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06-25-2012, 09:11 PM
  #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bp spec View Post
But otherwise? I agree on that it hurts to give up that much when what we really need is D, but Bobby is a perfect fit here.
Just because nothing else will get it done doesnt justify overpaying significantly for a player.

You simply move on.

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06-25-2012, 09:12 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You don't see a huge difference between a guy scoring 30+ goals in his first four years (one of those years being only 64 games) and a guy topping out at 27 goals in his first three years? The points being 57, 64, 71, 57 vs. 37, 55, and 39 through 60 games. 24 players in the NHL scored at least 31 goals (Ryan's career low). 49 scored between 27 (Neal's high) and 21 (his total when traded). I haven't checked because it would be a lot of time, but but just from eyeballing the list of 31+ goal scorers, at least eight of them HAVE NOT done it four times in their career, let alone in a row. So that leaves 16 players currently in the NHL (at the most, because like I said I didn't check everyone's stats for the past four years) who have scored 31+ goals four times in the last four years. But yeah I guess that's no big deal. A kid who consistently scores in the mid 20s, like all those other players, is about the same.
I only compared the first 2 years because thats all you really have to compare it to. You can't say 39 through 60 and say thats what he had, Pitt traded for him halfway through that year expecting that production to continue he had a rough transition there had he not been traded he most likely would have continued on that pace. Ryans 71 point season he scored 4 more goals then previous years, but its also the same year Perry won MVP and he was on a line with them the majority of that year. And don't tell me he didn't play with them then, because he did. That whole year he averaged almost 21 minutes of ice time without 1st line PP time. Last year he didn't and his numbers returned to what he did the prior 2 seasons. 57 points again. No I don't see the difference I see a good player who will give you between 55 and 60 points and 30 Goals. And When I look at Neal I see the same thing.

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06-25-2012, 09:27 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
I only compared the first 2 years because thats all you really have to compare it to. You can't say 39 through 60 and say thats what he had, Pitt traded for him halfway through that year expecting that production to continue he had a rough transition there had he not been traded he most likely would have continued on that pace. Ryans 71 point season he scored 4 more goals then previous years, but its also the same year Perry won MVP and he was on a line with them the majority of that year. And don't tell me he didn't play with them then, because he did. That whole year he averaged almost 21 minutes of ice time without 1st line PP time. Last year he didn't and his numbers returned to what he did the prior 2 seasons. 57 points again. No I don't see the difference I see a good player who will give you between 55 and 60 points and 30 Goals. And When I look at Neal I see the same thing.
He was traded with 22 games to go, that isn't really anywhere near the half way mark. My main point is guys who score consistently in the mid 20's are not hard to find. Guys who score consistently above 30 are. If you don't believe me try and find out who has scored 30+ four years a row in the last four years. I don't know the numbers exactly, but I'd be willing to bet that it is a very small list. That is why Ryan is more valuable than Neal was.

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06-25-2012, 09:42 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
He was traded with 22 games to go, that isn't really anywhere near the half way mark. My main point is guys who score consistently in the mid 20's are not hard to find. Guys who score consistently above 30 are. If you don't believe me try and find out who has scored 30+ four years a row in the last four years. I don't know the numbers exactly, but I'd be willing to bet that it is a very small list. That is why Ryan is more valuable than Neal was.
Neal has all the makings to do just that. When he got traded really has no bearing on the point, he was traded mid-season, his production fell off and he wasn't abe to learn the new system or play either either of the centers he was there to play with. Neal had 40 goals this year hes not a consistent mid 20's Goalscorer, he had 1 year where he hit 27 (that's 3 from 30) in 78 games. hell his Rookie year he had 24. The next year he was on pace for 30 and was traded. He was also 2 years younger then Ryan is now when he was traded. I'm not even trying to say they are equal in terms of value, I concede Ryan is worth more tehn Neal at that point in his career and never said he wasn't. But there is no way the difference is Goligoski to Voracek + Read + 1st, or Voracek + Mesz + 1st.

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06-25-2012, 09:59 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
I just watched a video of Timmy P on csnPhilly.com and he basically says that the Flyers won't be getting Ryan, Schultz or Parise for various reasons. Sadly the reasons make perfect sense and I have a feeling he's right.

the same moron that said carter wasnt getting moved, you forgot the fact that jake vorteck isnt signed yet, maybe that's a sign he's in trade works for ryan , they are not going to let him go for nothing.

he's probably going with either mez or coburn.

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06-25-2012, 10:02 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
the same moron that said carter wasnt getting moved, you forgot the fact that jake vorteck isnt signed yet, maybe that's a sign he's in trade works for ryan , they are not going to let him go for nothing.

he's probably going with either mez or coburn.
They are talking about Ryan but from what i hear the asking price is too high. They want Schenn or Couturier. Homer isn't going to let them go. Other teams that were interested dropped out of the running for Ryan because of the asking price. Don't be surprised if Ryan is still playing for the Anaheim ducks this year.

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06-25-2012, 10:22 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
They are talking about Ryan but from what i hear the asking price is too high. They want Schenn or Couturier. Homer isn't going to let them go. Other teams that were interested dropped out of the running for Ryan because of the asking price. Don't be surprised if Ryan is still playing for the Anaheim ducks this year.
jagr wont be back, so who else can the flyers get? giroux is going to struggle without a number one line player, jake vorteck isnt the answer either, they got to get someone that's a first line player.

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06-25-2012, 10:32 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
jagr wont be back, so who else can the flyers get? giroux is going to struggle without a number one line player, jake vorteck isnt the answer either, they got to get someone that's a first line player.
He might not be but who is? Semin? Question marks. Parise? He isn't signing here. Lets get real. You have to give up assets to get quality back. That means Schenn or Couts are going if you want that 1st line winger. Coburn might be going if you want that player. Our defense is already questionable. Are you willing to part ways with our most reliable defenseman?

I think its time to just let guys develop. Voracek had a 2nd line type of player year but he quietly was the best player behind Giroux in the playoffs. I honestly think Voracek could become a 1st line winger. Maybe he isn't a shooter but he could very well work out with Hartnell and Giroux. Voracek is very underrated in terms of his potential. His speed and size is something you can't teach. He also is committed to playing on both sides of the rink.

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06-25-2012, 10:47 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by sm0ka47 View Post
I think its time to just let guys develop.
You hit the nail on the head. This team probably needs to take a small step back to take the next bigger step forward. It's clearly shapping up that we're not going to be able to acquire the final pieces we need this offseason. I don't want them to try to overcompensate by making trades ill-suited for our longterm objectives.

I doubt management looks at it that way, but we'll see here in another week or so.

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06-25-2012, 11:17 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
jagr wont be back, so who else can the flyers get? giroux is going to struggle without a number one line player, jake vorteck isnt the answer either, they got to get someone that's a first line player.
Through trades: Stalberg, C. Stewart, Prospal

Through free agents not named Parise: Semin, Kostisyn, Whitney, Jokinen,

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06-26-2012, 12:21 AM
  #361
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Twitter says flyers offered Mez read and 2013 #1 pick then turned around and offered Mez Cousins and 2 #1 picks so far no deal Ducks want B schenn so far flyers say no deal.

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06-26-2012, 12:29 AM
  #362
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Originally Posted by BleedOrange View Post
Twitter says flyers offered Mez read and 2013 #1 pick then turned around and offered Mez Cousins and 2 #1 picks so far no deal Ducks want B schenn so far flyers say no deal.
The hell? I find that the first one is worth more now than the two 1sts... but two ****ing 1sts... really?

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06-26-2012, 12:35 AM
  #363
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Interesting. Reading between all these lines, I must say I like the stance Homer is taking this off season.

I really feel like Ryan's relationship with the Ducks is going to deteriorate quickly. With Parise going to UFA, and Howson misplaying his hand miserably, I really would not be shocked if we acquired Ryan or Nash on the cheap.

The next couple weeks are going to be very interesting. And it appears that all our fan favorites are safe, so there really shouldnt be much to worry about other than potentially overpaying for free agents on July 1st.

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06-26-2012, 12:38 AM
  #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
The hell? I find that the first one is worth more now than the two 1sts... but two ****ing 1sts... really?
The Ducks aren't going to win if they keep being stubborn honestly.

A #3 defenseman, a potential 3rd line center with snarl, and two first round picks?

Come on...

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06-26-2012, 12:47 AM
  #365
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The ducks know now that ryan doesn't want to play in Anaheim anymore, and with the comments he made about their management and his attitude towards the team, theyre in a tough situation. It's also likely that not many other teams will overpay to the ducks standards for Ryan considering he's come out and pretty much plainly said that he wants to be a flyer.

If the ducks aren't willing to accept an offer of Mez, Cousins and 2 1sts then they are dooming themselves in this situation.

I think if homer holds out long enough, he'll be able to get Ryan without giving up schenn.

Should be interesting to see how this unfolds.

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06-26-2012, 12:48 AM
  #366
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Perhaps a 3rd team needs to get in on this. Any thoughts on a 2C that could be swung to the Ducks for Voracek?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BleedOrange View Post
Twitter says flyers offered Mez read and 2013 #1 pick
I'm glad that deal didn't go down. Read's contract is a gigantic asset for us until the Briere and Timonen contracts expire. He shouldn't be included.

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Originally Posted by BleedOrange View Post
then turned around and offered Mez Cousins and 2 #1 picks so far no deal
That's a rich offer, but I could live with this.

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Originally Posted by BleedOrange View Post
Ducks want B schenn so far flyers say no deal.
Go pound sand.

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06-26-2012, 01:03 AM
  #367
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Anaheim wants players who can play now for Ryan. That is why they want Schenn. They dont want a forward who is at least 2 years away and 2 more picks that may be 4 or more years away.
The Flyers are standing firm in not trading Schenn. If they hadnt traded for his brother I would say go ahead and make the deal. Now it would also depend on who else would go but if the Ducks want Schenn and Coburn I tell em to go get ****ed.

Not a fan of Voracek and Coburn in the same deal as well. I really dont know if this is going to get done or not. Both sides are being stubborn right now and rightfully so.
Anther thing that could happen is there could be movement on the Ryan situation after Parise signs whereever.

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06-26-2012, 03:13 AM
  #368
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Read on twitter trade of the schenn brothers for ryan and fowler..

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06-26-2012, 03:19 AM
  #369
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Originally Posted by BleedOrange View Post
Read on twitter trade of the schenn brothers for ryan and fowler..
Who posted that?

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06-26-2012, 03:29 AM
  #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BleedOrange View Post
Read on twitter trade of the schenn brothers for ryan and fowler..
Okay, if you have to twist our arm Anaheim, you can have Schenn. In fact, take both. Want a 1st rounder too? Hell you can have Cousins too!

Just tack on Fowler on the end of Ryan and you have a deal.

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06-26-2012, 03:40 AM
  #371
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Originally Posted by hotshot26 View Post
Who posted that?
I want to see some links to these trades that aren't just speculation.

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06-26-2012, 06:44 AM
  #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
the same moron that said carter wasnt getting moved, you forgot the fact that jake vorteck isnt signed yet, maybe that's a sign he's in trade works for ryan , they are not going to let him go for nothing.

he's probably going with either mez or coburn.
He said the asking price is Schenn or Coots plus, which the Flyers aren't willing to part with. It's also a safe bet that in any trade for Ryan the plus would be a dman and I honestly don't think it's worth it. We would essentially be going into the season with the same d as last year just with Schenn instead of Mez or Coburn (and thats if Carle is re-signed) which is not an upgrade on last year d-corp at all.

Jagr only put up 54 pts last yr. I'm confident jake can do that and more on G's wing, Giroux just needs to shoot more.

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06-26-2012, 07:06 AM
  #373
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Am I the only one who thinks that the names being thrown out there for Ryan are kind of nuts?

I don't want to trade Meszaros. He was injured last year, but lets not lose sight of the fact that he was the team's best defenseman in 2010-2011, and if he's healthy this year he is easily our #3 or #4 defenseman.

I don't want to trade Read. He put up 24 goals in his rookie season, playing 3rd line minutes. And he is also pretty good defensively. He could become fairly complete player.

Trading Coburn is out of the question. Kimmo is getting older, he has definitely lost a step and he looked tired and beaten down in the playoffs, he isn't our #1 Dman any longer. I think if the Flyers had won the cup this year he would have definitely retired. With Pronger's return doubtful (and even if he does return, he is also older and basically lost a year of hockey), Coburn is our #1, like it or not.

I don't want to trade Voracek. He is 22 years old and has loads of talent. If they put him on Giroux's wing, I could easily see 70 points out of him.

Simmonds? Face of the franchise beyond G. No way he is getting trade.

Schenn and Couturier are out of the question. Schenn was the #1 reason we dealt Richards to the Kings. EVERYONE wanted Brayden Schenn, and we got him. Every team in the NHL would take him right now if he was available. Why would we give that up? And Couturier? Obvious reasons- its just really hard to find excellent 2-way forwards with his size. He has Jordan Staal potential.

Truthfully, I don't want to trade any of the aforementioned. They all will have another year of experience, and for some their first playoff run under their belts. I expect them all to improve. There is simply no reason to trade so much for Ryan, regardless of how appealing it is to have him on Giroux's wing. I understand the franchise is hell bent on getting Giroux an elite winger to maximize his talent for the entirety of his prime, but I think you have pieces on the roster that can fit the bill.

In my opinion, asking price for Ryan is waaaay too high. Hopefully the Ducks get stonewalled and have to accept less eventually, and hopefully thats from the Flyers since he wants to play here. Personally I would be going 100% all out on Parise. He is what this team needs, and you dont have to give players up to get him. Take the wasted effort on Ryan and pour it into the Parise sweepstakes. I bet Ryan is still sitting on the block after Parise signs anyway...

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06-26-2012, 07:08 AM
  #374
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People look:

4 Seasons: 131 G, 118 A, 249 P, .81 PPG, 25 years old, Winger.

4 Seasons: 144 G, 120 A, 264 P, .83 PPG, 26 years old, Center.

We traded a a slightly more productive, better defensive version of Bobby Ryan, that plays a more important position, for Voracek and the 8th overall pick.

Any offer made to the Ducks should be less in value than what we got for Carter, especially considering people seem to think it was a fleecing. So you start with a solid roster player, then our 1st rounder, then something else.

Our 1st round pick doesn't have a set value like the 8th overall, and it's likely to be higher, so you have to add to that. You shouldn't add a ton though because there's a chance, from injuries or whatever, that you have a down year.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bp spec View Post
But otherwise? I agree on that it hurts to give up that much when what we really need is D, but Bobby is a perfect fit here.
No I know he fits. I'm just saying I think the price the Flyers are willing to pay for him is too high, let alone what the Ducks seem to want.

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06-26-2012, 07:27 AM
  #375
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I think we should keep our 1st round picks, just in case Shea Weber is made available at the trade deadline and we have some ammo to go get him.

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