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Old
06-24-2012, 04:05 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
Uhhh...why not? We're clearly not judging the results on their own, we're discussing Shero himself and like I said, the merits of his management skills. I thought my post was pretty clear. You don't just blindly ignore the context and events surrounding the whole thing. That's just willful ignorance.

It's even crazier that it was brought up when comparing Shero to Holland (or any GM of any other team). Shero had to do that. We don't have a player who turned down a 10 year offer to play with his brothers. And if we did and our guy was worth it, we'd get that deal too.

Bring up other deals, because this one is pretty much one of those deals where the hardest part was finding a pen to sign it with.
who isnt judging the results on their own?

when discussing Shero or Holland, the only thing that should be discussed is/are the results and nothing else.

why does it matter the reason behind a trade? does it somehow lessen the significance of the return? where do you draw the line? all it is and sounds like is sour grapes "well you know he had no choice but to trade staal to carolina so who cares that he did a great job both for today and the future, cause well you know it was spoonfed to him.."

as far as other deals, well, when the neal deal was brought up some morons said the only reason that one happened was becasue the dallas GM was a nitwit, so again "well you know a monkey could have made that deal"

it sure seems their is an excuse for everything

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06-24-2012, 04:08 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Well seeing as there hasn't been a single game played since the trade happened, shouldn't we wait to heap praise or criticism on Shero?

For all we know Pittsburgh could be shut out in free agency and Carolina could pass them in the standings.
again man the value of the trade was this and only this
- he traded staal(a great player) for Sutter(a good young player who is highly regarded) AND the 8th overall pick(and got a top dman prospect) which bodes well for the pens future
-AND in doing so freed up cap space that can be either used to sign a parise/semin or simply used to retain his own elite superstars(crosby, malkin, letang)

its a win-win no matter which way you look at it

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06-24-2012, 04:12 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by fimoknete View Post
every gm > holland
That's not true and you know it.

I don't know why it is you hate this team so much, but you're looking for the Kings forum, I believe.

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06-24-2012, 04:13 PM
  #54
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I still don't know what people are arguing about.

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06-24-2012, 04:13 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Booyah! View Post
You're missing my point. What I am saying is that Shero has been aggressive leading up to free agency to put his team in a position to be able to add 2 premiere free agents. I can't imagine Holland being as aggressive to put himself in a position to do the same thing. Shero is being proactive and aggressive, that is why he's getting the kudos.
Holland didn't need to be proactive and free cap space - he already has it.

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06-24-2012, 04:27 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
Holland didn't need to be proactive and free cap space - he already has it.
Some would point out that was proactive. He has had his eyes towards these next two UFA classes 2012 and 2013, he said as much when he passed on some of the ridiculous contracts being passed out on players last year.

He has loaded the farm system to a level we haven't since the early 90's and got tons of cap space while doing it to hopefully pursue players to bridge the gap from Z and Datsyuk to Jurco and Nyquist. Seems to me there is a plan, whether or not some of you like it is a different story.

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06-24-2012, 04:27 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
who isnt judging the results on their own?
People in this topic.

Quote:
when discussing Shero or Holland, the only thing that should be discussed is/are the results and nothing else.
How convenient. Reminds of me when people said whatshisnuts was an amazing GM when Roy signed in Colorado. Some deals are so obvious all you have to do is show up with a pen and paper.

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why does it matter the reason behind a trade?
Seriously? You really don't understand? When discussing a deal, if the deal was as obvious and expected as the sunrise, we shouldn't hand out gold stars. That's why I said you'd may as well bring up some other deals.

I dunno if you committed to the "Shero is awesome" position somewhere20 or 30 posts up there, but you seem to really have an agenda.

I dunno how you can come to a "sour grapes" conclusion either. I'm not comparing them for one, and second that's exactly how it went down. And besides, from what I've read, Carolina was extremely aggressive about the deal. When compared with Shero, who didn't even want to do this thing you're praising him for, for all we know it's more likely Carolina tossed this up and Shero took the first offer he was given. You don't know he didn't but you'll act like this is some thing we should worship him for.

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as far as other deals, well, when the neal deal was brought up some morons said the only reason that one happened was becasue the dallas GM was a nitwit, so again "well you know a monkey could have made that deal"

it sure seems their is an excuse for everything
I didn't say that. I will say that the deal had some details to it, likely being that Dallas knew they couldn't resign him. It's not 100% Shero is awesome but it was a good deal.

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06-24-2012, 04:29 PM
  #58
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Don't understand why people are comparing Shero to Holland. This thread should just be used to discuss Pittsburgh being a legitimate threat to acquire Suter or Parise on July 1st, because they now are.

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06-24-2012, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
who isnt judging the results on their own?

when discussing Shero or Holland, the only thing that should be discussed is/are the results and nothing else.

why does it matter the reason behind a trade? does it somehow lessen the significance of the return? where do you draw the line? all it is and sounds like is sour grapes "well you know he had no choice but to trade staal to carolina so who cares that he did a great job both for today and the future, cause well you know it was spoonfed to him.."

as far as other deals, well, when the neal deal was brought up some morons said the only reason that one happened was becasue the dallas GM was a nitwit, so again "well you know a monkey could have made that deal"

it sure seems their is an excuse for everything
I guess I am your nitwit, but I can't see how you could argue that was a good trade from Dallas' perspective. It was pointed out Dallas was cash strapped, but I don't think Joe N got enough for Ribeiro the other night either.

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06-24-2012, 04:33 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
again man the value of the trade was this and only this
- he traded staal(a great player) for Sutter(a good young player who is highly regarded) AND the 8th overall pick(and got a top dman prospect) which bodes well for the pens future
-AND in doing so freed up cap space that can be either used to sign a parise/semin or simply used to retain his own elite superstars(crosby, malkin, letang)

its a win-win no matter which way you look at it
Using that method of evaluating trades, no team ever makes a bad one.

Carolina can argue they traded a 3rd line center and a draft pick that is as likely to bust as be a part of Pittsburgh's future for a 1st line player and they still have enough cap space to attract big name FA's. (Even more than Pittsburgh)

The trade will be evaluated by how well the teams do over the next season(s), not based on opinions of which team got the better return.

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06-24-2012, 04:35 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
People in this topic.


How convenient. Reminds of me when people said whatshisnuts was an amazing GM when Roy signed in Colorado. Some deals are so obvious all you have to do is show up with a pen and paper.


Seriously? You really don't understand? When discussing a deal, if the deal was as obvious and expected as the sunrise, we shouldn't hand out gold stars. That's why I said you'd may as well bring up some other deals.

I dunno if you committed to the "Shero is awesome" position somewhere20 or 30 posts up there, but you seem to really have an agenda.

I dunno how you can come to a "sour grapes" conclusion either. That's exactly how it went down.


I didn't say that. I will say that the deal had some details to it, likely being that Dallas knew they couldn't resign him. It's not 100% Shero is awesome but it was a good deal.
i am sorry, are you saying that Rutherford walked into Sheros office and said dammit Shero I wont take no for an answer, we are giving you our top prospect and the 8th overall pick for a player who "everyone" knows only wants to play in carolina and who is a UFA in 12 months because, well, i am just such a nice guy? Phew, I sure hope someone is as nice to Howson..

May I ask, do you believe Holland is brillant becasue he has set himself up with so much cap space? If somebody told you the only reason why that was/is solely because he hasent drafted or attracted enough talent to use that up in the first place, would that dampen the fact that nonetheless he has 25 million in cap space? Does it change the result? give me a break


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06-24-2012, 04:40 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Using that method of evaluating trades, no team ever makes a bad one.

Carolina can argue they traded a 3rd line center and a draft pick that is as likely to bust as be a part of Pittsburgh's future for a 1st line player and they still have enough cap space to attract big name FA's. (Even more than Pittsburgh)

The trade will be evaluated by how well the teams do over the next season(s), not based on opinions of which team got the better return.
no not so, their are trades that are bad

the trade will be evaluated on several things least of which is how well they do next season alone

again if trading Staal does nothing less but allow Shero to retain Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and MAF thenthat alone is good enough

man if it were Holland who traded Filppula for a teams top prospect, a player regarded by many to be in the same mold as Filppula plus got a top 8 prospect plus put himself in a much better position to either A) sign the top free agent forward in that summers draft class or B) sign another top free agent AND retain a Crosby, Malkin, Letang what would you say about Holland?

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06-24-2012, 04:41 PM
  #63
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That would be quite stupid for Pitt.... their problem isn't scoring goals. The issue was defensively and the fact MAF was an absolute sieve at the end of the season.

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06-24-2012, 04:44 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Using that method of evaluating trades, no team ever makes a bad one.

Carolina can argue they traded a 3rd line center and a draft pick that is as likely to bust as be a part of Pittsburgh's future for a 1st line player and they still have enough cap space to attract big name FA's. (Even more than Pittsburgh)

The trade will be evaluated by how well the teams do over the next season(s), not based on opinions of which team got the better return.
This is what people don't understand. Prospects bust. HFBoards goes nuts over draft picks, and half of the time (or more) those draft picks don't amount to jack diddly.

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06-24-2012, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
This is what people don't understand. Prospects bust. HFBoards goes nuts over draft picks, and half of the time (or more) those draft picks don't amount to jack diddly.
ok, and if Shero uses the cap space to retain two of the three best players in the NHL what then.

what happens if that was his only goal and getting Suter and the 8th were icing on the cake

its the whole trade that needs to be looked at, not just current Jordan Staal for two prospects

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06-24-2012, 04:50 PM
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Pittsburgh has a much younger and more dynamic core than we do. They could end up with some hellish Hawk-like long-term cap issues by doing this, but that may not stop them from trying.

I don't think they're after both guys, personally. They won't want to risk losing Crosby, Letang, Fleury, etc in a year or two.

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06-24-2012, 04:54 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
no not so, their are trades that are bad

the trade will be evaluated on several things least of which is how well they do next season alone

again if trading Staal does nothing less but allow Shero to retain Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and MAF thenthat alone is good enough

man if it were Holland who traded Filppula for a teams top prospect, a player regarded by many to be in the same mold as Filppula plus got a top 8 prospect plus put himself in a much better position to either A) sign the top free agent forward in that summers draft class or B) sign another top free agent AND retain a Crosby, Malkin, Letang what would you say about Holland?
I would be optimistic, but its a moot point since Detroit doesn't need to move players to open salary room as our GM has correctly avoided signing players to bad contracts and using up our available cap.

Either way though I wouldn't evaluate a trade until I see how they fit into the team, and the effect they have on the teams results.
I think Pittsburgh got the better of the deal, but until we see how the 2 teams progress all we're doing is guessing.


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06-24-2012, 05:02 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
ok, and if Shero uses the cap space to retain two of the three best players in the NHL what then.

what happens if that was his only goal and getting Suter and the 8th were icing on the cake

its the whole trade that needs to be looked at, not just current Jordan Staal for two prospects
One can just as easily argue that if Shero had managed the cap effectively he wouldn't need to trade his 3rd best player and #1 prospect to free up room to sign his top 2 players.

If his only goal was to free up room for Crosby and Malkin he wouldn't have offered him a 10 year contract the day before, he would have played him for his last season and let him go during the offseason.

Personally I don't think the trade had anything to do with money, I think both teams thought they got good value for what they gave up. All I'm saying is that its too early to say if either team made a great trade. Lets see how things work out on the ice before evaluating the deal.

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06-24-2012, 05:24 PM
  #69
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You guys know there were 3 pieces that went to Pitt right? Brian Dumoulin was the best defenseman on the best college team in the NCAA. He is pretty much NHL ready as well. He is rated a 7.5B on HF, higher than any other Detroit prospect but B Smith. Just seems odd that no one is mentioning him as part of the trade when he was certainly a big part ... just less hype.

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06-24-2012, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
One can just as easily argue that if Shero had managed the cap effectively he wouldn't need to trade his 3rd best player and #1 prospect to free up room to sign his top 2 players.

If his only goal was to free up room for Crosby and Malkin he wouldn't have offered him a 10 year contract the day before, he would have played him for his last season and let him go during the offseason.

Personally I don't think the trade had anything to do with money, I think both teams thought they got good value for what they gave up. All I'm saying is that its too early to say if either team made a great trade. Lets see how things work out on the ice before evaluating the deal.
fair enough but to the exact same extent one could argue and i have heard fans of other teams and some hockey analsyts claim that the only reason detroit has this much cap space is simple, we simply dont or havent had any good young players who deserve to be paid much and thus use up that cap space for quite some time

is it effective cap mgmt that the Isles have so much cap space or is it a lack of top end talent deserving of big pay days?

MAF, Letang, Staal Crosby, Malkin are all Pens draft picks. It dosent matter why they got those picks anymore but they all have and or do deserve to be paid and paid well. With a hard cap every GM who drafts/develops/trades for young top end talent will at somepoint run into a situation whereby he starts running out of dollars, its the brillant ones who can find away to move an asset, replace it with good cheap high end young players/prospects and save him enough money to retain the rest of his young top end talent which is exactly what Shero has done(and deserves the accolades for)

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06-24-2012, 06:06 PM
  #71
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You guys know there were 3 pieces that went to Pitt right? Brian Dumoulin was the best defenseman on the best college team in the NCAA. He is pretty much NHL ready as well. He is rated a 7.5B on HF, higher than any other Detroit prospect but B Smith. Just seems odd that no one is mentioning him as part of the trade when he was certainly a big part ... just less hype.
Yeah he was definitely a huge pick up for the Pens. But people here are freaking out about us talking about Pittsburgh and their GM. Supposedly this is a board for discussing hockey!

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06-24-2012, 06:27 PM
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I would think that it would be in Lou's best interest to trade Parise's rights to a team in the West if he will not be signed. Send him somewhere like Detroit, LA, Colorado, Minnesota or anyone else willing to throw money at him. For the NJD, it is best if Parise goes to the West. Especially if he stays in the East he could potentially be the player that turns a perennial contender into a SCF write in.

I'm not worried about the Penguins, because I don't think it will happen, but I do respect the fact that they can get a lot better which is a scary thought. If they sign Parise at $7+ per year though, how do they plan on fitting in Sutter, Orpik, Letang, Niskanen, etc. in a year or two? I doubt Letang settles for anything less that $7 million per.

Crosby, Malkin, Parise, Letang would take up about $32 million dollars in cap space. That would be half of the current cap, and about 1/3 if it raises to $70. Yes their top end talent would be incredible, but what about the rest of the team that would need to get paid? What if the cap goes down?

I don't think it's in their best interest to go on a free agent frenzy, but adding Parise is a scary thought.

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06-24-2012, 06:32 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
Holland didn't need to be proactive and free cap space - he already has it.
No kidding? Holland has the space based on fate, while Shero took Staal who everyone knew was going to Carolina, and got a top pick, Brandon Sutter and space to get a Parise or Suter if not both. Pretty shrewd moves. I believe that Suter will be a Red Wing on July 1st, but the Pens just became players and could land Parise when 2 days ago they couldn't sign Staal. If Holland had done something similar, you would be the lead baritone in the Holland is God chorus.

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06-24-2012, 06:35 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Booyah! View Post
No kidding? Holland has the space based on fate, while Shero took Staal who everyone knew was going to Carolina, and got a top pick, Brandon Sutter and space to get a Parise or Suter if not both. Pretty shrewd moves. I believe that Suter will be a Red Wing on July 1st, but the Pens just became players and could land Parise when 2 days ago they couldn't sign Staal. If Holland had done something similar, you would be the lead baritone in the Holland is God chorus.
"lead baritone in the Holland is god chorus"

now thats funny....

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06-24-2012, 06:46 PM
  #75
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My thought, when I first heard about this, was "no chance."
I figured Suter/Parise, if a package, want are, at least in part, bonded by their national team experience. No way they'd want to go play with Mr Canada in Pittsburgh.

But a Pittsburg beat writer on the radio said Crosby and Parise are good friends.

It occurs to me that while GMs can't negotiate before July 1, there's probably not much that can be done to prevent Sid Crosby from calling his friend.

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