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The Offseason Thread Part X: Bobby, we're better than Philly!

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06-25-2012, 12:42 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by alvesNYR View Post
If we somehow land Shultz, I say we immediately talk to Anaheim about a Ryan trade. Since the Ducks are obviously looking for defense, the discussion starts with Staal or Girardi. Who do you give up first?
Schultz is gonna be a top 4 dman right away? Also, girardi is our only RHD

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06-25-2012, 01:00 AM
  #177
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He wanted Kreider, Hags, Dubi, McTruck and a 1st.
Then it was Krieder, Hags/Stepan, Dubi, MDZ, Erixon and a 1st.
That's 6 or 7 years of player development. For one guy and a crap load of cap hit. Crazy. Just plain crazy.

Dubi comes back and has a normal year. Kreider comes close to producing his potential. Hags, Steps and DZ continue to develop and improve. It can all happen pretty easily...

It's not sexy, but it's a cheaper, better alternative, imo.

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06-25-2012, 01:06 AM
  #178
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That's 6 or 7 years of player development. For one guy and a crap load of cap hit. Crazy. Just plain crazy.

Dubi comes back and has a normal year. Kreider comes close to producing his potential. Hags, Steps and DZ continue to develop and improve. It can all happen pretty easily...

It's not sexy, but it's a cheaper, better alternative, imo.

I don't know about the "pretty easily" thing, (especially considering that the exact opposite is also very likely) but all of that can happen.

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06-25-2012, 01:06 AM
  #179
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Gonna be a travesty if we trade for Nash. My fandom would be severely tested.

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06-25-2012, 01:13 AM
  #180
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Gonna be a travesty if we trade for Nash. My fandom would be severely tested.
The odds it ends badly are better than the odds it ends well,from the way I see things. That's why I want no part of a blockbuster trade for Nash.

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06-25-2012, 01:16 AM
  #181
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if we get nash we will all be creaming our pants cause that means we got him at slat's price cause slats is too much of an old stubborn ******* to suddenly cave to howson's demands...

for that reason we probably won't get him. but if we do the reaction will be 'i can't believe we got him for only that'

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06-25-2012, 01:19 AM
  #182
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if we get nash we will all be creaming our pants cause that means we got him at slat's price cause slats is too much of an old stubborn ******* to suddenly cave to howson's demands...

for that reason we probably won't get him. but if we do the reaction will be 'i can't believe we got him for only that'
Agreed.

I'd put it at 50/50 right now, maybe a little less. Howson has proven to be quite unpredictable and San Jose might get desperate. But if Nash comes to NY it will be on Sather's terms.

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06-25-2012, 01:21 AM
  #183
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The odds it ends badly are better than the odds it ends well,from the way I see things. That's why I want no part of a blockbuster trade for Nash.
We're messing up with a good thing here. Home grown talent led us to finish 1st in the EC. Don't ruin it by throwing away young, quality assets for one of the most overpaid, underachieving players in the league,

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06-25-2012, 01:25 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
We're messing up with a good thing here. Home grown talent led us to finish 1st in the EC. Don't ruin it by throwing away young, quality assets for one of the most overpaid, underachieving players in the league,
Post of the year

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06-25-2012, 01:43 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
We're messing up with a good thing here. Home grown talent led us to finish 1st in the EC. Don't ruin it by throwing away young, quality assets for one of the most overpaid, underachieving players in the league,
A thousand times this.

People rag on Dubi because, for the first time in 4 seasons, his stats went down (along with his minutes and all of his PP time). One down year and suddenly he's never going to be what he was...12 months ago.

Nash's numbers have gone down three years in a row. This ******** narrative that Columbus fans have cooked up about how his numbers are only down because of the team around him? It's ********. I can cite one player after another whose quality has come through while surrounded by lesser players than those Nash has had over the years.

I get that the general age for posters on this forum leans to the young side. Some of you might not remember the dark years pre-lockout. Nash is the poster child for the kind of player pre-lockout Rangers fell in love with. Overpaid? Check. Producing below expectations? Check. Big name? Check. Assumption that things will magically change just because he pulls on a Rangers sweater? Check. I'm sure Nash has a lot of talent. So did Nik Zherdev and Pavel Brendl. It takes more than talent, and Nash doesn't have it. He's not only a personal "75 percenter" but in the words of his own team's fans he spreads that attitude throughout the locker room.

I wouldn't want Rick Nash on this team for free.

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06-25-2012, 01:49 AM
  #186
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I'm just gonna point this out here:

Martin Havlat, who by all accounts on HF is labelled as an overpaid soft player has a career PPG of 0.82. Was his value ever worth MDZ, 1st, Miller and McIlrath at one point?

What about Ales Hemsky? HF's most undervalued player. He has a career 0.79 PPG despite playing with garbage players his whole career. Was he ever worth DZ, 1st, Miller and McIlrath?

Oh but there is Rick Nash! With his staggering 0.81 PPG! We should completely sell the farm for him!

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06-25-2012, 01:57 AM
  #187
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Also, some things to keep in mind for the people who keep going chicken little over the lack of Ranger moves this offseason.

1--Yes, Philly and Pitts are making moves. That doesn't mean the Rangers need to go nuts and do something drastic. Let me ask you something. Assume the Rangers add Nash or Ryan. Will that make them better offensively than Crosby/Neal/Malkin? What about Giroux and co? No, it won't. The Rangers would need to add BOTH Nash and Ryan and a bit more if they want to win an offensive gun fight with those teams. THIS team is able to compete with those teams because of a group defensive effort, phenomenal goaltending, and (ideally) scoring throughout the lineup. Trading depth for one superstar that doesn't defend very well will only hurt this team.

2--Others have posted it, but it bears repeating. You don't fix anything when you plug one hole by opening up another. Use some logic here. Right now, our lineup looks something like this:

Hagelin Richards Gaborik
Kreider Stepan Callahan
Dubi Ani XXXX
XXX Boyle Rupp

McD Girardi
Staal XXX
MDZ XXX

Lundqvist

This team needs a middle 6 RW, a 4th liner and a defenseman or two. Start trading Dubi, MDZ, Hagelin, AA, Staal, Kreider etc and you start opening up MORE holes, but now we don't have the youth to fill them, and the FA market is pretty lame this year. The end result is a lesser team with no assets/room to fix the problems.

3--Why does ANYONE think that the team is going to hell in a handbasket unless it acts RIGHT NOW. They have tons of time. Even with Gaborik's injury, this is still a team that will make the playoffs. There are a lot of questions right now. Can Kreider put up 20-30 goals over a season? Can Callahan keep up his production? Will Dubi and Richards return to their previous form? Will Stepan, Hagelin, MDZ etc progress? We don't know the answers to those questions right now. On top of that, there aren't many appealing options at the moment. Nash is too expensive (in more ways than one). Ryan might be even more expensive, and both of those players have some question marks (both have character concerns, and Nash shows three straight years of declining play).

With that being the case, doesn't it make a LOT more sense to plug our holes with less risky FA (like a Sykora and maybe bring back Feds plus a RD) and make the big decisions closer to the trade deadline when A-most of our questions about some of our own players will have been answered and B-there will likely be more available to address our needs?

Patience, folks. Patience.

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06-25-2012, 02:01 AM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kershaw View Post
I'm just gonna point this out here:

Martin Havlat, who by all accounts on HF is labelled as an overpaid soft player has a career PPG of 0.82. Was his value ever worth MDZ, 1st, Miller and McIlrath at one point?

What about Ales Hemsky? HF's most undervalued player. He has a career 0.79 PPG despite playing with garbage players his whole career. Was he ever worth DZ, 1st, Miller and McIlrath?

Oh but there is Rick Nash! With his staggering 0.81 PPG! We should completely sell the farm for him!
I agree with you man, but you can't compare two players who are made of a thinner glass than Gaborik was molded from to a PWF like Nash. From a durability stand point they could be career PPG players, but it doesn't mean **** when you average 60 games played per season over the course of your career. (Which Havlat has)

Havlat has 1 season where he played 80 + games in 11 seasons total. Nash has 1 year where he played less than 74 games over 9 seasons total.

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06-25-2012, 02:06 AM
  #189
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I agree with you man, but you can't compare two players who are made of a thinner glass than Gaborik was molded from to a PWF like Nash. From a durability stand point they could be career PPG players, but it doesn't mean **** when you average 60 games played per season over the course of your career. (Which Havlat has)

Havlat has 1 season where he played 80 + games in 11 seasons total. Nash has 1 year where he played less than 74 games over 9 seasons total.
I am merely stating the fact that the argument that Nash doesn't have help around him is bull. Great players find a way to produce no matter what. Hemsky and Havlat, who were some of my favorite players at one point were as good of players as Nash when they're healthy.

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06-25-2012, 02:08 AM
  #190
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Schultz is gonna be a top 4 dman right away? Also, girardi is our only RHD
Not only that, but EVEN IF we assume that Schultz will be a top 4 dman right away (a foolish assumption, as we saw with the Erixon situation last year), I think a big part of our sales pitch will be the fact that he would be playing with either Staal or McDonagh (that 2nd pair RD spot is up for grabs as MDZ doesn't play the off-side very well and Sauer still looks a ways away). Imagine being a young PMD looking to establish yourself in the league. Can you imagine how comforting it would be to know that you would be playing with one of the best shut-down d-men as your partner (regardless of which of Staal/McD he got)?

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06-25-2012, 02:12 AM
  #191
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I am merely stating the fact that the argument that Nash doesn't have help around him is bull. Great players find a way to produce no matter what. Hemsky and Havlat, who were some of my favorite players at one point were as good of players as Nash when they're healthy.
There's a certain level of irony involved, as well. The argument from the Columbus (and pro-Nash Rangers) crowd is that "Nash will put up 20+ more points when he gets the Rangers' roster around him!" Of course, the other half of their argument is that "The Rangers NEED Nash because they can't score to save their lives!" So in order for Nash to score, he needs to go to the Rangers who can't score because only there can Nash get the help he needs to score... It's like sending a virgin from the marching band to the chess club because he's sure to have better luck getting laid there...

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06-25-2012, 02:24 AM
  #192
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Schultz is gonna be a top 4 dman right away? Also, girardi is our only RHD
True, which is one reason as to why I'd rather give up Staal IF I had to choose. I'm not saying I'd love to trade either of them for Ryan, but you know Anaheim will definitely start the conversation with Staal and/or Girardi. They want defense, not Dubinsky ++.

When it comes to possibly trading D for O, a lot still hinges on Sauer's health and whether Schultz signs with the NYR. I really hope Sauer can come back healthy.


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06-25-2012, 02:43 AM
  #193
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True, which is one reason as to why I'd rather give up Staal IF I had to choose. I'm not saying I'd love to trade either of them for Ryan, but you know Anaheim will definitely start the conversation with Staal and/or Girardi. They want defense, not Dubinsky ++.

When it comes to possibly trading D for O, a lot still hinges on Sauer's health and whether Shultz signs with the NYR. I really hope Sauer can come back healthy.

I love Sauer's game, but we need to look at his entire career to date. This concussion was just the latest in a career full of injuries. The poor kid makes Gaborik look like an iron man. Even IF he comes back sooner rather than later, I just don't think we can count on Sauer as a long-term solution on that second pair. He's always going to be one hit away from an injury.

And again--I think having one of Staal/McD on the 2nd pair is the single most important selling point we have to bringing Schultz in. Yeah, it's NY. Yeah, we've got two of his buddies from Wisconsin. Yeah, we'll probably be one of the teams offering max contract/bonuses. At the end of the day, if it's a hockey decision, Schultz will be swayed by the opportunity to win that 2nd pair RD spot next to a top shut down partner. Trade Staal? MDZ would then be Schultz's partner. Trade Girardi? Then Schultz would have a bit too much pressure. We need to add D to what we have. Trading one, even IF we add one, is the wrong move in my opinion.

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06-25-2012, 03:09 AM
  #194
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So in order for Nash to score, he needs to go to the Rangers who can't score because only there can Nash get the help he needs to score... It's like sending a virgin from the marching band to the chess club because he's sure to have better luck getting laid there...
Great line. And very true.

As for addressing scoring, there are many ways to approach. It's not like we were in the bottom half of the league. And it's not like we couldn't get those timely goals. That said, what killed us all year (and added up by the ECF) was a complete inability to put teams away. Rarely did we go enter the 3rd period with a 2 goal lead.

To me, the best way to accomplish this, is by having a moderately effective power play. That would be 20-30 more goals right there - and would equal Nash or Ryan without needing to make an expensive trade or signing.

1 - We must hire a full-time coach for the power play that works on it every week with the team.

2 - We need a true PP QB. Del Zotto hasn't fully grown into this role yet. Erixon, McDonagh, Staal won't be much better. In the interim, we need a vet D like Dan Boyle who can come in for a year or two and make a real difference back there. The D might only score 8 goals, but a more lethal power play would make us a real tough team to beat. Crap, Jagr for a year could greatly help us there too. If I remember correctly, Sykora wasn't too bad on the PP as well.

I believe fixing the power play would be a better thing to focus on than a 4 for 1 trade for Rick Nash.

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06-25-2012, 03:31 AM
  #195
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There are several reasons why I think the Rangers should steer clear of Nash:

1) Howson's outrageous demands. Just because you pay a guy like he's a superstar does not make him a superstar. Nash is a very good goalscorer. He's hit 40 twice. 30 or 30 + 6 times. He's more of a 30 + goal scorer than a 40 goal scorer.

2) $7.8 mil for 6 years is way too much. With a potential lockout and lowered salary cap we could soon wind up in cap hell and have to start dumping players. I don't think Nash is an elite player.

3) there are chemistry issues involved. Keeping the core intact means something to the players. We have a couple would be GM's on this sight who can't go a day without working out some new deal. One thing they never take into consideration is that when arranging their blockbuster deals--3 guys here--4 guys to there that in real life you start shredding the confidence of those remaining. They begin to wonder 'Am I next?--What happened to all my friends?--I thought we were building from within.'

A comment that Dave Maloney made about the Barry Beck deal in which the Rangers sent a slew of young talent to the then Colorado Avalance. Beck was young himself and was a real stud though he would be an injury plagued one. Maloney anyway referenced the deal this way--that the Rangers had gone to the SC finals the year before with a very young team. They never got back there. Trading all those young players left too many holes in the lineup that they couldn't fill from within.

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06-25-2012, 05:05 AM
  #196
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If we get Nash it won't be for that ridiculous price-tag. It will be on Sather's terms because Howson gives in. No way Sather bites on that ******** offered right now.

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06-25-2012, 05:26 AM
  #197
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As for addressing scoring, there are many ways to approach. It's not like we were in the bottom half of the league. And it's not like we couldn't get those timely goals. That said, what killed us all year (and added up by the ECF) was a complete inability to put teams away. Rarely did we go enter the 3rd period with a 2 goal lead.
I don't think it necessary is about "addressing scoring" seen over a full season either.

The problem is that we are extremely up and down in games. If the team we play against can handle our forecheck -- we get nothing going. We are horrible. Then over the course of a full game, we start to break teams down and very few could stand up against us for 60 minutes.

Getting one more talented forward is all about becoming better over the course of 60 minutes. To be able to create atleast something during long early stretches when we can't get a hold of the team we are playing against on the forecheck.

So we need a player that can win offensive momentum for us, by himself basically. That's my analyses at least. And the reason for why I have a big problem every time someone say that we need a "sniper" and that like a Teemu Selanne would do. Our problem is not that we dominate but can't put the puck in the net. Our problem is that we for long stretches/entire games against teams that do well against us, fail to get much offense going.

Getting a forward that every time he steps on the ice will be a threat on the ice and push the other team back, that's what we need more than anything else.

Quote:
...

I believe fixing the power play would be a better thing to focus on than a 4 for 1 trade for Rick Nash.
I agree on the importance of fixing the PP. And I am not sold on that Nash could fix it (like I've said a thousand times atleast, we really would need a left handed play maker down low that Brad Richards could work with). Gaborik can just not figure the PP out. He is pretty clueless on the PP (or not modern at least). Nash might, Nash might not. I think he would be a little bit more of the same to be honest.

But a line with Nash-Stepan-Callahan would definitely give us another dimension 5 on 5. As a one-man-force, Nash is definitely among the top 4-5 in the game. Nash is a player that every team in this league talks about when playing Columbus. He is a player you always make sure to have your best D on the ice against. And he is not a player like Gaborik who does not have much of a impact inbetween the 4-5 scoring chances he gets per game, no, Nash gets the puck up ice. He protects it down low and creates scoring chances. And we really need that.

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If we get Nash it won't be for that ridiculous price-tag. It will be on Sather's terms because Howson gives in. No way Sather bites on that ******** offered right now.
Yeah, there seem to be two sides on here on the Nash debate. But in reality, I wonder if we aren't pretty much in concensus but the diffrent sides are looking at Nash from diffrent perspetives. One side would love to get Nash if Howson gets back to earth and takes a fair offer (and post about that), the other side think it would suck to get Nash if it ment giving up 5 core players lol (and post about that).

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06-25-2012, 06:08 AM
  #198
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I don't think it necessary is about "addressing scoring" seen over a full season either.

The problem is that we are extremely up and down in games. If the team we play against can handle our forecheck -- we get nothing going. We are horrible. Then over the course of a full game, we start to break teams down and very few could stand up against us for 60 minutes.

Getting one more talented forward is all about becoming better over the course of 60 minutes. To be able to create atleast something during long early stretches when we can't get a hold of the team we are playing against on the forecheck.

So we need a player that can win offensive momentum for us, by himself basically. That's my analyses at least. And the reason for why I have a big problem every time someone say that we need a "sniper" and that like a Teemu Selanne would do. Our problem is not that we dominate but can't put the puck in the net. Our problem is that we for long stretches/entire games against teams that do well against us, fail to get much offense going.

Getting a forward that every time he steps on the ice will be a threat on the ice and push the other team back, that's what we need more than anything else.



I agree on the importance of fixing the PP. And I am not sold on that Nash could fix it (like I've said a thousand times atleast, we really would need a left handed play maker down low that Brad Richards could work with). Gaborik can just not figure the PP out. He is pretty clueless on the PP (or not modern at least). Nash might, Nash might not. I think he would be a little bit more of the same to be honest.

But a line with Nash-Stepan-Callahan would definitely give us another dimension 5 on 5. As a one-man-force, Nash is definitely among the top 4-5 in the game. Nash is a player that every team in this league talks about when playing Columbus. He is a player you always make sure to have your best D on the ice against. And he is not a player like Gaborik who does not have much of a impact inbetween the 4-5 scoring chances he gets per game, no, Nash gets the puck up ice. He protects it down low and creates scoring chances. And we really need that.



Yeah, there seem to be two sides on here on the Nash debate. But in reality, I wonder if we aren't pretty much in concensus but the diffrent sides are looking at Nash from diffrent perspetives. One side would love to get Nash if Howson gets back to earth and takes a fair offer (and post about that), the other side think it would suck to get Nash if it ment giving up 5 core players lol (and post about that).
Great post, Ola. I agree 100% with everything you wrote.

I just wish those in the anti-Nash camp would read the very end of your post before we get another 10 pages of the same argument chasing its tail. Other than 1 or 2 posters on the board, ALL of us in favor of Nash (or Ryan) are only in favor of acquiring him for reasonable returns that include no more than 1, maybe 2 (depending on who the 2 are), roster players.

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06-25-2012, 06:15 AM
  #199
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Ponikarovsky and Stempniak are NOT top 6 wingers.

Talented 3rd line guys? Yes. But not top 6 material.

I would like Semin. I think he provides a similar element that Gaborik brings, Great defensively? No, but servicable enough to play regularly.

Semin, a Right handed shot from the LW on the PP would go a long way towards improving the PP. He's solid on the one-timers as well which we do not have as a weapon.

5 years for 30 million.

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06-25-2012, 06:26 AM
  #200
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The other bad thing about this Nash situation it that it's holding up any potential trade between the Rangers and Sharks where Murray and/or Clowe could come this way. Both would be good pickups. As I've said before, San Jose is desperate to change up something on that team. Time is running out for them and it may already be too late. By the time they develop their next batch of prospects, Thornton and Marleau will be old men and Paveslki and Clowe probably will be playing elsewhere.

As for Semin; yes it seems crazy, but if Keenan got the most out of Kovalev who was still a young kid that was barely in this country for more than a year, Torts and Semin can exist. If Semin wants to be part of something bigger than himself he should come here and work his butt off.

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