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06-26-2012, 02:05 AM
  #226
artilector
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England has had 0 creativity and 0 ability to hold the ball in the midfield for as long as I can remember. And they always play deep in the same old 4-4-2 that makes things even more predictable. So it means that against good teams England has no possession, its midfielders chase the other teams' more skilled players all game, its forwards basically never see the ball. The only solution for them seems to be aggressive play from the flanks, and they seem to have the players for it, but somehow that never materializes.

England has a top league but its system basically does not produce top players when it comes to skill & creativity, never has. If you think about it, it's pretty interesting that Germany, for all its reputation for being pedantic and by-the-book, produces players with more technical skill AND better overall organization AND coaches that can handle more tactical variety..

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06-26-2012, 02:36 AM
  #227
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I think England has plenty of creative players.

Rooney has easily scored one of the best goals in recent history.

Wilshere has a lot of flair. Gerrard is probably the only one that can slice a cross in the way he does from practically midfield.

The problem is they play 4-4-2 and don't have that ball winner type and are easily outplayed in the midfield. They surely need to play a 4-3-3 in the future, so that they aren't so outnumbered in the middle of the pitch. Italy had 4 in there and 2 players arent going to beat 4, they just aren't.

Overall I don't think this tournament is terrible for England in results. Before it started I had them lower on my rankings than I have them now and I think they got the right players some experience and confidence.

Joe Hart also needs to learn to distribute the ball better, the only real weakness in his game.

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06-26-2012, 04:03 AM
  #228
Brad Tolliver
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That's neither plenty nor creative.

Wilshere's their best hope right now and he didn't play a competitive match all season. Rooney doesn't really count and the rest are your typical great at nothing but crosses.

Ball winners are worthless if their only option is to pass it to someone who would lose it right away.

In hockey terms, England is a team full of Brooks Laichs.

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06-26-2012, 08:54 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Brad Tolliver View Post
That's neither plenty nor creative.

Wilshere's their best hope right now and he didn't play a competitive match all season. Rooney doesn't really count and the rest are your typical great at nothing but crosses.

Ball winners are worthless if their only option is to pass it to someone who would lose it right away.

In hockey terms, England is a team full of Brooks Laichs.
Haha, exactly.

Yes, Rooney is the exception that proves the rule, in terms of overall skill. Yes, he is a kind of Ovechkin-light, only he's destined to be forever centered by Laich with another Laich on his wing.

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06-26-2012, 11:08 AM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Brad Tolliver View Post
That's neither plenty nor creative.

Wilshere's their best hope right now and he didn't play a competitive match all season. Rooney doesn't really count and the rest are your typical great at nothing but crosses.

Ball winners are worthless if their only option is to pass it to someone who would lose it right away.

In hockey terms, England is a team full of Brooks Laichs.
Great way to put it! Not only are they a team of Brooks Laichs, they are a team of Brooks Laich's on big ice.
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Originally Posted by artilector
Haha, exactly.

Yes, Rooney is the exception that proves the rule, in terms of overall skill. Yes, he is a kind of Ovechkin-light, only he's destined to be forever centered by Laich with another Laich on his wing.
Ronaldniho = Ovechkin. Absolutely dominant player for several seasons, before getting fat, lazy, and inevitable declining.

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06-26-2012, 11:14 AM
  #231
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England lacks great technical players. English football is built on power and hard work while playing at a very fast pace. You don't develop technical players focusing on what they do. Their inability to hold the ball against Italy was embarrassing and it isn't like Italy are some great pressing side that give you no time on the ball.

Germany went through a period where they stressed pace and power over technique and their football suffered as a result. But they realized their error and changed their development approach quite a bit and the generation they have now speaks for the results.

England can do the same thing but I have my doubts whether they ever will as their mentality is different IMO.

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06-26-2012, 11:41 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
England lacks great technical players. English football is built on power and hard work while playing at a very fast pace. You don't develop technical players focusing on what they do. Their inability to hold the ball against Italy was embarrassing and it isn't like Italy are some great pressing side that give you no time on the ball.

Germany went through a period where they stressed pace and power over technique and their football suffered as a result. But they realized their error and changed their development approach quite a bit and the generation they have now speaks for the results.

England can do the same thing but I have my doubts whether they ever will as their mentality is different IMO.
Couldn't agree more about England's flawed player development. However, a big part of their miserable performance against Italy was coaching. The coach was playing an extremely conservative system, not unlike #hunterhockey. They kept their entire team behind the ball, didn't pressure at all, and never committed forward in numbers. You can't expect them to be able to hold the ball if they're attacking with only 3-4 players.

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06-26-2012, 12:24 PM
  #233
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Great way to put it! Not only are they a team of Brooks Laichs, they are a team of Brooks Laich's on big ice.

Ronaldniho = Ovechkin. Absolutely dominant player for several seasons, before getting fat, lazy, and inevitable declining.
Nothing to do with football for a sec, but I really resent that remark about "Ovechkin getting fat and lazy". You'd get fat and lazy too if you had to play the ridiculously long, marathon like NHL seasons year after year after year after year. It has the effect of draining all the life out of the stars. Ovechkin is a once in a generational talent, but I think that he just getting burnt out by the greedy NHL and its moronically long seasons that destroys players, degrades the quality of play, and leaves the fans bored for 90% of the schedule.
I seriously hope Ovechkin suffers a moderate injury at some point so he can REST ( which is what he desperately needs) and come back as his old self.

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06-26-2012, 12:57 PM
  #234
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I think that's Englands most glaring need, talented and creative midfielders. They gave the ball up all over the place. Other than Gerrard, below par midfield play.

I honestly don't see why Milner is even in the lineup. I've watched him a lot over the past year with City and I just don't see anything great out of him. I'd take Walcott on wing if he could stay healthy.

Until England gets guys who can play the possession style of the worlds best clubs, they're a quarterfinal team.

Still, I've enjoyed almost every game in the Euro's so far.


Joe Hart, fantastic goalie, but dude was terrible in the penalties. He barely sniffed a single shot.


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06-26-2012, 01:01 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Brave Sir Robin View Post
Couldn't agree more about England's flawed player development. However, a big part of their miserable performance against Italy was coaching. The coach was playing an extremely conservative system, not unlike #hunterhockey. They kept their entire team behind the ball, didn't pressure at all, and never committed forward in numbers. You can't expect them to be able to hold the ball if they're attacking with only 3-4 players.
Come on...the guy came in on short notice with his best player suspended and lots of injuries. I think he did a pretty damn good job considering.

Honestly, if England doesn't play the same style that won Chelsea the Champions League, they probably don't get out of their group.

They do need to change mentality and style at some point but they need talent to develop to play that style.

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06-26-2012, 06:11 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by sycamore View Post
Nothing to do with football for a sec, but I really resent that remark about "Ovechkin getting fat and lazy". You'd get fat and lazy too if you had to play the ridiculously long, marathon like NHL seasons year after year after year after year. It has the effect of draining all the life out of the stars. Ovechkin is a once in a generational talent, but I think that he just getting burnt out by the greedy NHL and its moronically long seasons that destroys players, degrades the quality of play, and leaves the fans bored for 90% of the schedule.
I seriously hope Ovechkin suffers a moderate injury at some point so he can REST ( which is what he desperately needs) and come back as his old self.
Well, actually I used the phrase "fat and lazy" more to refer to Ronaldinho. However, it still applies to Ovi, only to a lesser extent. Forgive me, for I don't have a lot of sympathy for the hardships of professional athletes (unless we're talking about serious injuries). Ovi get's paid 9.5mil per year to play hockey, works a lot less hours and has way more vacation time than a regular 9 to 5 employee.
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy
Come on...the guy came in on short notice with his best player suspended and lots of injuries. I think he did a pretty damn good job considering.

Honestly, if England doesn't play the same style that won Chelsea the Champions League, they probably don't get out of their group.

They do need to change mentality and style at some point but they need talent to develop to play that style.
I don't blame England for playing the way they did. At the end of their day the objective is to win games. Yet, from my perspective as a neutral spectator(not an England fan), their games were extremely boring.

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06-26-2012, 07:03 PM
  #237
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If you take the ratio of int'l performance over domestic league economic power, England sucks at soccer, what is there to talk about

Here's what I find more interesting -- I hear more and more people complain about Barca/Spain's "boring" soccer, even calling it "anti-futbol".

These are teams displaying some of the most exquisite ball-control, passing, attacking movements in the history of the damn game, and it's called "boring"? How is it their fault that 99% of the time they make top teams look like soccer midgets? They are like a boxer that peppers his opponents with punches like Pacman, evades like Mayweather, and then knocks most of them out like, I dunno, Sugar Ray. And people are starting to call it boring because the other guys can't land a punch even though they are the ones being chased around the rink!

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06-26-2012, 08:03 PM
  #238
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Really? Who on earth is saying the tiki-taka of Barca/Spain is boring? It's a marvel to watch to this fan. It's only boring for fans of their opponants since they can't get the ball. To me the technical skill differential is just frightening.

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06-27-2012, 09:07 AM
  #239
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Here's what I find more interesting -- I hear more and more people complain about Barca/Spain's "boring" soccer, even calling it "anti-futbol".
I'm sorry but anyone who would say that clearly knows nothing about the game. It is as simple as that and not even worth discussing IMO.

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06-27-2012, 09:34 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by artilector View Post

Here's what I find more interesting -- I hear more and more people complain about Barca/Spain's "boring" soccer, even calling it "anti-futbol".

These are teams displaying some of the most exquisite ball-control, passing, attacking movements in the history of the damn game, and it's called "boring"? How is it their fault that 99% of the time they make top teams look like soccer midgets? They are like a boxer that peppers his opponents with punches like Pacman, evades like Mayweather, and then knocks most of them out like, I dunno, Sugar Ray. And people are starting to call it boring because the other guys can't land a punch even though they are the ones being chased around the rink!
Well it is so time to differentiate between Spain and Barcelona here. Barca not just play posession fottball but attack attack attack and try to find ways to score a goal.
That football is very attractive

To be honest the spanisch especially in the 1/4 final just played a possession football and only did what they needed to create 2-3 chances. Than the even play without a forward and just pack the midfield. I am sorry but that even so technically nice is not attractive.
Reminds me a bit of some of the dull possession football Bayern played when Van Gaal was in charge. Against France and Croatia I did not see much flair or ideas. All great passers but no dribblings limited vertical balls...

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06-27-2012, 01:31 PM
  #241
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Negredo is getting the start for Spain up front it seems. I kind of doubt Portugal prepared for that...

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06-27-2012, 05:39 PM
  #242
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0-0 tie in the SEMIFINALS decided by penalty kicks. Spains "wins", if you want to call it that.

Ugh. No wonder most Americans remain prejudiced towards soccer.

I wonder why it is in these international tournaments that the games seem to get progressively worse as the tournament goes on.

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06-27-2012, 05:41 PM
  #243
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Spain has looked a shadow of itself.

Incidentally, I think the more conservative style of Spain (vs. Barca) is in part due to the coach trying to keep things smooth and keep all the best players in the lineup, which means its like 6 central midfielders that interfere with each other and with nobody to stretch the defense. And they still win, cause they're all so damn good.

You can see when a guy like Pedro comes on, flanks start to come alive, they look a lot more dangerous..

Anyway, I almost wanted Portugal to go through for how well they neutralized Spain for most of the game, but you get the feeling that Portugal is destined to be forever a bridesmaid. Lots of good players, but too small a country to produce enough of them in any single generation. Came close at the end of Figo's team time, though..

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06-27-2012, 05:56 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by sycamore View Post
0-0 tie in the SEMIFINALS decided by penalty kicks. Spains "wins", if you want to call it that.

Ugh. No wonder most Americans remain prejudiced towards soccer.

I wonder why it is in these international tournaments that the games seem to get progressively worse as the tournament goes on.
Unlike other sports, you can't have players keep running 100 yards back n forth forever.

As a person that grew up watching soccer almost exclusively, I have no problem admitting that a sport like basketball is objectively a much better "spectacle" when you're talking about an average game between good teams.

What makes soccer exceptional is the uniqueness of various teams that reflects national character, unmatched international rivalries (on the order of Canada-Russia in hockey), unequaled drama of once-in-4-years tourneys, individual skill.. so a good match between top teams dwarfs any other sports event. But you have to wait for it, and it's admittedly an acquired taste. In some ways like baseball for Europeans.. knowledge of history is a huge part of the enjoyment.

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06-27-2012, 06:39 PM
  #245
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Spain has looked a shadow of itself.

Incidentally, I think the more conservative style of Spain (vs. Barca) is in part due to the coach trying to keep things smooth and keep all the best players in the lineup, which means its like 6 central midfielders that interfere with each other and with nobody to stretch the defense. And they still win, cause they're all so damn good.

You can see when a guy like Pedro comes on, flanks start to come alive, they look a lot more dangerous..

Anyway, I almost wanted Portugal to go through for how well they neutralized Spain for most of the game, but you get the feeling that Portugal is destined to be forever a bridesmaid. Lots of good players, but too small a country to produce enough of them in any single generation. Came close at the end of Figo's team time, though..
It's hard to criticize the Spain's lineup when they keep winning. Personally, I've always felt that their player selections are severely limited by their style of play. Players that don't excel at tiki-taka passing, like Navas or Llorente don't get to start.

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06-27-2012, 06:43 PM
  #246
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Unlike other sports, you can't have players keep running 100 yards back n forth forever.

As a person that grew up watching soccer almost exclusively, I have no problem admitting that a sport like basketball is objectively a much better "spectacle" when you're talking about an average game between good teams.

What makes soccer exceptional is the uniqueness of various teams that reflects national character, unmatched international rivalries (on the order of Canada-Russia in hockey), unequaled drama of once-in-4-years tourneys, individual skill.. so a good match between top teams dwarfs any other sports event. But you have to wait for it, and it's admittedly an acquired taste. In some ways like baseball for Europeans.. knowledge of history is a huge part of the enjoyment.
Artilector, I totally agree with your points about soccer, and quite frankly the World Cup is my favorite sporting spectacle of all, even ahead of hockey. But there is no question you see this disturbing trend in the international tournaments where the games start out exciting, then get progressively worse as the tournament wears on. One thing is the whole pk thing, it would be so much more fun if the games could be decided by the golden goal. I'm not sure what other changes can be made, but seeing a semifinal like today or a final like the World Cup in 2006 (between Italy and France) is just terrible for the game and turns a lot of potential fans off to the sport. Something needs to be done.

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06-27-2012, 06:53 PM
  #247
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Artilector, I totally agree with your points about soccer, and quite frankly the World Cup is my favorite sporting spectacle of all, even ahead of hockey. But there is no question you see this disturbing trend in the international tournaments where the games start out exciting, then get progressively worse as the tournament wears on. One thing is the whole pk thing, it would be so much more fun if the games could be decided by the golden goal. I'm not sure what other changes can be made, but seeing a semifinal like today or a final like the World Cup in 2006 (between Italy and France) is just terrible for the game and turns a lot of potential fans off to the sport. Something needs to be done.
I don't think anything can be done.. same as hockey, I find playoff hockey mostly boring (when it doesn't involve teams that I specifically care for) -- modern players close space down FAST, and with better flow of information modern tactics teach them exactly how to do that. So every year, it seems like there's less space for creative players and their skill.

And I don't think you can do anything about that unless you start tinkering with the basic parameters of the game -- number of players, field size, goal size. I'd be fine with experimenting with those things, but the reality is -- it's unthinkable for most people. So I guess one just has to develop more appreciation for the rare teams that do play attractive style, like Barca in soccer, or like the Caps used to be, lol.

edit: another point to make is that national teams are now obviously inferior to the best club teams (which are basically all-star teams of world talent now). And the explanation is simple -- club teams actually have time to develop links between players, which are especially crucial for constructive play/offense. So Barcelona's offense is a lot more polished than Team Spain, etc. On the other hand it's not as hard to get 11 guys to defend well. So if you want great soccer, watch Champions League -- the big international events bring more of the drama, flavor and history of soccer, IMO.


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06-27-2012, 08:05 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by sycamore View Post
0-0 tie in the SEMIFINALS decided by penalty kicks. Spains "wins", if you want to call it that.

Ugh. No wonder most Americans remain prejudiced towards soccer.

I wonder why it is in these international tournaments that the games seem to get progressively worse as the tournament goes on.
I have to agree with you. I'm sure nobody wants to see that game (0-0 on kicks). I mean score something...it's too bad. How do two talent-laden and creative teams manage to score dick? Frustrating for this fan.

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06-27-2012, 08:06 PM
  #249
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Great game earlier today.

Wanted Portugal to win sooooo bad because of the amount of bandwagon Spain fans I know.

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06-27-2012, 08:11 PM
  #250
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I was pulling for Portugal myself....Oh well, hopefully Germany puts the beatdown on the next two games.

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