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Jordan Staal traded to Carolina for Brandon Sutter, Brian Dumoulin, 8th overall

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06-24-2012, 09:29 PM
  #251
Malkin4Top6Wingerz
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I'm talking about who draws the other teams best pairs and checking line. When all three centers were in the lineup, the focus was always on stopping Malkin and Crosby. Staal's presence did little to affect that.
This isn't 2002 any longer, pure checking lines are the exception and not the norm. Good checking lines are even harder to find. Most teams have adopted a model of strength on strength - your best players against our best players. This is largely because of the way obstruction has been removed from the game, and while some might say it's creeped back in, it's still night and day compared to before the lockout. The best way to keep the other team from scoring is to never let them have the puck. Which means that when Staal is matched up against the other team's top offensive players, Crosby and Malkin play against lines that have more difficulty controlling the puck, and subsequently, them. That's not even taking into account how valuable it is to ice a third line that can outscore the other team's first line, let alone the effects it has on Crosby and Malkin.

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You need to allocate money to your defense. You don't need to allocate 4m to your third line center. That is a luxury.
I don't see why having as much money tied up in our defense as we did was any less of a luxury than paying a third line center $4m. I really don't. If you want to be frank about it, we 'needed' Staal much more than we 'needed' any of those defenseman making a comparable salary minus Letang.

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Let's also not forget that investing in defense brought Neal, Kunitz and Tangradi aboard. With another 4m to spend who knows who Shero might of acquired/signed. I have very little doubt it would have been enough to help round out the top 6 with more skill than we have seen the last four years.
Of course the top 6 would have looked better with Staal out of the equation. What you're not getting is that I can say the same thing about not signing one of Martin / Michalek.

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Also, going fwd Staal's presence and new contract would of really been a roadblock to building around Crosby and Malkin.

I don't see how it could be argued any other way.
I'll agree to an extent, but all I care about is whether or not it would have been a roadblock to this team's chances at another Cup. I don't think it would have been, and neither did Shero.

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This team went on a ten game winning streak without Staal, and BS seems to be an ideal third line center.
Careful, now. This team did fine without Sidney Crosby too.

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With the new found cap space, the two big fish aren't the only ones who can be brought in to help improve this team.
In free agency there's a whole lot of nothing out there beyond Suter and Parise (perhaps Whitney). I certainly don't want to blow significant cap space on what has become a disturbing trend of weak free agent crops. Trades are an option, but who and for what? I have real difficulty seeing us acquire a talent like Ryan or Yandle. Our assets don't fit what those teams need or would realistically want.

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06-24-2012, 09:38 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
I meant or in that sentence. Either of Parise / Suter along with Sutter makes us a better team for sure.
I figured. Just wanted to make sure.

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Ryan and Yandle would cost assets I don't think we have. Whitney looked great last year, but he's going to be 41 by the time the playoffs roll around. I can't say I'm thrilled with those prospects (not that I wouldn't still sign him).
We'll see what they go for. We know how coveted PMDs are, never mind ones with size, so if Despres is in play he could be an attractive piece in a package for one of them. Maybe something involving a couple of our great d prospects and a roster player could intrigue them. We now have the resources to make a deal like that and still not compromise the future of our blueline.

As for Whitney, age is a factor, but he's been extremely durable and shows no signs of slowing down. I think he could be dynamite for us on a one or two year deal.

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06-24-2012, 10:44 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
This isn't 2002 any longer, pure checking lines are the exception and not the norm. Good checking lines are even harder to find. Most teams have adopted a model of strength on strength - your best players against our best players. This is largely because of the way obstruction has been removed from the game, and while some might say it's creeped back in, it's still night and day compared to before the lockout. The best way to keep the other team from scoring is to never let them have the puck. Which means that when Staal is matched up against the other team's top offensive players, Crosby and Malkin play against lines that have more difficulty controlling the puck, and subsequently, them. That's not even taking into account how valuable it is to ice a third line that can outscore the other team's first line, let alone the effects it has on Crosby and Malkin.
Checking lines are alive and well in the NHL today, so I have no clue what you are talking about. For years teams also went strength on strength, it isn't some new development. It all depends on how each team is constructed and the system they play, that determines who is put out agt Crosby and Malkin. It is a constant chess game between the benches to get their respective top lines into favorable matchups.

Are you under the impression other teams let DB dictate who Crosby and Malkin will be matched up agt?

The kicker is, Crosby and Malkin will almost always be matched up agt the other teams top defensive pairs, which is really the most critical matchup. I don't see how you are under the impression Staal gets these pairings away from Crosby and Malkin.

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I don't see why having as much money tied up in our defense as we did was any less of a luxury than paying a third line center $4m. I really don't. If you want to be frank about it, we 'needed' Staal much more than we 'needed' any of those defenseman making a comparable salary minus Letang.
Perhaps, but investing in your defense is critical to building a winning team, much moreso than having a great third pivot.

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Of course the top 6 would have looked better with Staal out of the equation. What you're not getting is that I can say the same thing about not signing one of Martin / Michalek.
That's why there are usually two sides to an argument.

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I'll agree to an extent, but all I care about is whether or not it would have been a roadblock to this team's chances at another Cup. I don't think it would have been, and neither did Shero.
It isn't something any of us will ever know, but it doesn't mean you can't wonder. My original statement was really about how I felt Staal's presence going fwd would prevent this team from truly building around Malkin and Crosby. It is just what I feel is best for this team's future.

I really don't want to take away from what Stasl meant to this teams success. But I do think this move is best for all involved.

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Careful, now. This team did fine without Sidney Crosby too.
They also did well with Malkin out along with Crosby. Yet when all three were together they got embarrassed by Mon then Philly.

So maybe this team doesn't need three star centers to be effective?

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In free agency there's a whole lot of nothing out there beyond Suter and Parise (perhaps Whitney). I certainly don't want to blow significant cap space on what has become a disturbing trend of weak free agent crops. Trades are an option, but who and for what? I have real difficulty seeing us acquire a talent like Ryan or Yandle. Our assets don't fit what those teams need or would realistically want.
We have no idea who can be acquired in a trade, but I know Shero has the assets and the cap space to make some significant moves to improve the team.

He didn't dump Michalek without having a reason along with a backup plan or two.


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06-24-2012, 11:03 PM
  #254
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If his name actually were Jordan Stall, would the Pens have gotten as much?

I am guessing not. Staal light in Sutter, a guy compared to Despres in Dumoilin, and the 8th overall? That is an amazing return, and depending how Pouliot developes worth more than Jordan in any situation, including those where Shero's back was not against the wall.

Thoughts?

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06-24-2012, 11:03 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Tafkak View Post
Someone else made a really going point that while Staal didn't necessarily kill us, his salary and his upcoming salary expectations really hurt us. I hate to see Staal with another team but this allows us to better build out our top two lines and insulate our ridiculous top end talent. Hopefully, it works out for both teams in the end.
That's another reason why I like Sutter in comparison. His cap hit is perfect for a 3LC, and is a bargain for what he brings.

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06-24-2012, 11:13 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I figured. Just wanted to make sure.



We'll see what they go for. We know how coveted PMDs are, never mind ones with size, so if Despres is in play he could be an attractive piece in a package for one of them. Maybe something involving a couple of our great d prospects and a roster player could intrigue them. We now have the resources to make a deal like that and still not compromise the future of our blueline.

As for Whitney, age is a factor, but he's been extremely durable and shows no signs of slowing down. I think he could be dynamite for us on a one or two year deal.

Phoenix is stacked on D with Gormley, Connor Murphy, Ekman-Larsson, Rundblad. I guarantee you that if they trade Yandle, it's going to be for an elite #1 centre. They've got zero interest in a guy like Despres in a deal. They're looking for forwards, not D.

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06-24-2012, 11:34 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Checking lines are alive and well in the NHL today, so I have no clue what you are talking about. For years teams also went strength on strength, it isn't some new development. It all depends on how each team is constructed and the system they play, that determines who is put out agt Crosby and Malkin. It is a constant chess game between the benches to get their respective top lines into favorable matchups.
How many true checking lines can you even name? Unless you consider lines with players like Kesler, Richards, and Bergeron 'checking lines', which I don't because they are also scoring lines, who are you talking about? I seriously doubt you can name but a handful of teams that employ their third liners to face the opposition's most talented offensive players. It just doesn't happen like it used to.

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Are you under the impression other teams let Shero dictate who Crosby and Malkin will be matched up agt?
I assume you mean Bylsma, and absolutely they did - at least when they didn't have last change. Are you seriously claiming that Staal didn't affect the matchups Sid and Geno got? FFS you saw it almost every game. You also saw it on display in the Flyers series where Giroux played against Staal on the road and Crosby at home. I don't understand why we're even debating this.

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The kicker is, Crosby and Malkin will almost always be matched up agt the other teams top defensive pairs, which is really the most critical matchup. I don't see how you are under the impression Staal gets these pairings away from Crosby and Malkin.
They're both extremely critical matchups. I don't care how good Weber and Suter are. Put them in front of a 4th line that can't get the puck out of the zone or create offense and they're going to hemmohrage scoring chances against. Staal taking away the other team's most dominant puck possession / scoring lines has been a huge factor in the success of Crosby and Malkin. Fortunately Sutter can step into that role and I believe will perform admirably there.

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Perhaps, but investing in your defense is critical to building a winning team, much moreso than having a great third pivot.
But it's not invest in defense vs invest in 3rd line pivot. It's invest in top 4 defenseman vs invest in 3rd line pivot. Quite a large difference when you phrase it appropriately.

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They also did well with Malkin out along with Crosby. Yet when all three were together they got embarrassed by Mon then Philly.

So maybe this team doesn't need three star centers to be effective?
You should probably acknowledge that Staal was probably the only Penguin who shouldn't feel embarrassed after the Philly series.

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We have no idea who can be acquired in a trade, but I know Shero has the assets and the cap space to make some significant moves to improve the team.
We have some solid assets, but I don't know if I see a centerpiece in a deal for one of the young impact players rumored to be on the market. Do you?

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He didn't dump Michalek without having a reason along with a backup plan or two.
That we can agree on.

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06-25-2012, 12:12 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
Phoenix is stacked on D with Gormley, Connor Murphy, Ekman-Larsson, Rundblad. I guarantee you that if they trade Yandle, it's going to be for an elite #1 centre. They've got zero interest in a guy like Despres in a deal. They're looking for forwards, not D.
True. But I could see Anaheim being interested.

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06-25-2012, 12:30 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
True. But I could see Anaheim being interested.
They'll certainly be attracted to an offer involving Despres. But they would have to want a significant forward piece coming back as well. Bennett, TK, Tangradi aren't gonna cut it.

Agreed though that Despres will most likely be the piece that gets us a big name if the team needs match up right.

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06-25-2012, 12:36 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
How many true checking lines can you even name? Unless you consider lines with players like Kesler, Richards, and Bergeron 'checking lines', which I don't because they are also scoring lines, who are you talking about? I seriously doubt you can name but a handful of teams that employ their third liners to face the opposition's most talented offensive players. It just doesn't happen like it used to.
Why do you talk in absolutes? Third line = checking line? Richards, Bergeron, Kesler lines = scoring lines?

Their roles and assignments can change from game to game, series to series. This isn't some new style of hockey that just came about after the lockout.

Ron Francis and his line would flip flop constantly between a checking and scoring line, yet he didn't play much as a third pivot.

Not sure why you only equate third liners with a checking line. Odd.

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I assume you mean Bylsma
Yep, changed it right before you posted. Shero is on my mind for obvious reasons.

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and absolutely they did - at least when they didn't have last change. Are you seriously claiming that Staal didn't affect the matchups Sid and Geno got? FFS you saw it almost every game. You also saw it on display in the Flyers series where Giroux played against Staal on the road and Crosby at home. I don't understand why we're even debating this.
You again spoke in absolutes. Staal's presence could only control the matchups to a certain degree. Stating that Staal always kept the tougher assignments away from Crosby and Malkin is total BS. And he most certainly didn't control the pivotal blueline matchups.

The fact is, if Staal is there or not, teams will do everything in their power to get their top checking line and best pairings agt C/M. No coach in his right mind would allow those two to exploit weaker matchups.

Furthermore, BS will more than likely draw Staal's old assignments, which makes the entire argument a moot point.

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They're both extremely critical matchups. I don't care how good Weber and Suter are. Put them in front of a 4th line that can't get the puck out of the zone or create offense and they're going to hemmohrage scoring chances against. Staal taking away the other team's most dominant puck possession / scoring lines has been a huge factor in the success of Crosby and Malkin. Fortunately Sutter can step into that role and I believe will perform admirably there.
You are making my case for me. As I said, no coach will let Crosby and Malkin exploit a favorable matchup. They will make changes on the fly if need be, they cant afford not to. Exactly how many times do you see a 4th line matched up agt those two? Not too often unless DB can sneak them on quickly.

We both agree BS should fill Staal's checking line role, so I have no idea where your worries stem from.

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But it's not invest in defense vs invest in 3rd line pivot. It's invest in top 4 defenseman vs invest in 3rd line pivot. Quite a large difference when you phrase it appropriately.
So how many GMs would choose the latter over the former?

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You should probably acknowledge that Staal was probably the only Penguin who shouldn't feel embarrassed after the Philly series.
You may want to check how many goals he was on the ice for. He scored some goals, but his defense left a lot to be desired (making it a total team "effort" and one he shouldn't be exonerated from because of his offensive game).

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We have some solid assets, but I don't know if I see a centerpiece in a deal for one of the young impact players rumored to be on the market. Do you?
We never heard Neal or Kunitz were on the market. Besides, they don't need a Bobby Ryan or Rick Nash to be successful. Just a legit top 6 guy or two.

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06-25-2012, 12:42 AM
  #261
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They'll certainly be attracted to an offer involving Despres. But they would have to want a significant forward piece coming back as well. Bennett, TK, Tangradi aren't gonna cut it.

Agreed though that Despres will most likely be the piece that gets us a big name if the team needs match up right.
I hear that from the fanbase, but I don't necessarily agree with it. The Ducks have several very good offensive prospects capable of making NHL impacts shortly (Palmieri, Etem, Holland, Smith-Pelly) and few d-prospects of a similar calibre.

Pair up a couple of our blue-chip defensemen and I think we could generate some second looks.

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06-25-2012, 12:49 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I hear that from the fanbase, but I don't necessarily agree with it. The Ducks have several very good offensive prospects capable of making NHL impacts shortly (Palmieri, Etem, Holland, Smith-Pelly) and few d-prospects of a similar calibre.

Pair up a couple of our blue-chip defensemen and I think we could generate some second looks.
If they can land a young cheap 2C for the future in a trade, I don't see why they wouldn't take it over our offer.

We'll see how it shakes out. As much as I like him being a RHS. I still probably take Parise over him. And if the rumors are true and Sid is campaigning hard for us, I think that's the better route not having to move assets to solve a longterm issue up front.

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06-25-2012, 12:52 AM
  #263
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I'd imagine if you wanted Anaheim to listen to an offer for Ryan it would have to be Despres, Bennett, and a 1st next year at the minimum just based on what Staal got.

I'm sure Philly would probably give a more enticing offer than that. Probably offer someone like Couturier, another top prospect, and a 1st.

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06-25-2012, 03:48 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Why do you talk in absolutes? Third line = checking line? Richards, Bergeron, Kesler lines = scoring lines?

Their roles and assignments can change from game to game, series to series. This isn't some new style of hockey that just came about after the lockout.

Ron Francis and his line would flip flop constantly between a checking and scoring line, yet he didn't play much as a third pivot.

Not sure why you only equate third liners with a checking line. Odd.
I realize they can be both, and that they absolutely are. I just don't consider them a checking line in the sense that their teams are also using them strength on strength. Having Staal allows us to shelter Sid and Geno from at least one bad matchup, whether it be the forward line or the defensive pair. It's almost always the forward line, of course.

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You again spoke in absolutes. Staal's presence could only control the matchups to a certain degree. Stating that Staal always kept the tougher assignments away from Crosby and Malkin is total BS. And he most certainly didn't control the pivotal blueline matchups.
I never once said the word always. That would be impossible. It happened extremely often on home ice, however, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Sid and Geno have dramatically better numbers at home than on the road.

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The fact is, if Staal is there or not, teams will do everything in their power to get their top checking line and best pairings agt C/M. No coach in his right mind would allow those two to exploit weaker matchups.
When you don't have last change AND have both Crosby and Malkin to defend against, those two will absolutely reap the benefits of that. There's only so much coaches can realistically do, try as they might.

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Furthermore, BS will more than likely draw Staal's old assignments, which makes the entire argument a moot point.
Anybody can be given a role. It's how you perform in it that matters. Staal drew those assignments and managed to come out ahead. I'm not sure Sutter can do that quite yet. If he can then we just robbed Carolina blind.

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You are making my case for me. As I said, no coach will let Crosby and Malkin exploit a favorable matchup. They will make changes on the fly if need be, they cant afford not to. Exactly how many times do you see a 4th line matched up agt those two? Not too often unless DB can sneak them on quickly.
It actually happens more than you'd think. But yeah, the majority of that ice time is up against second and third lines - a pretty significant advantage still.

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We both agree BS should fill Staal's checking line role, so I have no idea where your worries stem from.
He'll fill the role, that doesn't mean he'll fill Staal's shoes. And I wouldn't say that I'm worried, it's just about acknowledging Staal's worth to this team.

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So how many GMs would choose the latter over the former?
Seeing as how the third line center in question is Jordan Staal, I'd say all of them.

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You may want to check how many goals he was on the ice for. He scored some goals, but his defense left a lot to be desired (making it a total team "effort" and one he shouldn't be exonerated from because of his offensive game).
Fleury stopping 80% of shots didn't help matters any. In any case, Staal was our best player against the Flyers along with Neal. I certainly wouldn't use that series to make the case that we're better off without him.

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We never heard Neal or Kunitz were on the market. Besides, they don't need a Bobby Ryan or Rick Nash to be successful. Just a legit top 6 guy or two.
Fair point, but Gogo and Whitney were established top 4 offensive defenseman. As much as I like Despres I don't see any team confident enough to trade a big piece of their team if it's centered around him. Perhaps at the deadline after Despres shows more in the NHL.

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06-25-2012, 05:49 AM
  #265
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I am guessing not. Staal light in Sutter, a guy compared to Despres in Dumoilin, and the 8th overall? That is an amazing return, and depending how Pouliot developes worth more than Jordan in any situation, including those where Shero's back was not against the wall.

Thoughts?
I actually think what you said about Jordan's last name has a lot to do with it in one sense. Eric Staal had to be getting frustrated with the departure of a lot of players he has played with over the years (Williams, Ladd, Stillman, Whitney, Cole, etc..). I imagine Eric made it clear to Rutherford because right after the season ended, Rutherford said his top priority was to get someone to play with Eric. While the trade improves the team in the short-term, this was also about keeping Eric happy and wanting to stay in Carolina IMO.

For that reason and because Rutherford isn't really a cut-throat GM, (as Canes poster Bleedgreen mentioned a few times in the pre-trade threads on the trade-board), he over-paid to get the guy he wanted.

For me, Sutter and the #8 for Jordan would have been a fair trade given all the circumstances. IMO, adding Dumoulin makes it an overpayment on the Canes part, but I'm not surprised by it based on how Rutherford operates. I actually think Dumoulin is the guy who the Canes will miss most 5 years from now when you look back on this trade. Losing Sutter hurts, but getting Jordan back makes up for that and then some. No way to know who Carolina would have picked at #8 and how he would work out. But I see Dumoulin being a shutdown top 4 guy for years to come and the type of defender the Canes don't have in their system.

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06-25-2012, 07:00 AM
  #266
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Canes can probably thank the Rangers for forcing them to overpay a bit (according to Dreger). I don't know that it's overpayment. Depends how the prospects pan out. I think the Canes got the best player in the deal. That usually is what wins a deal.

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06-25-2012, 07:19 AM
  #267
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Canes can probably thank the Rangers for forcing them to overpay a bit (according to Dreger). I don't know that it's overpayment. Depends how the prospects pan out. I think the Canes got the best player in the deal. That usually is what wins a deal.
Yeah, that's true. But at least in the case of Sutter, he isn't an unknown like many other trades (Kessel for draft picks, Richards for young players/prospects, etc...). Even if he tops out as a 40 point, 3rd line, shutdown center, you know what you got in him (and he could end up being more than that). Even Dumoulin IMO isn't much of a risk because he's older and we've seen his development in 3 years at BC. I think worst case is he's an effective 4-5 defenseman in this league for a long time.

In the end, I think both teams might end up winning this deal. Pitts got a very good return for a guy they were unlikely to be able to keep after next year and the Canes upgraded their line-up and kept their star player happy. I still think if just look in terms of overall value, in the long run the Pens got the better end of it, but Canes probably needed to make a move like this to keep Eric in the fold as well.

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06-25-2012, 07:42 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
I realize they can be both, and that they absolutely are. I just don't consider them a checking line in the sense that their teams are also using them strength on strength. Having Staal allows us to shelter Sid and Geno from at least one bad matchup, whether it be the forward line or the defensive pair. It's almost always the forward line, of course.
Well as we both agreed, BS can fulfill that role as well.

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I never once said the word always. That would be impossible. It happened extremely often on home ice, however, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Sid and Geno have dramatically better numbers at home than on the road.
That isn't a stat I am aware of, but I've always felt both Crosby and Malkin play very well on the road.

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When you don't have last change AND have both Crosby and Malkin to defend against, those two will absolutely reap the benefits of that. There's only so much coaches can realistically do, try as they might.
Of course, but the best coaches know how to manipulate matchups in their favor on the road (Bowman in particular was a master at this). It goes without saying that the deeper you get into the playoffs, the more elite the coaching becomes. If your coach can't manipulate matchups without the last change, your team isn't going very far.

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Anybody can be given a role. It's how you perform in it that matters. Staal drew those assignments and managed to come out ahead. I'm not sure Sutter can do that quite yet. If he can then we just robbed Carolina blind.
I have yet to read anything negative about him that makes me think he can't play a shutdown role. So why not view the glass as half full until otherwise proven wrong?

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It actually happens more than you'd think. But yeah, the majority of that ice time is up against second and third lines - a pretty significant advantage still.
Perhaps agt avg coaching in the regular season, but the best coaches in the league will severely limit how often a 4th line is out agt Crosby and Malkin (unless he prefers coaching elsewhere).

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He'll fill the role, that doesn't mean he'll fill Staal's shoes. And I wouldn't say that I'm worried, it's just about acknowledging Staal's worth to this team.
I think we have both acknowledged Staal's worth. However, this team will not be lost at sea without him. He isn't Malkin or Crosby.

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Seeing as how the third line center in question is Jordan Staal, I'd say all of them.
As I said this was a discussion moving fwd, really. I can easily see the point of Staal's value to the team throughout his current contract, but now it is time to move on.

So if you give said GMs both Crosby and Malkin, then the scenario of having to sign Staal to a 6m+ deal, I think many would feel it is best to start building around Crosby and Malkin, while moving Staal for assets.

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Fleury stopping 80% of shots didn't help matters any. In any case, Staal was our best player against the Flyers along with Neal. I certainly wouldn't use that series to make the case that we're better off without him.
Well I didn't use the Flyer series as a case to say the team is better off without him. I said he deserves blame just like his teammates for atrocious coverage in his own end. He blew a ton of assignments that lead to goals, which isn't something he normally does. The tape doesn't lie.

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Fair point, but Gogo and Whitney were established top 4 offensive defenseman. As much as I like Despres I don't see any team confident enough to trade a big piece of their team if it's centered around him. Perhaps at the deadline after Despres shows more in the NHL.
A team may be willing to trade a fwd prospect who is NHL ready for Despres, or as I said, a good, but not elite top six guy. We simply have no clue who Shero can grab, but he has the assets and cap space, so I prefer to look at that as a big positive.

Maybe he drops the ball, but I look at the unlimited possibilities he has now to improve the team and I feel confident Shero will make the right moves to improve this team over last season.


Last edited by Mr Jiggyfly: 06-25-2012 at 08:13 AM.
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06-25-2012, 07:52 AM
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I'd imagine if you wanted Anaheim to listen to an offer for Ryan it would have to be Despres, Bennett, and a 1st next year at the minimum just based on what Staal got.

I'm sure Philly would probably give a more enticing offer than that. Probably offer someone like Couturier, another top prospect, and a 1st.
You would have to think that the Ducks still like Kunitz and now his contract looks more friendly. I would at least try Kunitz, Despres and a 2nd.

The Ducks fill that hole on LW back up, add a future tope 4 D and get a nice pick in a pretty deep draft next year.

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06-25-2012, 07:54 AM
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In short term, Canes got a little better deal. In long term, if Dumoulin and Pouliot pan out, Pens win this deal.

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06-25-2012, 07:55 AM
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You would have to think that the Ducks still like Kunitz and now his contract looks more friendly. I would at least try Kunitz, Despres and a 2nd.

The Ducks fill that hole on LW back up, add a future tope 4 D and get a nice pick in a pretty deep draft next year.
That's not a bad deal, probably add another prospect or pick. I won't mind to give up Kunitz especially for Ryan.

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06-25-2012, 08:03 AM
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I am totally on Jiggy's side on this one.

Malks4TopWings: I know from past experience that you (also) like advanced stats. Do try and look up Sutter's. He played overwhelmingly the toughest competition of any forward on that team, and was the only regular with a higher QOC (and CORSI Rel. QOC) than Tim Gleason. Jordan has never drawn as consistently tough matchups as Brandon Sutter did last year. That is of course because opponents will reserve a lot of their strenght for Sid/Geno, but just the same.

He ended up a -3 on a -30 team. Sutter will/should draw every bit as tough opposition as Staal did, and while there isn't the same scoring upside, we are still talking about a very significant salary difference both next season and more so going forward - a difference that can be committed to making our REAL stars that much more lethal (and like I have said before Staal is not among them, we are a Sid plus Geno team. Sid+Geno+Letang if you want to stretch it) - and/or bolster the D some more.

I'll have no grievances about not seeing Staal there. We still have one of the best 3rd line C's in the league, and it is up to Shero and Bylsma to make sure that we bring the cap-room to bear in a positive fashion.

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06-25-2012, 08:06 AM
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That's not a bad deal, probably add another prospect or pick. I won't mind to give up Kunitz especially for Ryan.
Love Kunny but the Pens badly need skill on wing. Ryan adds a puck heavy player with elite hands.

The Pens can preach being a puck possession team all they want but when that winger gets the headman pass out of the defensive zone it seems like his only play is to dump it into the corner and go get it again. I like that the Pens work the end boards but there are times, like the Bolts series, that the Pens need to carry pucks into the corners and make plays from there... and they just don't. The skills not there on wing and its needed already.

The Pens treat wingers like the arms that feed the mouth. The thing is that these arms have no hands.

I'll have to stop posting now because I'm starting with Brooksisms...

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06-25-2012, 09:47 AM
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Once Sutter gets in the lineup, I guarantee the Penguins faithful will be amazed at just how little drop-off there is from Staal --> Sutter. When you factor in the $2M in savings, it makes this deal that much sweeter.

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06-25-2012, 09:50 AM
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Not expecting much drop off in the 3rd line C role. It's when/if Crosby or Malkin go down and Sutter has to be a top 2 line C that worries me. He hasn't shown much ability to handle that in his career. Staal handled it well last season.

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