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Question about Hollwegs Charging Call

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04-10-2006, 01:46 AM
  #1
Balej20*
 
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Question about Hollwegs Charging Call

I happened to miss the first minute or two of the 2nd, so I missed this penalty. Can anyone explain what he did to warrant 5 minutes of penalty time? Hollweg is now starting to get a reputation as a dirty player, and I don't think it's a fair stigma. 95% of his hits are completely clean. But now it seems like he's a marked man. So anyway, can some just explain the hit and tell me if he deserved 5 minutes.

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04-10-2006, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balej20
I happened to miss the first minute or two of the 2nd, so I missed this penalty. Can anyone explain what he did to warrant 5 minutes of penalty time? Hollweg is now starting to get a reputation as a dirty player, and I don't think it's a fair stigma. 95% of his hits are completely clean. But now it seems like he's a marked man. So anyway, can some just explain the hit and tell me if he deserved 5 minutes.
I wish I had an answer. I saw nothing that warranted a five minute major. Rafalski was not prone. There was no injury. Hollweg did glide. And, as JD pointed out, you are allowed to to explode into a player. I could see two minutes for charging. But, a five minute major? No way. Far worse was what White did to Straka, a play that got Gauthier tossed Saturday on Saturday, when he checked Wellwood from behind. The only difference there was that Wellwood did come up bloody, while Straka somehow got his hands up to prevent from going headfirst into the boards. A far more dangerous play, if you ask me.

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04-10-2006, 06:38 AM
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Tomas Sandstrom 28
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He was coming in with speed, but did stop his skating stride as he prepared for the hit.
The reason a charge was called is because hollweg left his feet prior to making contact with rafalski, he also got his arms up a little to rafalski's head, which always makes the hit worse in the referee's eyes

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04-10-2006, 07:59 AM
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If Hollweg's hit warrented a major, then the hit on Straka should've been a major as well. Poor officiating last night but that's not the reason we lost.

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04-10-2006, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomas Sandstrom 28
The reason a charge was called is because hollweg left his feet prior to making contact with rafalski, he also got his arms up a little to rafalski's head, which always makes the hit worse in the referee's eyes
Does the rulebook describe charging as "leaving your feet"? Is there a rule that covers "leaving your feet".

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04-10-2006, 08:13 AM
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http://www.nhl.com/hockeyu/rulebook/rule47.html

Charging - Rule 47

Charging shall mean the actions of a player who, as a result of distance traveled, shall violently check an opponent in any manner. A "Charge" may be the result of a check into the boards, into the goal frame or in open ice.

a. A minor or major penalty shall be imposed on a player who skates or jumps into, or charges an opponent in any manner.

b. When a major penalty is imposed under this Rule for a foul resulting in an injury to the face or head of an opponent, a game misconduct shall be imposed, and an automatic fine of one hundred dollars ($100).

c. A minor, major or a major and a game misconduct shall be imposed on a player who charges a goalkeeper while the goalkeeper is within his goal crease.

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04-10-2006, 08:21 AM
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Melrose_Jr.
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Thanks. That was quick!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRangersFan
a. A minor or major penalty shall be imposed on a player who skates or jumps into, or charges an opponent in any manner.
I guess it comes down to a ref's discretion then, which always sucks IMO. The way the game was called, no surprise he chose major.

Hollweg's operating close to the edge, so, bottom line, Renney can either reign him in or live with the consequences. Keeping it close to edge is probably breathing new life into Orr's chances for staying in the lineup though.

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04-10-2006, 08:23 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRangersFan
http://www.nhl.com/hockeyu/rulebook/rule47.html

Charging - Rule 47

Charging shall mean the actions of a player who, as a result of distance traveled, shall violently check an opponent in any manner. A "Charge" may be the result of a check into the boards, into the goal frame or in open ice.

a. A minor or major penalty shall be imposed on a player who skates or jumps into, or charges an opponent in any manner.

b. When a major penalty is imposed under this Rule for a foul resulting in an injury to the face or head of an opponent, a game misconduct shall be imposed, and an automatic fine of one hundred dollars ($100).

c. A minor, major or a major and a game misconduct shall be imposed on a player who charges a goalkeeper while the goalkeeper is within his goal crease.
The thing is that you actually are allowed to leave your feet at the point of impact. You are allowed to explode into a hit. That happened when the Rangers played Buffalo and either Briere or Grier left their feet at the point of impact. Hollweg was gliding for about 5 feet. IF he left his feet before the point of impact, it's a penalty. If not, then nothing should have been called. In either case, it did not warrant a major.
And if it did, then White's and Marshall's charges should have both been majors.
Looks like the Kasper hit on Marshall only got Marshall mad becuase he had to endure what he usually does to other people. He looks to be quite the hypocrite today.

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04-10-2006, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
IF he left his feet before the point of impact, it's a penalty. If not, then nothing should have been called.
I disagree. The rule says a charge, even a major, can be called without leaving your feet.

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04-10-2006, 08:28 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
I disagree. The rule says a charge, even a major, can be called without leaving your feet.
I am not saying that it was not a charge. I am simply stating that whether or not you leave your feet does not make or break the penalty being called. You are allowed to leave your feet, it's just a matter of when.

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04-10-2006, 08:39 AM
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Tomas Sandstrom 28
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I've found in my own hockey experience, both playing and watching, that charging, as well as the boarding penalty, both have a lot of grey area, as to what is or is not a penalty.

for the most part, leaving your feet, taking more than 2 or three strides before a hit, and high hits will usually get you a charging penalty. But a lot is open to referee's discression, particularly when deciding whether a hit is a major or minor. which basically comes down to how "violent" the ref deems the hit.

A key part of this is that when watching a game on tv, these type of plays always look a lot different in slow-motion replay then they do from the referee's point of view on the ice. and as we know, what the referee thinks he sees and what actually happens are not always the same.

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04-10-2006, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRangersFan
http://www.nhl.com/hockeyu/rulebook/rule47.html

Charging - Rule 47

Charging shall mean the actions of a player who, as a result of distance traveled, shall violently check an opponent in any manner. A "Charge" may be the result of a check into the boards, into the goal frame or in open ice.

a. A minor or major penalty shall be imposed on a player who skates or jumps into, or charges an opponent in any manner.

b. When a major penalty is imposed under this Rule for a foul resulting in an injury to the face or head of an opponent, a game misconduct shall be imposed, and an automatic fine of one hundred dollars ($100).

c. A minor, major or a major and a game misconduct shall be imposed on a player who charges a goalkeeper while the goalkeeper is within his goal crease.
WOW!!. I'm sure that $100 fine will make players think twice about doing it again.

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04-10-2006, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
I am not saying that it was not a charge. I am simply stating that whether or not you leave your feet does not make or break the penalty being called. You are allowed to leave your feet, it's just a matter of when.


Since when are you allowed to leave your feet? It doesn't matter if they called it charging, elbowing, hooking, whatever it was a penalty. He got there in time but he left his feet and gave Rafalski a nice forearm to the head. That = Penalty in 99% of the games I seen.

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04-10-2006, 09:25 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radek27
Since when are you allowed to leave your feet? It doesn't matter if they called it charging, elbowing, hooking, whatever it was a penalty. He got there in time but he left his feet and gave Rafalski a nice forearm to the head. That = Penalty in 99% of the games I seen.
Since always. You are allowed to explode into the hit, once you make contact. You are not allowed to leave your feet before contact.

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04-10-2006, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radek27
Since when are you allowed to leave your feet? It doesn't matter if they called it charging, elbowing, hooking, whatever it was a penalty. He got there in time but he left his feet and gave Rafalski a nice forearm to the head. That = Penalty in 99% of the games I seen.
TB is right, you are allowed to leave your feet after contact. And he has stated several times that it was a penalty, just not a major. I have to agree.

The refs are paid to make proper calls in real time. We are amateurs and generally emotional/stupid. We need the repaly, not them. He got the penalty for the amount of strides he took before the hit. He went high. That wasn't a major because he only put Rafalski on his butt, unlike White's hit that almost put Straka's head through the boards. Oh, and the distance from the boards was very similar to the play which broke Eric Cole's neck. That was a major. The penalty may have grey areas but if they establish a standard within a game they have to stay consistent. Not calling Marshall or giving White a major is not consistent to the penalty to Hollweg.

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04-10-2006, 01:08 PM
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Should have been a 2 minute minor for it being up high, but he earned the extra 3 minutes simply for the name and # on the back of his jersey.

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04-10-2006, 04:49 PM
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he did nothing to warrant five minutes. i've seen hundreds of play like that go uncalled, and hundreds more where players were given two minutes. I have NEVER seen a play like that when another player wasn't hurt being called a major. Disgusting. But it ended up working to our advantage. The referees did an atrocious job last night. period.

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04-10-2006, 05:03 PM
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it's a shame the officiating is so terrible. but at least it's terrible across the board.

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04-10-2006, 08:32 PM
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As I said in the GDT, the major being assessed had more to do with Brylin gushing the play before than it did the actual charge. Hollweg was gliding for 5-8 ft. before he hit the guy, and jumped only after he made contact.

The refs needed to get the game under control, and with Hollweg running guys it was bound to get silly. Notice that things didn't really escalate afterwards, which is the job of an official: to manage the game.

I, personally, didn't think it was warranted, but at the risk of someone seriously getting hurt (nobody on the Devils knew what really happened to Brylin, all they saw was the huge puddle of blood) through some foolishness half way through the game, action was necessary.

Also keep in mind that these teams will likely play each other in the first round, which is another reason for the league to keep things tight.

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04-10-2006, 08:37 PM
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It's also worth noting that in today's NHL you really can't even hit a guy without the other team getting pissed off and trying to mob you (ala Naslund-Moore, then Moore-Bert).

It's not that Hollweg is necessarily creaming people, it's how he does it. He comes FLYING in at high speeds, and because he's so little, guys think "this little piece deserves it."

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04-10-2006, 08:59 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
Thanks. That was quick!



I guess it comes down to a ref's discretion then, which always sucks IMO. The way the game was called, no surprise he chose major.

Hollweg's operating close to the edge, so, bottom line, Renney can either reign him in or live with the consequences. Keeping it close to edge is probably breathing new life into Orr's chances for staying in the lineup though.
As you had asked, "jumping" is obviously leaving your feet. But the other part of the rule "skates into" implies that the player took strides leading up to the hit in an effort to put more power into it. I can't remember if Hollweg took strides, but he definitely jumped and hit the Jersey player in the head.

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04-10-2006, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trippyime
As you had asked, "jumping" is obviously leaving your feet. But the other part of the rule "skates into" implies that the player took strides leading up to the hit in an effort to put more power into it. I can't remember if Hollweg took strides, but he definitely jumped and hit the Jersey player in the head.
That sounds just like what the ref saw, verbatum. He did stop skating 5-8 feet before the hit but at those speeds it is no more than a second. He did jump but it was right at or right before contact, which is legal and something that occurred before and after that hit within that game. His arms were high and I think that is the key to the major, however the contact from the arms was insignificant but tough for the ref to distinguish. Look, no one is disputing the penalty, just the major. It is an even tougher pill to swallow given the Marshall and White hits that were similar in nature. If they want to play it by the book than do it all game. If they want to get control than play it both ways. That is not too much to ask.

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04-10-2006, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugerya
That sounds just like what the ref saw, verbatum. He did stop skating 5-8 feet before the hit but at those speeds it is no more than a second. He did jump but it was right at or right before contact, which is legal and something that occurred before and after that hit within that game. His arms were high and I think that is the key to the major, however the contact from the arms was insignificant but tough for the ref to distinguish. Look, no one is disputing the penalty, just the major. It is an even tougher pill to swallow given the Marshall and White hits that were similar in nature. If they want to play it by the book than do it all game. If they want to get control than play it both ways. That is not too much to ask.
You're right in everything you said. I'm not sure the major was the right call.

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04-10-2006, 09:51 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly
Should have been a 2 minute minor for it being up high, but he earned the extra 3 minutes simply for the name and # on the back of his jersey.
There it is...Sometimes penalties are called because of reputation. If the RJ Umberger hit did not happen, that might not have been a 5 minute major last night. Granted that is all speculation and it is water under the bridge anyway but just a thought.

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