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06-25-2012, 05:03 AM
  #51
Herby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richie10 View Post
Some of the revisionist history and back patting in this thread is comical. If Burke "lucked" into his Cup win in Anaheim, so did Lombardi.

Ask yourselves this: does the shrewd Lombardi we saw operate for years under a frustratingly rigid philosophy make that Carter trade if the Kings were in a better position? No way. The Carter trade was a reactionary move from a desperate GM. Nothing more. Daryl Sutter had sparked the team to a bunch of OT/SO losses, followed by another big losing streak. This all culminated in the Carter trade, not the machinations of a mastermind GM waiting for the perfect trade.

The stars aligned for the team this season. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Lombardi was by no means perfect. Give him credit for managing his cap well enough to take on a player like Carter at the right time. But also consider that losing out on Drury, Gaborik, Hossa, Kovalchuk, and Richards turned out to be just as "lucky" as anything Burke did.

The Kessel trade will be debated for decades. At this point, Seguin and Hamilton are nowhere near the caliber of player as Phil Kessel. Burke has made some head scratching decisions, sure, and I am by no means a fan of any former Duck. But let's try to keep some perspective when vilifying Burke and praising Deano.

If anything, let's criticize Burke for his draft this year. He should have drafted one of the bluechip centers still available, not Reilly. But flipping Luke Schenn for JVR is looking terribly lopsided in Toronto's favor right now. JVR can also play center, and not just as a fill in. If Burke can finalize a deal for Luongo then things will get pretty interesting in Leaf Nation next season. They still lack a true number one two way defenseman, but Reilly could eventually become that guy.

Anyway, meandering semi-rant aside, yes, Toronto doesn't have players of Kopitar, Doughty, and Quick's caliber. But they're not in a terrible position. Things can definitely turn around under Burke's watch, especially with Carlye in the mix now teaching those guys how to play defense.
Good post.

When discussing luck, and the managing of the cap lets also not forget to mention the Kings don't win the Stanley Cup (or even make the playoffs) if Ryan Smyth is still on the roster. Ultimately Lombardi does deserve the credit for putting this team together and they won, that's all that matters, but had Smyth not been greedy, there is no Carter, there is no Fraser and there is no Stanley Cup, that is a fact that can't be argued. The Smyth trade with Colorado was way worse than the Kessel trade because it legitimately would have cost the Kings the 2012 Stanley Cup had he played out the entire three years. He was awful, his cap hit was horrendous and had he not wanted out the cap hit was untradeable and he could not have been buried in Manchester, you want to talk about luck. Smyth wanting out was lucky and the Kings parlayed it into a championship. But without question Lombardi's worst transaction as Kings GM, and we should be thankful how it played out.

Agree on JVR also. That is a wonderful trade. Schenn is a limited player, he doesn't have nearly the upside JVR. I think this will be a homerun for Toronto.

I like where Toronto is going. They still need a goaltender but the defense is coming around and if they can sign Schultz suddenly their D looks pretty good going forward with Phaneuf, Reilly, Schultz and Gardiner.

Toronto made some awful moves before Burke came on board. Imagine if they still have Rask or took Myers or Karlsson over Schenn. He truly did inherit an empty cupboard.

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06-25-2012, 07:56 AM
  #52
RAZZIE King
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Well, he's missing a few pieces:

1) A two-way #1 Center with size and skill

2) A two-way #2 center with grit/determination

3) An elite defensman who can eat tons of minutes.

4) An elite goalie.


They seem to have decent wingers and grinders in the bottom 6.
They seem to also miss a power play coach... I hear Kompon's available...

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06-25-2012, 08:50 AM
  #53
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good luck for that is so true. i think The Leafs don't have any centers that are even close to the level of Kopitar or Richards. Kessel and Lupul is their version of Carter and Williams, but they don't have a power forward that is anything like Dustin Brown. i think this the true.but they need luck.

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06-25-2012, 09:16 AM
  #54
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Hello Herby...

Good Points Herb...

However Smyth is such a two sided coin, he taught our young forwards so so much! Going to the net being aggressive on rebounds, tip in's & Leadership!!!
These are all things that Smitty excelled at. He was good his first year here as well a real boost to the team.

So for all he did bring I am thankful to him and DL for that trade! I think we are a much better team today for it...
Hopefully RS has a similar effect on the ladds in Edminton, as I really like their young core of forwards!

Meanwhile back on topic, I am such not a fan of Burke cept when he is being funny, usually when he is being serious which is most of the time!
And as for Carlise, I cannot stand him and think that he teaches a dirt ball cheap shot system! yuck!
I think the Leafs deserve better, but all my opinions aside they could be an improving franchise over the next couple years with the rescent draft and trade etc...


Last edited by Randart: 06-25-2012 at 09:22 AM.
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06-25-2012, 09:52 AM
  #55
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I disagree 100%. They gave up more for Kessel than what they would have given up if they signed him to an offer sheet. Maybe Boston would've matched it or something.
Sorry, this is just not true. At the time Kessel's contract was signed, the comp for an offer sheet was equal to the trade. And Boston wanted Kessel out; that's why they traded him.

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06-25-2012, 09:54 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Richie10 View Post
The Kessel trade will be debated for decades. At this point, Seguin and Hamilton are nowhere near the caliber of player as Phil Kessel. Burke has made some head scratching decisions, sure, and I am by no means a fan of any former Duck. But let's try to keep some perspective when vilifying Burke and praising Deano.
You sure about that? I'd honestly almost have Seguin at this point over Kessel. Kid led the Bruins in scoring and looks like he's gonna be a really good two-way forward. Reminds me alot of Kopitar in his hockey sense. Kessel scores goals, and not much else other than that. If I'm the Bruins I take Seguin, Knight, and Hamilton and walk away laughing...

I think Burke has been decent in Toronto, but he clearly isn't the savior that a lot of the Canadian media made him out to be. In fact the argument could be made that he isn't really a great GM. I mean yeah he brought in the Sedins, and Kesler while in Vancouver but that team still hasn't won anything despite the stacked roster they've had. He walked into a great situation in Anaheim and really had to make small moves to put the _ucks over the top. Toronto is really in the exact same position they were in before Burke, and there's no sign of it improving anytime soon. Toronto to me needs to figure out what the plan is, they aren't rebuilding, but they aren't making moves to really improve their current roster and core either. They are jsut kind of hanging out in limbo while trading picks for players that aren't an improvement on what they have. Most have been lateral moves at best...

Your points regarding Dean are very valid though and I agree with that.

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06-25-2012, 10:37 AM
  #57
Jason Lewis
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They missed the boat when hiring Carlyle over TeMu

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06-25-2012, 11:01 AM
  #58
Butch 19
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Originally Posted by LA Kings Drummer View Post
Our "panic move" won us a cup while some thought it was Deano's last as the Kings GM.

Just some food for thought folks, nobody thought this rebuild was even close to finished in March so some of you should really stop thumping your chests.
agree - but they picked it up at the right time (obviously).

After the Vancouver series, I was totally excited to see what this team can do next season. It all seemed to fall into place, they were playing the most dominating hockey I've EVER seen by a Kings team.

They could have lost to StL and I'd still be excited for next season - winning the Stanley Cup was just the icing on the cake.

Some icing, huh? - before the best summer EVER!! Winning the last game of the NHL season is still just awesome!! I'm still in somewhat disbelief about the whole thing.

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06-25-2012, 11:17 AM
  #59
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Some icing, huh? - before the best summer EVER!! Winning the last game of the NHL season is still just awesome!! I'm still in somewhat disbelief about the whole thing.
Nooooooo kidding...

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06-25-2012, 12:21 PM
  #60
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I don't understand the need to try and denigrate the rebuild referring to "nobody thought this rebuild was even close to finished in March", when trying to compare the Leafs situation. I understand that feelings are fluid like the ebb and flow of suckage throughout the season, but MANY experts thought the rebuild was close to being finished prior to the season. I have a 10/1 Vegas betting slip that I placed in August 2011 that says so. Oddsmakers and experts alike thought the Kings were close. And guess what? They were!

You honestly think that the addition of a winger and a new head coach turns a team not close to a 16-4 ass whooping Stanley Cup champion? If it were only that easy. They traded for Jeff Carter, not Gordie Howe. Hired Sutter, not Scotty Bowman. Fine acquisition and hiring, but not earth-shattering. The point is, they underachieved for 60 games, but the personnel was talented. DL acquired the missing ingredient in Carter and hired the right Chef in Sutter to put it all together. You can't make chicken soup out of chicken ****. Now, on topic...can you say that Toronto is in a similar situation? I can't. Nobody even thought they were going to make the playoffs.

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06-25-2012, 12:21 PM
  #61
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well the leafs organization didn't expect the team to finish 2nd to last in 2009 lol

Was at vegas yesterday and spoke to a few leafs fans. They said the only reason they didn't make the playoffs was because of the coaching change. They like Caryle but he transformed their entire style of play. Can anyone confirm this? I didn't get the opportunity to watch a lot of Leafs games this year.

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06-25-2012, 12:56 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by DaAnimal View Post
well the leafs organization didn't expect the team to finish 2nd to last in 2009 lol

Was at vegas yesterday and spoke to a few leafs fans. They said the only reason they didn't make the playoffs was because of the coaching change. They like Caryle but he transformed their entire style of play. Can anyone confirm this? I didn't get the opportunity to watch a lot of Leafs games this year.
They went from merely sucking a little (aka fringe playoff team in the East) to sucking a lot.

Wilson rolls 4 lines, new coach likes 3 lines plus specialists on the 4th (ie, PK guy, PP guy, etc). Problem is, not enough talent on the top lines to make this work, and not enough specialists to make a complete 4th line. Basically, it was a mismatch of coach and roster.

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06-25-2012, 01:35 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by DaAnimal View Post
well the leafs organization didn't expect the team to finish 2nd to last in 2009 lol

Was at vegas yesterday and spoke to a few leafs fans. They said the only reason they didn't make the playoffs was because of the coaching change. They like Caryle but he transformed their entire style of play. Can anyone confirm this? I didn't get the opportunity to watch a lot of Leafs games this year.
Most leaf fans I talk to more so blame the fact their tenders could not stop a puck.
I like aggresive GM's, they make things interesting. Look at Holmgran in Philley he is constantly moving big pieces to get big pieces. I do not think that RIchards and Carter would have won the flyers the cup this year (they were our second line, where as they were their first line), so trading them for more depth was a hard but smart move. Sherro in Pittsburgh pulled off two trades at the draft that freed up some cap space and added depth to their prospect pool. It is believed that thye will now go hard at Sutter. These two show how it can be done right.
I believe the rask for Raycroft deal was pre-burke so I don't think we can blame him for that.

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06-25-2012, 01:41 PM
  #64
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Nooooooo kidding...
That makes about 250,000 of us.

Its so awesome too, there was no question who the best team in the league was last season.

Still hasn't really sink in yet for me and I don't know if it ever really will.

And yeah, this has been the best summer ever for me so far.

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06-25-2012, 01:49 PM
  #65
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Lombardi was completely responsible for having the assets to make the Carter deal and he's been trying to get a scorer like Carter for years.

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06-25-2012, 09:53 PM
  #66
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Lombardi was completely responsible for having the assets to make the Carter deal and he's been trying to get a scorer like Carter for years.
Especially after it was confirmed after almost 2 seasons that Dustin Penner was not that scorer.

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06-26-2012, 12:19 AM
  #67
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I'm late to the party here, not paying that much attention to Eastern rosters, but someone HAS made the joke about making the Kessel trade "in less than 12 PARSEcs", right?

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06-26-2012, 01:11 AM
  #68
Stupid Sexy Flanders
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Originally Posted by cyclones22 View Post
I don't understand the need to try and denigrate the rebuild referring to "nobody thought this rebuild was even close to finished in March", when trying to compare the Leafs situation. I understand that feelings are fluid like the ebb and flow of suckage throughout the season, but MANY experts thought the rebuild was close to being finished prior to the season. I have a 10/1 Vegas betting slip that I placed in August 2011 that says so. Oddsmakers and experts alike thought the Kings were close. And guess what? They were!
Yeah I think one of the lessons is: rebuilds (when done properly) accelerate really fast at the end. I bet you can find other examples in history,

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06-26-2012, 08:22 AM
  #69
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Yeah I think one of the lessons is: rebuilds (when done properly) accelerate really fast at the end. I bet you can find other examples in history,
Chicago, and Pittsburgh, were both I think a year or two removed from being low seed playoff finishers and about 3-4 years from being below .500... But yeah if done correctly, a rebuild accelerates very quickly when it works. Problem is when it doesn't work it leaves a team in shambles since all it's good prospects are in the NHL and the team still isn't winning. Look at how many rebuilds Florida, and Atlanta went through in the late 1990's and the 2000's with little to no success.

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06-26-2012, 09:39 AM
  #70
Ron
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That makes about 250,000 of us.

Its so awesome too, there was no question who the best team in the league was last season.

Still hasn't really sink in yet for me and I don't know if it ever really will.

And yeah, this has been the best summer ever for me so far.
It was a great run and actually a great historical run, and that historical run is not getting a whole lot of play for some reason.

Some records were set in this series that will seriously stand the test of time. Road playoff wins, every series starting out 3-0, never trailing or tied in a series in wins (except for 0-0 ), goalie GAA and save percentage in the modern era, just to name some off the top of my head.

I don't care about the 8th seed winning the first cup, to me that is overstated. Any team in the top 8 in the WC could have been an eight seed. The WC is stacked with outstanding teams.

I think they were also the only the second team to 15-2 as well. Just an incredible, dream-like run, and I think that most of still haven't woken up. I know I haven't.

I would like to do some research to see how far back some of the actual records go, but its a lot of work and I don't have time right now. Since no one else is doing it, if I can find the time, I will post it in a new thread.

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06-26-2012, 10:43 AM
  #71
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I think they were also the only the second team to 15-2 as well.
1988 Oilers were the only other team to do it... Yeah THOSE Oilers... Pretty amazing when you think about what the Kings did this playoffs has really only been done in the prime of the Oilers dynasty.

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06-27-2012, 05:09 PM
  #72
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Toronto just seems like it be a very difficult place to rebuild because of their fan base (at least thats thr vibe i get from their boards) so it seems like doing a true rebuilding process thag was done jere would be really difficult to pull off. Id hate to have that job

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06-27-2012, 05:10 PM
  #73
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Toronto just seems like it be a very difficult place to rebuild because of their fan base (at least thats thr vibe i get from their boards) so it seems like doing a true rebuilding process thag was done jere would be really difficult to pull off. Id hate to have that job
Sorry for all the **** ups with spelling. Im doing this from my phone haha

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06-27-2012, 05:10 PM
  #74
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Freaking eh, I hope not! I don't want to think that the next time LA wins the Cup will be in 2067. Yikes!

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06-27-2012, 05:16 PM
  #75
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well the leafs organization didn't expect the team to finish 2nd to last in 2009 lol

Was at vegas yesterday and spoke to a few leafs fans. They said the only reason they didn't make the playoffs was because of the coaching change.
They're delusional.

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