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Derrick Pouliot | Defenseman | Portland (WHL) | 1st Round, 8th overall

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Old
06-25-2012, 04:34 AM
  #201
helicecopter
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btw, i guess that was covered already but.. why Pouliot did not attend the U18 Worlds?

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06-25-2012, 06:19 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by sina220 View Post
It doesn't matter. The point is if were really sticking to our team philosophy of tough to play against, or our drafting philosophy of always taking bpa, then trouba was an ideal pick. Which is why I've been so critical of Shero and those who act like we always go bpa, and why I've been so critical of a team thats been pushed around 3 years in a row, ever since its management became obsessed with possession dmen and not dmen who make it tough to play in their end.
1) We haven't gotten pushed around the last few years. The reasons we lost had nothing to do with a lack of physicality, it had to do with how poorly we were playing as a team. Hell, a big reason we sucked against Philly is because we were running out of position being TOO physical.

2) Being hard to play against =/= being big and nasty. Being hard to play against means being hard to play against. Having a bigger defense is just as easy to exploit and dominate as having a more positional and more talented defense. Remember the Detroit Red Wings from a few years back? They were incredibly hard to play against, and i don't recall anyone comparing them to the Broad Street Bullies.

3) We do always go bpa, the Pens just obviously don't consult with you or whoever it is that you get your info from before they decide who their bpa is. If we were drafting for organizational need, we wouldn't have taken a defenseman at all. Forward and Goaltender are much bigger needs in both blue chip skill and overall depth.

4) You talk about management being obsessed with "possession" dmen, and yet our recent high rounder defenseman in Despres, Morrow, Harrington, Pouliot and Maata ... they are all very different from one another in a multitude of ways. But since none of them are Derian Hatcher, you lump them together like they're all the same beast.

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06-25-2012, 07:27 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by helicecopter View Post
btw, i guess that was covered already but.. why Pouliot did not attend the U18 Worlds?
I assume because they were during the WHL playoffs.

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06-25-2012, 07:42 AM
  #204
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I assume because they were during the WHL playoffs.
ahh, my bad, i guess that's the obvious reason. thx

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06-25-2012, 08:08 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
1) We haven't gotten pushed around the last few years. The reasons we lost had nothing to do with a lack of physicality, it had to do with how poorly we were playing as a team. Hell, a big reason we sucked against Philly is because we were running out of position being TOO physical.
We weren't particularly physical, just small and undisciplined. There's a difference .

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Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
2) Being hard to play against =/= being big and nasty. Being hard to play against means being hard to play against. Having a bigger defense is just as easy to exploit and dominate as having a more positional and more talented defense. Remember the Detroit Red Wings from a few years back? They were incredibly hard to play against, and i don't recall anyone comparing them to the Broad Street Bullies.
Perhaps because Brad Stuart, Kronwall, Chelios and Lilja delivered pain while Rafalski was insulated by the best D-man since Orr. Lebda fit in because of his minor role.
They plainly had the right mix, were supremely well coached and talented, and then of course they could still be troubled by Anaheim - and such - playing them hard.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
3) We do always go bpa, the Pens just obviously don't consult with you or whoever it is that you get your info from before they decide who their bpa is. If we were drafting for organizational need, we wouldn't have taken a defenseman at all. Forward and Goaltender are much bigger needs in both blue chip skill and overall depth.
I think stating BPA has been getting religious connotations here. You have different teams with different perspectives on what constitutes the best player available.
Drafting is not an exact science but if we habitually (and I am not saying I disagree with it in principle) draft D-men first, then it is also because the ones who decide our picks are skewed towards them. Arguably even a certain type of D-men. On other teams you will find different tendencies and they will also say that they pick BPA. It is in the eye of the beholder.

BPA to some extent is something you say to validate what you do/confirm your won bias. We all have blind spots. You cannot tell me that our preference for drafting players from teams where we already have players in the first rounds, with St.Mary or just Minnesota background whatever, is not so much of a statistical aberration, that you have to say we pick BPA within certain confines. The first part of that - that we have player(s) there, is likely more about simply having seen them more times, and thus being more sure. But that doesn't say better - or BPA - that says less risky,
Again - this is not atypical. You could find such patterns on many teams, I am sure.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
4) You talk about management being obsessed with "possession" dmen, and yet our recent high rounder defenseman in Despres, Morrow, Harrington, Pouliot and Maata ... they are all very different from one another in a multitude of ways. But since none of them are Derian Hatcher, you lump them together like they're all the same beast.
If sina is really talking about drafting here, exclusively, then of course it makes no sense. But if you consider the pro-team also, then it certainly is true. We have gotten D-men who fit a certain paradigm (good skaters - more than anything, then big minutes capacity... same thing really), never mind how they complimented what we had. And virtually all of them have been pretty soft. And that has proven a disaster. When you then see that the vast majority of those D-men we draft have that same relative weakness, not that they're all soft, but on the balance you'd like most of them to be more physical, it starts to look like a pattern.

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06-25-2012, 08:32 AM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Vickers View Post
Our take on Pouliot:

More: http://futureconsiderations.ca/pouliot/
Here is what they/you say about Forsberg:

Quote:
Forsberg is the most complete player out of Sweden. He has smarts, powerful skating, excellent two-way skills and nice size, but is not excellent in terms of high-end speed. Forsberg’s skating is solid, he is very agile and has good acceleration. He possesses a great pair of hands, a very good shot and a nose for the net. Forsberg has the hockey sense to be a scoring threat any time the puck is in the offensive end. He is willing to use his size to protect the puck and his impressive strength to battle hard along the wall for pucks. He is a very versatile player that can be your leading scorer, shut down winger, top PP threat and top PK option as well. He does not possess Galchenyuk or Grigorenko’s dazzling hand skills but he shows a sense of knowing what to do with the puck before it even gets to his stick. Defensively he reads the play well, blocking shots, throwing his body around and closing down lanes and comes back deep into his own zone to help out. He also proves to be a threat by picking the puck up and transitioning quickly to offense. He wants the puck on his stick but without it he can find the creases in the offensive zone and is a danger to get open for a prime scoring chance. His game translates very well to the pro level in North America.
And Teravainen:

Quote:
A super skilled offensive player who can create his own scoring chance each time he touches the puck. He is an excellent playmaker with elite passing ability. He has the ability to control the pace of the play, slowing it down and then speeding it up, pushing defenders on their heels. His quick hands are right up there with the Galchenyuk’s and Grigorenko’s of the draft as he can control the puck at breakneck speeds and phone booth-sized space. He does not use his hands to dangle through defenses much but instead controls the puck and backs off defenders with the threat of a quick move. He is smart and able to draw defenders to him before dishing off a calm pass to an open linemate. He has dynamic feet and very good speed, agility and the ability to change direction quickly. His shot is also a weapon, not because it is very hard or strong but because it is accurate and very quick off his blade. He is instant offense with strong instincts and positioning. The puck always finds him and once it does, he shows a very creative offensive sense. He can play on the perimeter with his elite passing skills but will also go to the dirty areas and get into scoring position.
Just sayin'.


Last edited by Gustavo Fring: 06-25-2012 at 08:46 AM.
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Old
06-25-2012, 11:56 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by RC24 View Post
Here is what they/you say about Forsberg:



And Teravainen:



Just sayin'.
Reading scouts on Fors, Tera and Grig is just depressing now.

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06-25-2012, 02:30 PM
  #208
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So much hate on here for this kid. I understand you guys wanted a forward with this spot and feel like he has a redundant skillset, but obviously the Pens scouting staff values this kid highly.

Trust them and enjoy the pick. He's clearly very happy to be a part of the organization.

I've watched him extensively and he's a special player and could very well end up being much better than Joe Morrow.

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06-25-2012, 02:38 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Renegade Stylings View Post
So much hate on here for this kid. I understand you guys wanted a forward with this spot and feel like he has a redundant skillset, but obviously the Pens scouting staff values this kid highly.

Trust them and enjoy the pick. He's clearly very happy to be a part of the organization.

I've watched him extensively and he's a special player and could very well end up being much better than Joe Morrow.
High praise.

I agree with you. I just think many here aren't familiar with him yet. The reaction to the Despres, Morrow and Harrington picks were similar and everybody loves them now that they are more familiar with the players and how good they are.

Our fans just have a winger obsession and it clashes with Shero's D-Man obsession.

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06-25-2012, 02:41 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
High praise.

I agree with you. I just think many here aren't familiar with him yet. The reaction to the Despres, Morrow and Harrington picks were similar and everybody loves them now that they are more familiar with the players and how good they are.

Our fans just have a winger obsession and it clashes with Shero's D-Man obsession.
I was going to be perfectly fine with Shero drafting any defenseman at pick #22. When they traded Staal though and got pick #8 with a bunch of good forward prospects still on the board, knowing that defenseman would probably be available at pick #22 and we were already deep there, that's when I didn't like the pick.

It doesn't have as much to do with not liking Pouliot, as it has to do with getting a blue chip forward prospect that this team is seriously lacking.

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06-25-2012, 02:44 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
I was going to be perfectly fine with Shero drafting any defenseman at pick #22. When they traded Staal though and got pick #8 with a bunch of good forward prospects still on the board, knowing that defenseman would probably be available at pick #22 and we were already deep there, that's when I didn't like the pick.

It doesn't have as much to do with not liking Pouliot, as it has to do with getting a blue chip forward prospect that this team is seriously lacking.
I understand. I just don't care about need when it comes to the draft. D-Men are typically worth more than wingers. We can flip them for wingers at some point if we need to. I also trust Shero more when it comes to D-Men than wingers anyway. He has a better track record of hitting on the D-Man picks. I guess that's because he almost only drafts D-Men but still...

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06-25-2012, 02:49 PM
  #212
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Pouliot is a fine prospect. Just not at #8, when Trouba, and Forsberg are available. If you want BPA, you probably go Forsberg (also addresses a need as far as blue-chip forward prospects go), if you want to round out your prospect pool, you take Trouba--because we have nobody like him.

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06-25-2012, 02:50 PM
  #213
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I've definitely warmed up to the pick and actually kind of excited about the kid. It was a pretty big shock to see a winger as highly ranked as Forsberg and passing on him. But that should pretty much say what Shero and everyone see in this kid. He gets very high praises for his offensive and transition game from the back-end, which this team needs in order to thrive. We can complain about Forsberg and Gigs being the best players ever whenever they actually are.

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06-25-2012, 02:54 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk View Post
Pouliot is a fine prospect. Just not at #8, when Trouba, and Forsberg are available. If you want BPA, you probably go Forsberg (also addresses a need as far as blue-chip forward prospects go), if you want to round out your prospect pool, you take Trouba--because we have nobody like him.
But Pouliot was the BPA on their board. They don't use the TSN one.

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06-25-2012, 02:55 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk View Post
Pouliot is a fine prospect. Just not at #8, when Trouba, and Forsberg are available. If you want BPA, you probably go Forsberg (also addresses a need as far as blue-chip forward prospects go), if you want to round out your prospect pool, you take Trouba--because we have nobody like him.
I really don't think Dumoulin is that much of a different player. Trouba could become nothing more than an average defensive defenseman.

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06-25-2012, 03:09 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk View Post
Pouliot is a fine prospect. Just not at #8, when Trouba, and Forsberg are available. If you want BPA, you probably go Forsberg (also addresses a need as far as blue-chip forward prospects go), if you want to round out your prospect pool, you take Trouba--because we have nobody like him.
Except everyone's BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE is different. That's what makes the draft fun and impossible to predict.

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06-25-2012, 03:13 PM
  #217
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I'm not torn up about passing on Trouba, because I don't know if he'll be much more than a Luke Schenn.

Forsberg was gift wrapped to us when he was available at #8. It just seemed too perfect not to pick him. So any disappointment from me is more to do with that, than any actual knock on Pouliot as a player.

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06-25-2012, 03:24 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
I'm not torn up about passing on Trouba, because I don't know if he'll be much more than a Luke Schenn.

Forsberg was gift wrapped to us when he was available at #8. It just seemed too perfect not to pick him. So any disappointment from me is more to do with that, than any actual knock on Pouliot as a player.
same here, I was excited that we could draft a forward who could possibly be in the NHL for the 13-14 NHL season.

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06-25-2012, 03:24 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
I'm not torn up about passing on Trouba, because I don't know if he'll be much more than a Luke Schenn.

Forsberg was gift wrapped to us when he was available at #8. It just seemed too perfect not to pick him. So any disappointment from me is more to do with that, than any actual knock on Pouliot as a player.
Penguins aren't the only ones who passed on Forsberg and I am sure he dropped for a good reason. He won't be crossing the pond for 1-2 years anyway and who knows what will happen by then. You can tell by the other prospects drafted and trades made, Shero is planning on fixing the winger problem. Might as well build an elite defense alongside that.

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06-25-2012, 03:32 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Renegade Stylings View Post
So much hate on here for this kid. I understand you guys wanted a forward with this spot and feel like he has a redundant skillset, but obviously the Pens scouting staff values this kid highly.

Trust them and enjoy the pick. He's clearly very happy to be a part of the organization.

I've watched him extensively and he's a special player and could very well end up being much better than Joe Morrow.
I don't hate him. I figure it's not about who you drafted where, it's about how the develope after the draft. Nothing wrong with this pick, maybe he should have went around 10-15th, but our scouts and Shero have done an EXCELLENT job getting young D prospects. IN SHERO I TRUST!!!

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06-25-2012, 04:03 PM
  #221
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But Pouliot was the BPA on their board. They don't use the TSN one.
I have a feeling he was the guy they were aiming at for their first round pick, hoping he'd reach them, and when they had an opportunity to move up they just took him because he was who they wanted all along. As it's been said, they scouted him heavily all season long.

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06-25-2012, 04:06 PM
  #222
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One can argue about who they should have drafted until they are blue in the face, at the end of the day Shero has obtained some pretty nice wingers by trading these type of defensemen over the years.

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06-25-2012, 04:15 PM
  #223
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMxxV...yer_embedded#!

i so like the goal in that clip. Heads up all the way, good poise, waiting out the defender, pick a spot, wrist it. Shades of gonchar

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06-25-2012, 04:33 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Renegade Stylings View Post
Except everyone's BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE is different. That's what makes the draft fun and impossible to predict.
We'll see I guess in 5 years or so. We can revisit this topic then.

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06-25-2012, 04:41 PM
  #225
Captain Hook
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Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk View Post
I have a feeling he was the guy they were aiming at for their first round pick, hoping he'd reach them, and when they had an opportunity to move up they just took him because he was who they wanted all along. As it's been said, they scouted him heavily all season long.
I agree with you on that in a lot of ways. I think the familiarity with him as a player and the confidence they have in that Portland coaching staff because of the job they've done developing Morrow played a big factor in picking this kid.

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