorenko, who gets a **** storm coming over his head and undermined in the mind of scouts. On the other hand, he still compares favorably to the Forward comparables like Teravainen, Collberg, Forsberg, Faksa, etc... Result: Ds start looking more attractive.

You end up with a situation where you're pimping all these different Ds to justify their spot in the Top-10. The most ready vs. the higher upside vs. the most physical vs. the biggest vs. the most mobile vs. the best shot vs. the best defensively vs. the best 2-way vs. the most versatile, etc...

I'm curious to see how this draft class turns out in 5 years. After all, NHL teams still ice 2 times more forwards every game.

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06-24-2012, 03:18 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
I think the Grigorenko drop for intangibles probably hurt all the top forwards in the draft class. 8 Top-10 Ds is unprecedented.

For example, I watched a bunch of Kadri and Grigorenko in their draft year and it's clear to me Grigorenko was head and shoulders over Kadri hockey-wise and skill-wise... Was this draft class so superior that a Grigorenko drops out of the Top-10? No.


So on the one hand you have Grigorenko, who gets a **** storm coming over his head and undermined in the mind of scouts. On the other hand, he still compares favorably to the Forward comparables like Teravainen, Collberg, Forsberg, Faksa, etc... Result: Ds start looking more attractive.

You end up with a situation where you're pimping all these different Ds to justify their spot in the Top-10. The most ready vs. the higher upside vs. the most physical vs. the biggest vs. the most mobile vs. the best shot vs. the best defensively vs. the best 2-way vs. the most versatile, etc...

I'm curious to see how this draft class turns out in 5 years. After all, NHL teams still ice 2 times more forwards every game.
Well that sounds like a stretch to me (Taking a middling defender prospect because everyone wanted Grigorenko to drop?), but it is one reason I love what Timmins did here, going against the grain and getting skill guys while everyone was obsessed with defenders and size. I know the usual suspects will cry we only got one guy with a lengthy fight card, but we got some steals.

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06-24-2012, 03:43 PM
  #883
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Well that sounds like a stretch to me (Taking a middling defender prospect because everyone wanted Grigorenko to drop?),.
Just to be clear: I don't think anyone wanted Grigorenko to drop. He just happened to drop because some character issues were brought up.

I'm just saying some middling defensemen started looking more attractive after the top of the forward class (minus Galchenyuk and Yakupov) took a hit.

For example, if a few teams had Teravainen in their Top-5 (what I heard), and he ends up 18, either those teams made egregious scouting mistakes or some teams misevaluated the Ds (what I think). All those teams had a pair of Ds they really liked (but those 2 Ds were different from team to team). Everyone can't be right.


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06-24-2012, 04:00 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by Grant McCagg View Post
Makes lots of sense actually. If you knew what the scouts knew about Fox you wouldn't have picked him either..and last time i checked Slepyshev was a Russian that plays in Russia He doesn't come across as the type of guy that's going to commit to playing in NA..so why waste a draft pick? Gudbranson.....don't know of a single scout who wanted to draft him.That's why these guys are paid the big bucks...they have info you don't have, or see things that you missed.

There are tangible reasons why several kids who were hyped on here all year weren't picked..guys like those just mentioned, the highly overrated Emil Lundberg (some thought he was a third round pick), Nathan Walker, and so on. This process is supposed to humble the backseat scout a bit..unfortunately what often happens is that the backseat scout takes the opposite approach, and starts proclaiming that the NHL scouts screwed up. I think you'll find that five years from now guys you liked who weren't drafted are nowhere near the NHL, with the very odd exception.
Wow...great response. You do know that I, an idiot armchair scout who don't know anything, work with things I know. So instead of coming here with that great attitude, could have just come, since you know a whole lot, and enlighten us with the reasons why they weren't picked. You do realize that some posts could have been just a way in getting a response from you, for example, like people who do have inside infos, and shed the light as the reasons why things happen like it did.

Not sure what your problem is, if you'd solely allowed posts from guys that work as scouts to post in draft thread, there would be you.....and only you. I guess that's the only way you'd fine some worthy posts in there.....Geez....Those great answers about pros know what they're doing so amateurs just shut up.....If true, nobody could ever say a word about GM's....coaches and players....'cause everyboyd is paid the big bucks while we are just stupid armchair people....Expected a better answer from you but hey that's my problem....

And then, surely guys I liked, with the infos I have, will most likely never make it. Somehow, even pros sees a ton of their players way better than they eventually be doing. Even pros do that. I guess that as backseat scout, I'm also allowed to make a few mistakes....

For the record, CSS had Slepyshev as their top 10 Euro player. OF COURSE, it doesn't mean that teams will pick him top 10 euro 'cause there is that KHL factor and so on...as if I didn't know that. But a Russian that plays in Russia....well that didn't stop Kuznetsov or Tarasenko to be pick in the first round. Did the KHL factor improved immensely with years. I guess it did, which makes Slepyshev CLEARLY not a 1st round pick. But since you keep those Russians rights a whole lot of years...why not make him a pick instead of using on guys who wouldn't make it anyway based on history of the 6th or 7th round? Is his talent not worthy to do that? And by the way, my question of "why not use a 7th rounder, was directed at Slepyshev. I really did ask a question about Fox and Gudbranson. While you did notice I didn't ask a question about Iafrate 'cause me too I wouldn't have picked him even in the 7th round.


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06-24-2012, 04:07 PM
  #885
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Just to be clear: I don't think anyone wanted Grigorenko to drop. He just happened to drop because some character issues were brought up.

I'm just saying some middling defensemen started looking more attractive after the top of the forward class (minus Galchenyuk and Yakupov) took a hit.

For example, if a few teams had Teravainen in their Top-5 (what I heard), and he ends up 18, either those teams made egregious scouting mistakes or some teams misevaluated the Ds (what I think). All those teams had a pair of Ds they really liked (but those 2 Ds were different from team to team). Everyone can't be right.
I agree with that - my completely hollow theory is that a lot of clubs went all in scouting defensemen, assuming that the drafts few high end forwards were going to be overvalued, and as a result teams each had their own pet defender without as much research done on forwards.

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06-24-2012, 04:09 PM
  #886
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Wow...great response. You do know that I, an idiot armchair scout who don't know anything, work with things I know. So instead of coming here with that great attitude, could have just come, since you know a whole lot, and enlighten us with the reasons why they weren't picked. You do realize that some posts could have been just a way in getting a response from you, for example, like people who do have inside infos, and shed the light as the reasons why things happen like it did.

Not sure what your problem is, if you'd solely allowed posts from guys that work as scouts to post in draft thread, there would be you.....and only you. I guess that's the only way you'd fine some worthy posts in there.....Geez....Those great answers about pros know what they're doing so amateurs just shut up.....If true, nobody could ever say a word about GM's....coaches and players....'cause everyboyd is paid the big bucks while we are just stupid armchair people....Expected a better answer from you but hey that's my problem....

And then, surely guys I liked, with the infos I have, will most likely never make it. Somehow, even pros sees a ton of their players way better than they eventually be doing. Even pros do that. I guess that as backseat scout, I'm also allowed to make a few mistakes....
There must be a back story here because I thought his post was quite civil and logical. I'm not sure why you took this so personal.

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06-24-2012, 04:16 PM
  #887
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There must be a back story here because I thought his post was quite civil and logical. I'm not sure why you took this so personal.
Well, I know during the Mock Draft I rubbed Grant the wrong way when I said I didnt like Matt Murray at all. He criticized my Lundberg pick (which is what he referenced in this post). He was right about Lundberg. But, I maintain I will be right about Matt Murray. I have work to do as an arm chair scout in identifying the right qualities in forwards and D, but as a goalie myself, I believe I am really good at identifying goalies with pro potential.

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06-24-2012, 04:17 PM
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There must be a back story here because I thought his post was quite civil and logical. I'm not sure why you took this so personal.
Yeah...I was quite along in thinking so...just read HomaridII post....All those backseat scouts liners and who are paid the big bucks and who has infos I don't have....Do I really need to be reminded that scouts have infos I don't? No back story on my part. Cleary he has one with me though.

Not sure who's taking it personal....I unfortunately wonder some guys aren't picked, I'm being told that I don't know anything and that this scout fraternity knows best. He's clearly in protect mode. So he's taking it personal.

Of course they know more than I do because of infos they have. No kidding. Thanks for the reminder. But it shouldn't be at that expense of wondering, with what I know why this or that guy wasn't picked. So I ask a question, just answer the question with infos you have. That's all. No need to respond about who knows more. And pros knows best. 'Cause pros makes mistakes. And like Homarid said, tons of undrafted players ended up playing in this league.


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06-24-2012, 04:18 PM
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There must be a back story here because I thought his post was quite civil and logical. I'm not sure why you took this so personal.
I also do not think Grant post was meant to be offensive.. just a little reality check for us armchair scout

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06-24-2012, 04:27 PM
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Central scouting services had Gudbranson 160. And those guys know more than me. It doesn't change the fact that guys that are around Gudbranson were picked and even after him like the scrabble kid that Boston picked up in Grzelcyk at 177 or you could go as far as Nanne at 188...though you could suspect Minny picked him for the obvious reasons...but he was picked anyway.

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06-24-2012, 04:29 PM
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I also do not think Grant post was meant to be offensive.. just a little reality check for us armchair scout
But what reality check? That we don't know as much? No ****. We know that already. But if a forum would be solely based on "Well, they know what they're doing", you wouldn't be posting in it. And again, if it counts for scouts, it counts for GM's....for coaches...for players....they are way more pros than we are. And are also paid the big bucks for what they're doing. I'm just tired to hear those explanations.

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06-24-2012, 04:41 PM
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I don't take offense to grant's post at all, I value his posts, so hopefully he'll continue, but it did seem a bit smug.

I value whitesnake's take on potential draftees as he follows it much closer than I do. I know he's not a pro, but I value his input anyways.

Instead of answering with you don't know as much as me, or there's a reason why I'm on the inside and you're not type of responses, I would rather hear grant break down the player in questions abilities, not the posters.

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06-24-2012, 04:42 PM
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I don't take offense to grant's post at all, I value his posts, so hopefully he'll continue, but it did seem a bit smug.

I value whitesnake's take on potential draftees as he follows it much closer than I do. I know he's not a pro, but I value his input anyways.

Instead of answering with you don't know as much as me, or there's a reason why I'm on the inside and you're not type of responses, I would rather hear grant break down the player in questions abilities, not the posters.
Exactly. Thank you. Very rational post.

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06-24-2012, 04:47 PM
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I don't take offense to grant's post at all, I value his posts, so hopefully he'll continue, but it did seem a bit smug.

I value whitesnake's take on potential draftees as he follows it much closer than I do. I know he's not a pro, but I value his input anyways.

Instead of answering with you don't know as much as me, or there's a reason why I'm on the inside and you're not type of responses, I would rather hear grant break down the player in questions abilities, not the posters.
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Exactly. Thank you. Very rational post.
Grant is a VERY important poster to this board. Doesn't post often, but when he do his input is usually DEAD ON. Yet, I didn't like the tone and took offense from it. There is no need to be reminded who is paid the big bucks. And that they know things we don't. As if we didn't know that already. But I also know a couple of other things. There's quite a few people in here that might not have the contacts they need or might not have chosen that path but that would most likely do just as good a job as a whole lot of people in this hockey world. Not being paid for it or actually not working in it does not make people's post less knowledgeable. And when it does, because they are inside infos we don't have, well this is exactly WHEN you count on a guy like Grant to give us those infos so that "not making any sense" automatically becomes "making a whole lot of sense".

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06-24-2012, 04:54 PM
  #895
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Grant is a VERY important poster to this board. Doesn't post often, but when he do his input is usually DEAD ON. Yet, I didn't like the tone and took offense from it. There is no need to be reminded who is paid the big bucks. And that they know things we don't. As if we didn't know that already. But I also know a couple of other things. There's quite a few people in here that might not have the contacts they need or might not have chosen that path but that would most likely do just as good a job as a whole lot of people in this hockey world. Not being paid for it or actually not working in it does not make people's post less knowledgeable. And when it does, because they are inside infos we don't have, well this is exactly WHEN you count on a guy like Grant to give us those infos so that "not making any sense" automatically becomes "making a whole lot of sense".
I agree with everything here whitesnake. Maybe we took his post the wrong way a bit. I hope that everyone who follows the prospects closely continues to give their input whether they are paid to do it or not and I hope Grant continues to post here as well.

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06-24-2012, 05:08 PM
  #896
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I've been following the draft prospect thanks to hf for the whole year (and have been doing this for many years) and I've just come back from a little camping trip organized for la St-Jean.

How the hell did we end up with Collberg, Thrower and Bozon ? THIS BLOWS MY MIND AT THE SAME TIME AS I'M ******* IN MY PANTS.

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06-24-2012, 06:05 PM
  #897
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How did Dane Fox and Alex Gudbranson go undrafted? And even Slepyshev even if you think that the guy won't be here for the next 3 years.....Makes no sense to me. Pick him in the 7th round....
I'm guessing that teams all had lists of players that they liked more than these guys. This may be a stupid question but is there a reason why Montreal (or any other team) can not invited these undrafted players to our prospect camp for further evaluation, and depending on performance, sign them up as free agents?

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06-24-2012, 06:14 PM
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Tim Murray said that the canadiens was one of the two teams that called him for their 7th round pick: http://video.senators.nhl.com/videoc...1304&id=182748
Guess there was a player they wanted in that last round .. Maybe a goalie?

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06-24-2012, 06:18 PM
  #899
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I'm guessing that teams all had lists of players that they liked more than these guys. This may be a stupid question but is there a reason why Montreal (or any other team) can not invited these undrafted players to our prospect camp for further evaluation, and depending on performance, sign them up as free agents?
Don't think there's any reason. I mean, like I said somewhere else, Machovsky was brought in for evaluation by the Sens last year, and was still draft eligible this year, afaik.

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06-24-2012, 06:25 PM
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Tim Murray said that the canadiens was one of the two teams that called him for their 7th round pick: http://video.senators.nhl.com/videoc...1304&id=182748
Guess there was a player they wanted in that last round .. Maybe a goalie?
Would have been great to have taken a chance on Makarov there.

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