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The Offseason Thread Part X: Bobby, we're better than Philly!

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Old
06-24-2012, 09:30 PM
  #26
Lundsanity30
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Originally Posted by NewYorkRangers89 View Post
It is too much to ask for, explain to me what gives him the right to play terrible when other stars play on crappy teams and they give it their all, please tell me. And everything is a hockey trade because it's hockey.......it is an unrealistic hockey trade when you ask for 21 year olds like Stepan who put up 51 points with no scoring help and a kid like Kreider who came in the playoffs and basically put the team on his back, you don't trade guys like that for a guy like Nash just because YOU think he is a star, 7.8 million doesn't make you a star.
I don't want to give up kreider or stepan because we can't afford to, but the value is fair. And even with Nash not caring he's still scoring 30 goals year in and year out. Yes 7.8 is a lot for 30 goals but I expect he would be in the 35-40 range here

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06-24-2012, 09:30 PM
  #27
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the answer doesn't lie in 15g scorers like Ponikarovsky and Stempniak or Boyes. I'd rather see them go after Semin who is a consistent goal scorer regardless if he doesn't fit the mold.

FA stinks. Over pay for 1 trick ponies like Gaustad? no way.

Sign Moen to replace Prust. Sign Semin. Go after Garrison if he doesn't resign in Florida. Package Dubinsky in a trade to upgrade.

imo this is or scenarios like it, are the only ways to improve without
major disruptions to the team.



Having one of Poni or Stemp in the top 6 will be an upgrade IMO. Maybe not a big one but maybe an upgrade that will show come playoff time. I also want Semin no matter what other people say about his game, he is still a goal scorer and will cost nothing but money. Moen sounds good and trading Dubinsky sounds a bit bad unless you are getting a top 6 guy back. Dubinsky had a bad season and i don't think you trade him just because he struggled a bit. Dubinsky-Richards-Gaborik is what i would like to see.

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06-24-2012, 09:30 PM
  #28
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Get Ryan!!!!

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06-24-2012, 09:30 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
I don't want to give up kreider or stepan because we can't afford to, but the value is fair. And even with Nash not caring he's still scoring 30 goals year in and year out. Yes 7.8 is a lot for 30 goals but I expect he would be in the 35-40 range here


Why do you think Nash will score 35-40 here?

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06-24-2012, 09:31 PM
  #30
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I think it'll be real interesting after Parise signs.

I'm not convinced Ryan is going anywhere until next year's deadline.

I think CBJ will either be forced to accept Sather's offer.

OR.

Nash will buckle and accept a trade to a team not on his list.

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06-24-2012, 09:32 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by NewYorkRangers89 View Post
Having one of Poni or Stemp in the top 6 will be an upgrade IMO. Maybe not a big one but maybe an upgrade that will show come playoff time. I also want Semin no matter what other people say about his game, he is still a goal scorer and will cost nothing but money. Moen sounds good and trading Dubinsky sounds a bit bad unless you are getting a top 6 guy back. Dubinsky had a bad season and i don't think you trade him just because he struggled a bit. Dubinsky-Richards-Gaborik is what i would like to see.
who are they better than in our top 6 right now? Richards? Gaborik? Callahan? Kreider? Stepan? Maybe Hagelin...

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06-24-2012, 09:32 PM
  #32
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I just can't see why we would want to sink another $7.8M into a player. The Rangers finally are clear of terrible contracts. Sure Nash may turn out to be great for the Rangers, but how do the Rangers afford the rest of the team when you have 4 players making almost $30M?

I guess the idea works out that flipping Nash for Dubinsky would save enough money until Gaborik's contract expires. IDK.

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06-24-2012, 09:33 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by NewYorkRangers89 View Post
Why do you think Nash will score 35-40 here?
Because he's always over 30 with no talent around him? Is it too much to expect 5 more playing with Richards and Gaborik?

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06-24-2012, 09:34 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by gravey9 View Post
Cash For Nash...

The simpler way to look at it... if you use the Richards trade as an example.

If we assume that Richards and Nash are roughly equals in terms of impact on a game (within the proximity of each other at least). Then you have to look at the dollars and age and understand that the terms you're getting Richards is considerably more favorable than in which you're getting Nash.

The question is: how much different?

In reality: It's 2 mil in cap space/year. And 3 prime years.

If Nash is traded to a contender, those 3 prime years make a big difference. At 28, he has a window of 3 or 4 prime years (perhaps the Stanley Cup contention window). Whereas, with Richards at 25 - it's 6-7 years.

That's potentially double the amount of prime years to contend.

Thus, I'd argue the value of Richards (and his contract) is not only 2 million dollars cheaper but potentially twice as good in regards to age.

So, again, how much do you lower the price for Nash to correct for that? You might argue nothing. But I would argue... something. I would not make the same trade for Richards at 25 than I would Nash at 28. I just wouldn't. And so while Miller is not Schenn - he's projected as 2nd/3rd line center. And a 1st in next round's draft is considerably better than the last pick of the 2nd round in 2012.
Thanks for responding.....I learn a lot from the cap posts (seriously) good stuff.

Couple clarifications though:

Richards is 27 now (and 8 months younger than Nash)
--At the time he was traded he was 26 yrs and 4 months old (when dealt)
--Nash turned 28 a week ago so if he was dealt (I really can't believe we are splitting hairs about age like this but whatever.....

In present value the Richards trade would be 1.5 years younger not 3 (that is fudging numbers that are irrelevant anyway over the next 3-4 years)

If Nash went to the Rangers imo with what they have they would be cup favorites....
Only Ovie has scored more goals the last seven years than Nash....okay.

Regarding the picks: The Rangers will be really good so the a "safe bet" is the pick would be really late. The difference between a late first and a late 2nd is neglible. Any pick outside the top 6 or 7 is really a crapshoot anyway.

If you don't want to affect the core, or as Sather would say "dismantle" a little dramatic (lol) then we would need your top prospect imo....And we know who that is.

Sather might want to move forward as is which is okay as well...

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06-24-2012, 09:34 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by LordsCup View Post
Get Ryan!!!!
We can't without Stepan.

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06-24-2012, 09:34 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
who are they better than in our top 6 right now? Richards? Gaborik? Callahan? Kreider? Stepan? Maybe Hagelin...


I only say that because they have played in the top 6 on previous teams and put up decent numbers. Hagelin is a 3rd liner, 0 goals in 20 playoff games proved that. Even Stepan who people wanna trade for Ryan had a goal or two in the playoffs. Poni beat the hell out of us in the Devils series.

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06-24-2012, 09:35 PM
  #37
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Because he's always over 30 with no talent around him? Is it too much to expect 5 more playing with Richards and Gaborik?
Any sane person would no the answer to that...no.

Plus his talent alone and presence would free up others to score.

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06-24-2012, 09:36 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
Thanks for responding.....I learn a lot from the cap posts (seriously) good stuff.

Couple clarifications though:

Richards is 27 now (and 8 months younger than Nash)
--At the time he was traded he was 26 yrs and 4 months old (when dealt)
--Nash turned 28 a week ago so if he was dealt (I really can't believe we are splitting hairs about age like this but whatever.....

In present value the Richards trade would be 1.5 years younger not 3 (that is fudging numbers that are irrelevant anyway over the next 3-4 years)

If Nash went to the Rangers imo with what they have they would be cup favorites....
Only Ovie has scored more goals the last seven years than Nash....okay.

Regarding the picks: The Rangers will be really good so the a "safe bet" is the pick would be really late. The difference between a late first and a late 2nd is neglible. Any pick outside the top 6 or 7 is really a crapshoot anyway.

If you don't want to affect the core, or as Sather would say "dismantle" a little dramatic (lol) then we would need your top prospect imo....And we know who that is.

Sather might want to move forward as is which is okay as well...
Miller????? Fwiw when they are in the nhl I consider them roster players.

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06-24-2012, 09:39 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
Any sane person would no the answer to that...no.

Plus his talent alone and presence would free up others to score.
I absolutely hate the cap hit and I can see why others don't want him because of it, but to question his talent and goal scoring ability? No

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06-24-2012, 09:39 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
Any sane person would no the answer to that...no.

Plus his talent alone and presence would free up others to score.
Not to be a dick but weren't you the one in the Nash thread on the Trade/Free Agent board that said the only fair offer was the ridiculous overpayment some Ottawa fan proposed?

Michalek
Zibanejad
Cowen
1st

Something like that?

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06-24-2012, 09:39 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
Because he's always over 30 with no talent around him? Is it too much to expect 5 more playing with Richards and Gaborik?


Well for one thing he will not play with Richards and Gaborik if he came here. The plan is to have 2 good top lines, not one filled with Nash, Richards and Gaborik. He might be a lock at 30, but at what cost is the big question? Howson wants 21 year old kids with alot of potential for a guy making 7.8 million. You do not make that trade in a cap world, sorry but you just don't. There are other ways to upgrade the offense, Nash isn't the only guy out there.

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06-24-2012, 09:41 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by NewYorkRangers89 View Post
Having one of Poni or Stemp in the top 6 will be an upgrade IMO. Maybe not a big one but maybe an upgrade that will show come playoff time. I also want Semin no matter what other people say about his game, he is still a goal scorer and will cost nothing but money. Moen sounds good and trading Dubinsky sounds a bit bad unless you are getting a top 6 guy back. Dubinsky had a bad season and i don't think you trade him just because he struggled a bit. Dubinsky-Richards-Gaborik is what i would like to see.
Stempniak if had to choose.

We agree on Semin definetly.

Moen - yes.

The idea is to package to Dubinsky to get a better player.

Lost faith in Duby a little, but wouldn't mind that much if he stayed.

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Old
06-24-2012, 09:42 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by NewYorkRangers89 View Post
Well for one thing he will not play with Richards and Gaborik if he came here. The plan is to have 2 good top lines, not one filled with Nash, Richards and Gaborik. He might be a lock at 30, but at what cost is the big question? Howson wants 21 year old kids with alot of potential for a guy making 7.8 million. You do not make that trade in a cap world, sorry but you just don't. There are other ways to upgrade the offense, Nash isn't the only guy out there.
ok so he plays with stepan and Callahan that's still 35 goals. And he will also be on the pp with Richards and Gabs most likely. So yes 35 goals

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06-24-2012, 09:43 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
Only Ovie has scored more goals the last seven years than Nash....okay.
I didn't count it up, but just by looking with my eyes, it seems pretty safe to say Kovalchuk scored more than Nash.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cash for Nash View Post
Any sane person would no the answer to that...no.

Plus his talent alone and presence would free up others to score.
As Ranger fans who have been getting free agents for ages, it is safe for us to assume numbers don't increase when players come here. In general, we'd be happy if players put up the same numbers they put up before.
Gaborik was going to score 50 out of Minnesota's defensive system. With an amazing playmaker like Richards, his numbers will skyrocket.

Instead, they stayed just about where they always were.


The style we play deflates numbers. If Nash comes here, we have to assume that his production will be no better than in Columbus.

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06-24-2012, 09:43 PM
  #45
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Also I'm ok trying to upgrade the offense w Semin absolutely. He would score 30 here imo

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06-24-2012, 09:44 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
ok so he plays with stepan and Callahan that's still 35 goals. And he will also be on the pp with Richards and Gabs most likely. So yes 35 goals


Ok now can you tell me how many goals Kreider will score in his rookie season? How many goals will Dubi rebound with? You seem to think Nash will score 35 for the sake of being Nash. If he scored 25 would you be mad?

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06-24-2012, 09:45 PM
  #47
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Listen Its tough to let a guy go you have been watching for a few years ( core ) guys . They all came up through the system drafted ect .
Sometimes you need to bite the bullet and let them go . If it is Dubi , mdz, Staal , Miller , thomas, ect .

Mcd ,Ck , Hank ,Richards should be the only untouchables ... Everyone eles could get dealt in the right move .

Parise isnt coming here .. i dont see it happening truthfully i dont want him . I know it will only take cash its just something that scares me with him. Nash i want something tells me if we get him he will go HAM and score 40+ with 30-45 asst . Ryan i would like he is young but with the team he plays with now and the guys shouldnt he be putting up 85-100 pts .

Back in 94 we had to trade away some guys we all loved but look what it brought us .
Its only a matter of time before Nash breaks his silence and goes off . I think his list is 3 teams . NYR ,Sharks , maybe Philly or LA . Philly is out i believe LA not happening . Sharks i dont think they have a package with out couture that is as goos as ours .

Say Dubi , AA, Thomas, DM , 1st two 3rds next year .

Over payment maybe but i truly believe Slats and Torts think Nash will put us over the hump.
This isnt the slats from 2000-05 .
Its different now He knows what it takes and I think Nash is one of the missing pieces .

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06-24-2012, 09:45 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
Stempniak if had to choose.

We agree on Semin definetly.

Moen - yes.

The idea is to package to Dubinsky to get a better player.

Lost faith in Duby a little, but wouldn't mind that much if he stayed.

I agree, i wanted Moen when Montreal signed him and i still want him here, good player to have on the bottom 6 in the playoffs and we need guys like that now. I like the way you think.

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06-24-2012, 09:46 PM
  #49
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Miller????? Fwiw when they are in the nhl I consider them roster players.
Hehe....I see what you did there.

I consider a prospect somebody who has yet to play half a season in the league.

Mika Zbenijad (Ottawa) played ten games at the start of last season (prospect)
Robin Lehner (Ottawa) stud goalie who played really well in spot duty last year (prospect)
Adam Larson (New Jersey) Defensemen who played significantly but spent a lot of time in the minors (still a prospect).

The line between prospect and young roster player can become blurry.

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06-24-2012, 09:47 PM
  #50
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Let's think about that for a minute.
Dubi and Kreider or Stepan for Nash.

Scenario 1:
Nash - Richards - Gabby
Hagelin - Stepan - Cally
??? - Anisimov - ???
Rupp - Boyle - XXX

Scenario 2:
Nash - Richards - Gabby
Kreider - Anisimov - Cally
Hagelin - ??? - ???
Rupp - Boyle - XXX

The trade filled 1 spot but created a void in another.
Saying that Dubi going back will help offset Nash's contract is not really true, because you have to go out and sign FAs to fill the hole the trade left on the team, either 3C or 3LW.

I would rather go with this
Semin - Richards - Gabby
Kreider - Stepan - Cally
Hags - AA - Dubi

Semin is not ideal but he can score. With the team's defensive system, his defensive warts can be hidden. This will also allow the kids to develop in OUR system instead of somebody else's.

Ryan/Nash was a nice dream, but at these prices, I would rather pass and build from within.

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