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06-25-2012, 10:50 AM
  #101
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At first blush, it sure seems like a good trade.
Staal - 24 years old. Career high 25G-25A-50Pts
For
Sutter - 23 years old. Career high 21G-19A-40Pts
Defensive prospect. Top 10 Pick

My guess is sutter won't cost $5-6M a year like Staal either.

Regardless, I'm not saying Shero is better than Holland.
I am saying that it was the kind of aggressive move that Holland doesn't make anymore.

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06-25-2012, 10:59 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
At first blush, it sure seems like a good trade.
Staal - 24 years old. Career high 25G-25A-50Pts
For
Sutter - 23 years old. Career high 21G-19A-40Pts
Defensive prospect. Top 10 Pick

My guess is sutter won't cost $5-6M a year like Staal either.

Regardless, I'm not saying Shero is better than Holland.
I am saying that it was the kind of aggressive move that Holland doesn't make anymore.
I wouldnt compare Shero to Holland as Holland doesnt have the luxury of fielding high 1st round picks throughout his lineup that he could then flip in pretty sizable deals (Goligoski into Neal, J.Staal into a mother load of cheap talent, etc). He also had the fortunate business of inheriting a team that featured the two best players in the world.

Basically, the Penguins sucked for a looooong time to be in the position they are today with the assets they have today. Good for them.

The only comparable Detroit/Holland has is New Jersey/Lamoriello and even then the comparable is a stretch because NJ has had serious down years. One of them landed them Larsson.

Wings just havent sucked. They dont have high-end prospects tearing it up to be bait or to replace current roster players. They dont have super-young NHL roster players who are attractive to teams looking to deal established talent (like J.Staal).

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06-25-2012, 11:02 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
At first blush, it sure seems like a good trade.
Staal - 24 years old. Career high 25G-25A-50Pts
For
Sutter - 23 years old. Career high 21G-19A-40Pts
Defensive prospect. Top 10 Pick

My guess is sutter won't cost $5-6M a year like Staal either.

Regardless, I'm not saying Shero is better than Holland.
I am saying that it was the kind of aggressive move that Holland doesn't make anymore.
Can you name a comparable situation that Holland had to make such a trade? Not very often you have a second line center centering the 3rd line with the best centers in the league as 1 and 2.

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06-25-2012, 11:19 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by DarkReign View Post
I wouldnt compare Shero to Holland as Holland doesnt have the luxury of fielding high 1st round picks throughout his lineup that he could then flip in pretty sizable deals (Goligoski into Neal, J.Staal into a mother load of cheap talent, etc). He also had the fortunate business of inheriting a team that featured the two best players in the world.

Basically, the Penguins sucked for a looooong time to be in the position they are today with the assets they have today. Good for them.

The only comparable Detroit/Holland has is New Jersey/Lamoriello and even then the comparable is a stretch because NJ has had serious down years. One of them landed them Larsson.

Wings just havent sucked. They dont have high-end prospects tearing it up to be bait or to replace current roster players. They dont have super-young NHL roster players who are attractive to teams looking to deal established talent (like J.Staal).
In point of fact early in his tenure Holland did inherit a team with tons of top end talent and he turned Primeau (second center unhappy on the third) a former top pick into Shanahan. So he can do this move and has, but since he has done a good job staying successful for the next 15 years it isn't really currently an option.

Shero hasn't had to adapt yet, but he seems to be doing a good job much like Kenny already has. Even though it seems unlikely Shero could really fall apart now or fumble the development of guys by overloading on D. I don't know we are pretty early in his strategy to tell, but this would be his first decent overhaul.

Holland has made three pretty big overhauls/transitions. His first year with the team, the 2002 summer bonanza of happy Wings spending and hall of fame acquisitions for which he will never get credit and be labeled like the Yankees and the post lockout transition. He seems to be queuing up a forth. Some look more aggressive than others, but I think people around here are underestimating just how impressive that is.

The other thing is the prospects they do get are kept in house and taught to sign for less. They are developed meticulously and aren't always physically the kind of guys you want or get chased for big deals. But see the return Kenny got for Primeau he actually got the best player in the deal, Shero did not and that is a very similar position.

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06-25-2012, 11:19 AM
  #105
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I'm more than willing to give Shero credit for the trade. He got great value. But you judge a player on one year, a coach on 2-4 years and a GM on a decade. Shero still needs to prove that he can maintain for the future. If he can, he is right there at the top.

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06-25-2012, 11:52 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
Can you name a comparable situation that Holland had to make such a trade? Not very often you have a second line center centering the 3rd line with the best centers in the league as 1 and 2.
Yep. People use the Staal trade to bash Holland, but the Wings have never been in that good of a position.

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06-25-2012, 12:27 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
Can you name a comparable situation that Holland had to make such a trade? Not very often you have a second line center centering the 3rd line with the best centers in the league as 1 and 2.
Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Filppula comes pretty damn close IMO. Not exactly the same, but very close. Flip didn't show as much offensive upside as Staal at Staal's age, but I think they're pretty comparable players. Flip had a breakout season and I see no reason why he can't keep producing at that pace for a while. Flip has also been easier to negotiate with and played for less, so it isn't like Holland has had to seriously think about moving him like Shero did with Staal.

The best apples for apples comparison here in Detroit was when we had Yzerman, Fedorov and Primeau. Primeau, just like Staal, wanted a bigger role and was not content to play 3rd fiddle. Bowman shopped him for a month, and of course we ended up with Shanahan (a trade that happened, then was called off, then thankfully happened again).

All of that said, this is indeed a pretty rare situation.... But it isn't like Holland has never had a second line or better center that was disposable (Flip).

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06-25-2012, 12:37 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
Can you name a comparable situation that Holland had to make such a trade? Not very often you have a second line center centering the 3rd line with the best centers in the league as 1 and 2.
Well, sure. I can name a comparable situation.

But it doesn't matter if I can or not. Nobody is asking for the exact same deal. What we're asking for is a departure from the recent era of cautious management an era that began when we came back from the lockout with a salary cap.

What we're asking for is Holland to show some moxy.

We don't need every single player live out every last day of his contract.

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06-25-2012, 12:47 PM
  #109
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Well, sure. I can name a comparable situation.

But it doesn't matter if I can or not. Nobody is asking for the exact same deal. What we're asking for is a departure from the recent era of cautious management an era that began when we came back from the lockout with a salary cap.

What we're asking for is Holland to show some moxy.

We don't need every single player live out every last day of his contract.
Moxy? Shero moved him because he had to before his value went down. The guy rejected a 10 freaking year offer.

Good for Shero for getting pieces for the guy, but not many GMs in the league can afford to let go of talent and build up for the future without losing much of a chance at a playoff spot or playoff contention.

How good are the Wings if we unload Stuart last offseason and bring in some prospects and a bottom six defenseman? Or if we trade Filppula for a third line center and a top 15 draft pick?

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06-25-2012, 12:59 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
Moxy? Shero moved him because he had to before his value went down. The guy rejected a 10 freaking year offer.

Good for Shero for getting pieces for the guy, but not many GMs in the league can afford to let go of talent and build up for the future without losing much of a chance at a playoff spot or playoff contention.

How good are the Wings if we unload Stuart last offseason and bring in some prospects and a bottom six defenseman? Or if we trade Filppula for a third line center and a top 15 draft pick?
if by moving filppula you bring in a young player regarded to be as good as filppula plus the 8th overall pick plus a top dmen prospect plus with the extra cap space it allows you to retain sidney crosby, malkin and letang then i would say Holland was a genius and I 100% guarntee you would say the exact same bloody thing.

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06-25-2012, 01:03 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
if by moving filppula you bring in a young player regarded to be as good as filppula plus the 8th overall pick plus a top dmen prospect plus with the extra cap space it allows you to retain sidney crosby, malkin and letang then i would say Holland was a genius and I 100% guarntee you would say the exact same bloody thing.
If you think Filppula would command the same deal (and assume that Sutter is as good as Staal) then you are out of your mind.

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06-25-2012, 01:07 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
If you think Filppula would command the same deal (and assume that Sutter is as good as Staal) then you are out of your mind.
thats not what i am saying

i am saying its an icnredible return for staal AND is a brillant long term move

if Holland were in the same situation with the same guys(crosby, malkin, letang, fleury) and managed to move a guy like filppula(who was redundant given the other talent on the team) for that type of incredible return and free'd up money to keep those superstars together you would be praising him as the second coming of christ himself.

sutter is not as good as staal today but he isconsidered one of the best young 3rd line centres in the league

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06-25-2012, 01:08 PM
  #113
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A little suprised Carolina didnt wait and hope that Staal would be a UFA. Imo he was headed to Carolina after his current contract anyways, they couldve had him and kept Sutter, number 8, etc.

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06-25-2012, 01:10 PM
  #114
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A little suprised Carolina didnt wait and hope that Staal would be a UFA. Imo he was headed to Carolina after his current contract anyways, they couldve had him and kept Sutter, number 8, etc.
what no way, because they're some idiots who think what Shero did was the exact same thing any GM would have done and the return on Staal given the situation that you described was so obvious that any GM with a phone would have gotten as well.

hahaha people really need to learn the game a bit better

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06-25-2012, 01:33 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by doublejack View Post

The best apples for apples comparison here in Detroit was when we had Yzerman, Fedorov and Primeau. Primeau, just like Staal, wanted a bigger role and was not content to play 3rd fiddle. Bowman shopped him for a month, and of course we ended up with Shanahan (a trade that happened, then was called off, then thankfully happened again).

All of that said, this is indeed a pretty rare situation.... But it isn't like Holland has never had a second line or better center that was disposable (Flip).
Scotty lost personnel decisions the season before the trade. Who you are actually talking about is Jim Nill and Holland. So Holland has in fact made this move. I am sure Bowman had some say, but he was not the guy in charge of those decisions and lost the title that went with that before the 96-97 season.

Nill, Holland, and Devellano had that control if I remember correctly.

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06-25-2012, 01:43 PM
  #116
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A little suprised Carolina didnt wait and hope that Staal would be a UFA. Imo he was headed to Carolina after his current contract anyways, they couldve had him and kept Sutter, number 8, etc.
Same here. Even if I did want to trade for Staal rather than wait, I would have balked at the price knowing Staal likely wanted to come to my club in a year regardless.

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06-25-2012, 02:12 PM
  #117
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Yep. People use the Staal trade to bash Holland, but the Wings have never been in that good of a position.
People would have better conversations on the board if they didn't view everything as bashing.

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06-25-2012, 02:14 PM
  #118
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what no way, because they're some idiots who think what Shero did was the exact same thing any GM would have done and the return on Staal given the situation that you described was so obvious that any GM with a phone would have gotten as well.

hahaha people really need to learn the game a bit better
What?

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06-25-2012, 02:16 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
Moxy? Shero moved him because he had to before his value went down. The guy rejected a 10 freaking year offer.

Good for Shero for getting pieces for the guy, but not many GMs in the league can afford to let go of talent and build up for the future without losing much of a chance at a playoff spot or playoff contention.

How good are the Wings if we unload Stuart last offseason and bring in some prospects and a bottom six defenseman? Or if we trade Filppula for a third line center and a top 15 draft pick?

I've articulated my thought.
I think the trade was very good for the Penguins.
I am not saying Shero is better or Holland is better. I am saying I'd like to see a more aggressive Ken Holland.

I am not sure if you are arguing my position or not. It seems like your defending Holland, but I'm not sure what against.

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06-25-2012, 02:18 PM
  #120
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Really? So Shero turning Staal into the 8th overall pick, a bona fide 3rd line center to completely replace Staal's responsibilities immediately and a prospect defensemen who is regarded as one of the best defensemen in college hockey is no big deal and took no real negotiation.

Wow. Just...wow. Shero deserves more gold stars than your sticker sheet came with.



There are only 7 rounds in the draft. That "8th round pick" is actually the 8th overall pick. As in top 10 of the first round this year. A king's ransom for Jordan frickin Staal, a wonderful return by Shero that sets up the franchise for years to come if both prospects pan out, and youre downplaying it.
Yes, I am downplaying it because the other guy is acting like this is a hero deal. Staal is a great player, better than both players going back combined and a first rounder was pretty much expected with it. It's a good deal but it was what you'd expect. How hard is this to understand? As soon as it was clear Staal wanted to go to Carolina, you could see a deal like this coming and if you're to believe some people, Pitt didn't get enough. Contrary to what we irrationally believe, GMs for the most part aren't out to swindle each other. It's easy to get stuck when you burn every bridge once you've crossed it.

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06-25-2012, 02:18 PM
  #121
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What?
read the boards, they're some who feel that the return Shero got was exactly what was expected of him, that anything less would have been embarrassing and that he shouldnt be applauded because anyone could have pulled off the same trade.

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06-25-2012, 02:19 PM
  #122
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People would have better conversations on the board if they didn't view everything as bashing.
Not sure you're the guy to deliver this message.

What other way could we possibly describe your posts on Kronwall?

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06-25-2012, 02:19 PM
  #123
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If you think Filppula would command the same deal (and assume that Sutter is as good as Staal) then you are out of your mind.
Filppula is not as highly regarded as Staal.
But the situations are about as similar as you're going to get. Not many teams have a 1-2-3 punch at center like Crosby-Malkin-Staal. The Wings would be close.

Only a few years ago, when we were having cap trouble, I advocated moving Flip (not because he was bad) for a Winger of equal value, because I saw that if Babs was going to use Datsyuk and Z as centers, we could use Flip to get the scoring line winger we needed.

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06-25-2012, 02:21 PM
  #124
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Yes, I am downplaying it because the other guy is acting like this is a hero deal. Staal is a great player, better than both players going back combined and a first rounder was pretty much expected with it. It's a good deal but it was what you'd expect. How hard is this to understand? As soon as it was clear Staal wanted to go to Carolina, you could see a deal like this coming and if you're to believe some people, Pitt didn't get enough.
ahh ok, so when a soon to be UFA makes it clear that not only will he not resign with his current club but and more importantly only wants to play with one other club, that it puts his GM in a position of leverage over the league

good to know the art of negotiation

please give Gillis in vancouver a phone call would ya as he may wanna bring you on board

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06-25-2012, 02:21 PM
  #125
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Not sure you're the guy to deliver this message.

What other way could we possibly describe your posts on Kronwall?
Nobody is calling Holland a coward. Nobody is saying he's stupid or terrible. I don't find the tenor of this discussion to be anything that really resembles "bashing."

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